Minimum parts to upgrade to 10 spd?

With the cost of the upgrades you are looking at, getting a whole new
10sp bike would likely be a good move (save the older bike for a rain
bike). The prices on bikesdirect.com are so hard to beat these days -
usually a full bike for less than retail on a group.

damyth said:

I have a 8-spd Ultegra (6400) group on my bike from the mid 90's. I'm
no longer a spring chicken, but have been doing more hilly terrain
compared my "glory days" 🙂. From reading Sheldon Brown's site, it
seems I can get away with just upgrading the shift/brake levers,
cassette, and chain, for 10spd use?

Do I have this right? And if I use Campy levers, I'm likely to get
even better shifting than Shimano? (The concern is the "throw" on the
older Ultegra derailleur matched up with Campy shifter, as well as cog
spacing.)

If I have misinterpreted, what other parts would I need?

Ergo 10 speed levers, no other changes, and you can have an 8-speed
setup. When your cassette wears out, get a 9-speed chain, a 9-speed
cassette, and wire up your derailler with the "hubbub" system. Now you
have a more modern 9-speed system. I'm on that plan right now.

Oh, I didn't answer the original question about 10-speed upgrade. Sorry,
I don't know the cheap upgrade path to 10 speed.

I wonder if Sheldon will change his tune... he used to recommend odd
numbers of gears (7 or 9). http://tinyurl.com/74m6f

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

dvt wrote: > Ergo 10 speed levers, no other changes, and you can have
an 8-speed > setup. When your cassette wears out, get a 9-speed chain,
a 9-speed > cassette, and wire up your derailler with the "hubbub"
system. Now you > have a more modern 9-speed system. I'm on that plan
right now. Any (technical) reason why you did not consider a 10 speed
upgrade instead of 9? > -- > Dave > dvt at psu dot edu

dvt wrote: "Ergo 10 speed levers, no other changes, and you can have
an 8-speed setup. When your cassette wears out, get a 9-speed chain, a
9-speed cassette, and wire up your derailler with the "hubbub" system.
Now you have a more modern 9-speed system. I'm on that plan right now."
Any technical reason you did not consider a 10-spd upgrade instead of
a 9?

damyth said:

Any technical reason you did not consider a 10-spd upgrade instead of
a 9?

I don't like the Shimano front indexing. I do like my Shimano derailers
and hubs. So I wanted Ergo levers, but I didn't want to upgrade
everything else. A Shiftmate would probably make Ergos shift 10-speed
Shimano nicely, but using Ergos directly with an otherwise Shimano setup
seems much cleaner.

And this path is much less expensive for guys like me that don't want to
pay for Ultegra/Chorus and above. You can't get 10-speed in a lower
Shimano group yet.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Why don't you just get a wider range cassette and a long cage rear mech
if you're encountering more hills? Eight is plenty of gears back there
for most of us, you just need the right ones. Sram cassette 13-32 and a
long cage derailleur (I'd grab a 105 long cage) shouldn't cost you more
than sixty American bucks if you shop online.

Sorry if that's too inexpensive. :P

It's not 10 gears, but seems you're confusing more gears with lower
ones, or are you desperate to have more ratios inbetween as well?

maxo said:

Why don't you just get a wider range cassette and a long cage rear
mech if you're encountering more hills? Eight is plenty of gears back
there for most