Cycling quotation

Justín Käse said:

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just the
sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle when they
ultimately eat street themselves.
--

JK

I was at a party last night and I was so curious about this falling
issue that I asked alot of people I knew if they believe learning how
to fall helped my son. Also if there is a proper way to at least try
to fall if you have the time to think. It was a definite yes from
everyone. And this was a reunion of people who have all played sports
and still do.

Then I remembered how many spills my husband took on his motorcycle
when he was young. Not all his fault, alot of them were due to traffic
accidents ahead of him. He said basically the same thing you said. If
a person does not think about falling or try to learn to fall correctly
they are [censored]. Sometimes there is absolutely no time to prepare
for the moment they eat street....but in many instances there is.

If you have one instance where knowing how to fall will help you, its
worth learning how to fall. That one instance may prevent an
injury...or prevent a more serious injury. I could not find one person
who believed you should not take the time to think about the fact that
you could fall while riding. I think the boy scouts are right.....BE
PREPARED...for anything...even if its to fast to react...at times you
will have a reaction time. It may save a few months off your bike.

I can't think of one sport I played or my kids played where they did
not stress safety, falling and learning to protect yourself.
Maggie

Quoted message said:

Rich said:

Maggie said:

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team.

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions). I haven't fallen while riding on
pavement in the last 15 years.

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

I'm with Rich. I never fall/crash -- at least I haven't in many years of
riding. I don't know how much riding is "much", but I ride several
thousands of miles in a typical year -- from urban to rural, in all
weather (including snow) and all times (including all-night rides), solo
and group.

Off-road, I have fallen/crashed many times sustaining many bad bruises,
a couple of cases of broken ribs and a chipped bone in my elbow.

Most of the people I ride with seem to consider a crash every year or so
"normal". Studies of club riders confirm this "normalcy" with statistics.

The secret of not crashing is a combination of skills and safe
practices. Virtually all of the crashes I have seen on group rides were
entirely and easily avoidable. I try very hard to learn from my close
calls and the mistakes I see others make -- it seems to work. My wife,
who has been mountain biking for as many years as I have, has never
crashed badly -- she just doesn't push things as hard, especially in the
learning curve. Most of my MTB crashes (and all the bad ones) were
really caused by poor judgment -- i.e. self-inflicted -- and were easily
avoidable.

Most road crashes are from hitting something in the road or from road
surface irregularities. Simple cure -- pay attention! Often rider
ignorance is a contributing factor -- didn't know about sand or wet
metal/paint surfaces -- ditto for storm drains, rr/trolley tracks, black
ice or potholes in puddles. On a group ride yesterday, I was reminded
again of how few cyclists understand the hazard of sticks and branches
in the road being kicked up into the spokes of a following rider. People
who ride thousands of miles a year should know these things, crashes are
mostly a tax on ignorance.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I've had one moving, on-road fall since I started cycling as a
dedicated adult. That was at about 3 mph.

My last wipeout was a couple of years ago, after
a bad landing while getting some air off a street
feature that afforded a sort of ramp.

One way to avoid falls is: don't do tricks ;-)

It seems the causes of many falls are so commonplace
as to be well-documented -- crossing wet RR tracks at
the wrong angle, fishtailing on piles of wet leaves,
losing traction on sandy patches, things that cause
front wheels to jam, etc. So one can avoid at least
some falls by being aware of these causes. I guess
that counts as "preparation". But even then, falls
can still happen. I have no desire to practice
falling, though.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

On 2 Oct 2005 06:41:17 -0700, "Maggie" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Justín Käse said:

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just the
sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle when they
ultimately eat street themselves.
--

JK

I was at a party last night and I was so curious about this falling
issue that I asked alot of people I knew if they believe learning how
to fall helped my son. Also if there is a proper way to at least try
to fall if you have the time to think. It was a definite yes from
everyone. And this was a reunion of people who have all played sports
and still do.

And of course you didn't influence those answers, by the way you asked
the question, or did you? Not that it matters, why would anyone
disagree with the above, it is just common sense.

Quoted message said:

Then I remembered how many spills my husband took on his motorcycle
when he was young. Not all his fault, alot of them were due to traffic
accidents ahead of him. He said basically the same thing you said. If
a person does not think about falling or try to learn to fall correctly
they are [censored].

Oh, because I haven't given any thought to falling, that makes me an
[censored]. Generally being unaware or unprepared, has nothing to do with
being an [censored]. Geez Maggie, were you an [censored], when you were
posting your ignorance, on a regular basis. well, actually you may
have been, a few times, but it wasn't because of your ignorance, but
your attitude.

Be prepared is always a good thing, but when it comes to falling, if
you have time to prepare for the fall, you may have time to prevent
it.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes there is absolutely no time to prepare
for the moment they eat street....but in many instances there is.

And you know this, because you are now an experienced expert, on this
topic? In my non expert opinion, there is seldom time to prepare. In
reality, either through instinct, or acquired knowledge, your body
just reacts. No thought, no planning, just a reaction.

Quoted message said:

If you have one instance where knowing how to fall will help you, its
worth learning how to fall. That one instance may prevent an
injury...or prevent a more serious injury.

If I recall correctly, you don't always wear a helmet, but your above
arguement, supports wearing one. "If you have one instance".
[Frank, relax, I'm not advocating a helmet here, I'm pointing out an
inconsistency, in Maggie's arguement.]

Quoted message said:

I could not find one person
who believed you should not take the time to think about the fact that
you could fall while riding. I think the boy scouts are right.....BE
PREPARED...for anything...even if its to fast to react...at times you
will have a reaction time. It may save a few months off your bike.

I can't think of one sport I played or my kids played where they did
not stress safety, falling and learning to protect yourself.
Maggie

___________________________________________________________

Rather than answer two of your posts, on the same topic, below is part
of your answer to Rich, in an earlier post:

Quoted message said:

" It boggles my mind that a simple statement such as "learning to fall" would lead
to stories of people WHO NEVER FALL!! In my opinion, if you never
fell, you never rode. If you never fell, you probably never leave your
computer. You just post. "And thats all I'm gonna say bout that." "

It boggles your mind? Aren't you the one that delights in topics going
in odd directions.There are some people "WHO NEVER FALL!". And then
there are those of us who seldom fall.
In 9000+ miles, I have been on the ground twice. Once because my chain
dropped of to the inside of the smallest chainring, on a hill. I
couldn't clip out in time. The second was when an old woman did a
U-turn in front of me causing me to slam into her rear quarter panel.

You seem to fall more than the average rider, for the number of miles
that you"ve ridden. Besides learning to fall, it might be a good idea
to learn how to ride. So there - "And thats all I'm gonna say bout
that."

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Starr said:

You seem to fall more than the average rider, for the number of miles
that you"ve ridden. Besides learning to fall, it might be a good idea
to learn how to ride. So there - "And thats all I'm gonna say bout
that."

Life is Good!
Jeff

I do fall alot, but I ride alot as well. I started my life trying to
be a dancer and because of an accident I injured my ankle which has
haunted me my whole life. Maybe that is why falling is an issue for
me. That fall as a dancer was unnecessary and could have been less
serious if I had landed differently. I didn't think.

I am in a cycling club and I am trying to become a better cyclist. I
don't know how much the average rider falls, but I probably do fall
alot. I do not claim to be an experienced rider. I ride. I do
charity rides. I am proud of doing two 50 miles rides. My goal was to
do a century. I commute by bike to work and I enjoy it. I started
riding at 50, give me a break. I've been put in my place one more
time. I should go back to shopping and stay the hell off the bike.
Maybe I do fall too much. Maybe I am pushing my luck. My injury when I
was 17 took me out of the career I dreamed about. If I keep falling off
my bike I may end up dead.

If all of you fall so few times, and I fall alot, maybe the universe is
trying to tell me to take up another sport before I kill myself. I
could always go back to playing tennis. I never fell doing that.
Lately I have been thinking about golf. But for my next birthday, my
kids are going to take me skydiving. Can you imagine. They said if 80
year olds can do it, I can do it as well. Plus I will be strapped to
some young good looking instructor. What more can I ask for? ;-)

Maggie

http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/
http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbuset/tahoe2004.html
http://www.walkamerica.org/personal_page.asp?w=272039
http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbuset/temporarypreviewfile.html?1100212880789

Maggie

In article <[email hidden]>,

Maggie said:

If all of you fall so few times, and I fall alot, maybe the universe is
trying to tell me to take up another sport before I kill myself.

Nah, it's just gravity.

I know a guy who's an excellent swimmer. I actually
saw him fall out of a swimming pool once.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Maggie <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Jeff Starr wrote:
:>>
:>> You seem to fall more than the average rider, for the number of
:>> miles
:>> that you"ve ridden. Besides learning to fall, it might be a good
:>> idea
:>> to learn how to ride. So there - "And thats all I'm gonna say bout
:>> that."
:>>
:>>
:>> Life is Good!
:>> Jeff
:>
:> I do fall alot, but I ride alot as well. I started my life trying to
:> be a dancer and because of an accident I injured my ankle which has
:> haunted me my whole life. Maybe that is why falling is an issue for
:> me. That fall as a dancer was unnecessary and could have been less
:> serious if I had landed differently. I didn't think.
:>
:> I am in a cycling club and I am trying to become a better cyclist. I
:> don't know how much the average rider falls, but I probably do fall
:> alot. I do not claim to be an experienced rider. I ride. I do
:> charity rides. I am proud of doing two 50 miles rides. My goal was
:> to
:> do a century. I commute by bike to work and I enjoy it. I started
:> riding at 50, give me a break. I've been put in my place one more
:> time. I should go back to shopping and stay the hell off the bike.
:> Maybe I do fall too much. Maybe I am pushing my luck. My injury
:> when I
:> was 17 took me out of the career I dreamed about. If I keep falling
:> off
:> my bike I may end up dead.
:>
:> If all of you fall so few times, and I fall alot, maybe the universe
:> is trying to tell me to take up another sport before I kill myself.
:> I
:> could always go back to playing tennis. I never fell doing that.
:> Lately I have been thinking about golf. But for my next birthday, my
:> kids are going to take me skydiving. Can you imagine. They said if
:> 80
:> year olds can do it, I can do it as well. Plus I will be strapped to
:> some young good looking instructor. What more can I ask for? ;-)
:>
:> Maggie

Yeah....quit riding your bike because you fall a lot...then go fall out of
an airplane....perfect Maggielogic. 🙂

Roger Zoul said:

Yeah....quit riding your bike because you fall a lot...then go fall out of
an airplane....perfect Maggielogic. 🙂

Maggie and Logic do not belong together baby. If I quit riding what
will I do with my three bikes...sell them on e-bay with my Gucci
purses?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63852&item=6781898245

I guess I better keep riding and falling......but jumping out of a
plane strapped to a cute young instructor is something to consider. I
may die, but I will die happy. ;-)

Maggie...the illogical

Jeff Starr wrote:
Geez Maggie, were you an [censored], when you were

Quoted message said:

posting your ignorance, on a regular basis. well, actually you may
have been, a few times, but it wasn't because of your ignorance, but
your attitude.

Life is Good!
Jeff

Jeff Darling,

I just read the [censored] part.....Are you trying to say I have an
attitude......I'm hurt. I don't have an attitude, I have something
called....."speak before you think disease". It is a condition. Now
don't you think you should be a little kinder to people with
disabilities? Come on Jeffy. Be nice to me. ;-) Maggie wuvs you.
I'll give you a good deal on a designer purse. Check me out on e-bay.
This was a cute little Gucci.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63852&item=6781898245

Maggie

http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/
http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbuset/tahoe2004.html
http://www.geocities.com/lindaannbuset/temporarypreviewfile.html?1100...

Maggie said:

I was speaking of a DEFENSIVE DRIVING COURSE....

Defensive driving courses teach you how to avoid accidents. If you rode
a bike in such a manner, you shouldn't be falling.

Maggie said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have had
and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Jobst Brandt

So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect myself
when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall off my
bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if I take
great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if I am going
to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I still see a
difference in my kids.....my daughter will fall and break a bone, my
son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just dumb luck???

Maggie

I find that my training from judo has helped in a number of falls
although my impression is that it is of less use in falling with a
bicycle than, say, slipping and falling on ice. Still the "don't stick
your arm out" and "the tuck the head in" reflexes still seem to be of
some use.

John Kane
Kingston ON

Quoted message said:

an anonymous old geezer snipes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have
> had and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect
myself when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall
off my bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if
I take great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if
I am going to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I
still see a difference in my kids... my daughter will fall and
break a bone, my son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just
dumb luck???

Quoted message said:

I'm an old geezer that recently returned to bicycling after a decade
hiatus, and splurged for one of those full suspension jobs, but with
a compromise made for a cushion seat. Well, not being used to
having the whole bike frame sink during mounting, my first maneuver
was the famed "gravity check". My reaction was to hold my arm away
from the LZ and hold my head up such that I kind of rolled on the
ground once and sprang right back up to my feet, surprising the
group young bike guys watching. This comes from an instinct
developed during years of informal soccer play, where tripping is
only illegal during an official match with referees present. <g>

So how fast were you going and what sort of asphalt or concrete was
your landing spot? Semi-static roll-overs don't count as a crash in
my book. I haven't seen any riders crash on a descent and spring up
and run at 20mph after hitting the pavement. In criteriums most
crashes are the end of the event for the one who fell and they don't
sprint away from the landing spot.

In the context of Maggie's comments I doubt that we are going to see
her in a crit, anymore than anyone is going to see me in one. A fall
on the street at 15-25km/hr is not quite the same thing as 80km/hr in a
race.

I suspect you are right at higher speeds but at a utility cyclist's
speed leaving the local grocery store, I don't see why some training in
how to fall would not likely help.

And yes it is always better not to fall but then we can get lulled into
a false sense of security and not expect that piece of roadway that was
perfectly solid when we rode to work to have colapsed by 5:00 due to
the rainstorm 3 days before.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just
the sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle
when they ultimately eat street themselves.

I think you'll need to go through the sequence of how you practice
crashing on a descent, be that off or on road, so that it makes some
sense. I'm unclear on your "arm away from the LZ" reference and what
you were doing to initiate the "crash" that you describe. If you are
crashing at 10mph you should first practice managing that speed
without falling. At higher speeds, the ones where significant
injuries occur, practicing is illusory. You might also consider
reviewing:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Jobst Brandt

John Kane
Kingston ON

Maggie <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> Roger Zoul wrote:
:>> Yeah....quit riding your bike because you fall a lot...then go fall
:>> out of an airplane....perfect Maggielogic. 🙂
:>
:>
:> Maggie and Logic do not belong together baby. If I quit riding what
:> will I do with my three bikes...sell them on e-bay with my Gucci
:> purses?
:>
:>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=63852&item=6781898245
:>
:> I guess I better keep riding and falling......but jumping out of a
:> plane strapped to a cute young instructor is something to consider. I
:> may die, but I will die happy. ;-)
:>

Your hubby will no doubt ruin that for ya...

:> Maggie...the illogical

Rich said:

Maggie said:

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team.

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions). I haven't fallen while riding on
pavement in the last 15 years.

Rich

I have to agree here. In gymnastics falling is part of the training. The
last fall I had was last year barreling down a dirt path and hitting
very loose sand at the bottom. I went over the bars without brakes and
face down into the sand. You can't plan things like that. My
grandchildren thought I killed myself until I got up spitting sand and
then deciding it was a good time to return home and clean the bike and
myself. One minute later a hotshot on a motorcycle did exactly the same
thing, hitting the 'quicksand' trap. He too got up spitting sand while
we applauded, then explained why we were laughing at him. He got the
bike started and rode off a bit slower. Fortunately it was sand and not
rocks or traffic we fell into.
Bill

Rich said:

Quoted message said:

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

I ride between 700 and 1000 road miles a year. I'm not sure why you'd
expect to fall? Do you expect to wreck your car as well?

Only 700 to 1,000?

Quoted message said:

I do fall quite often on my MTB off road, but I don't consider that
unexpected.

Me too, but then it is usually caused from going way too fast downhill.
Bill

Quoted message said:

Rich

Quoted message said:

Maggie who? writes:

It was once popular to refer to the skill of the "tuck and roll
technique" an imagined sequence that riders visualized.

That was supposed to be for parachutists. When I was about ten I used to
jump of the roof of my house and do a "tuck and roll", but that was
planned well in advance of jumping. You can't plan a bike fall.
Bill
The reason

Quoted message said:

for falling is rarely something one anticipates or is aware of more
than a few milliseconds before it occurs. On the other hand, one can
often control what hits the ground first in a lowside crashes, the
more benign type and the one from which many of the tales of crashing
advice are derived. Lowside falls are when the wheels slide out from
under the rider in a curve in contrast to the highside, in which the
rider, banked over in a curve, flips over to the outside of that
curve.

I believe there is a basic difference in approach. If one has learned
to ride at an early age and develops experience of these things when
broken bones are uncommon and the falls are from a lower elevation,
the "art" of hitting the ground is self evident fairly soon. It is
not something one wants to learn later in life because injuries are
more severe and probably have a reverse effect on the "learner".

Quoted message said:

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have had
and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Jobst Brandt

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

I ride between 700 and 1000 road miles a year. I'm not sure why you'd
expect to fall? Do you expect to wreck your car as well?

Only 700 to 1,000?

Those are statute miles, not baka miles. It equates to 7,000-10,000
baka miles. All uphill.

Rich

Rich said:

Bill said:

Quoted message said:

I ride between 700 and 1000 road miles a year. I'm not sure why
you'd expect to fall? Do you expect to wreck your car as well?

Only 700 to 1,000?

Those are statute miles, not baka miles. It equates to 7,000-10,000
baka miles. All uphill.

Rich

You mean you have your wife pick you up at the top of the hill because
you are too tired to enjoy the coast down?
Bill

Tom Keats said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I've had one moving, on-road fall since I started cycling as a
dedicated adult. That was at about 3 mph.

My last wipeout was a couple of years ago, after
a bad landing while getting some air off a street
feature that afforded a sort of ramp.

One way to avoid falls is: don't do tricks ;-)

It seems the causes of many falls are so commonplace
as to be well-documented -- crossing wet RR tracks at
the wrong angle

Just so I can be sure: The correct angle is perpendicular to the
tracks, right?

Quoted message said:

fishtailing on piles of wet leaves,
losing traction on sandy patches, things that cause
front wheels to jam, etc. So one can avoid at least
some falls by being aware of these causes. I guess
that counts as "preparation". But even then, falls
can still happen. I have no desire to practice
falling, though.

I'm not going spend time posting as to why people should practice
falling. I don't know that they should. But, as an ex skateboarder, I
will confidently tell you that, in life in general, it's a handy skill
to have to avoid *minor* injuries. Knowing how to fall won't help much
if you get doored at 35 km/h -- unless perhaps you a stunt man and
REALLY know what you're doing, but even then I'd question it.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Rich said:

Maggie wrote:

> Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
> he was picked for the gymnastics team.

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions). I haven't fallen while riding on
pavement in the last 15 years.

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

I'm with Rich. I never fall/crash -- at least I haven't in many years of
riding. I don't know how much riding is "much", but I ride several
thousands of miles in a typical year -- from urban to rural, in all
weather (including snow) and all times (including all-night rides), solo
and group.

I never get flats...should I not carry my pump/kit/tools with me?
That's sort of a joke, see my above post. [short version: knowing how
to fall is handy, but probably not worth the effort if you don't already
know]

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.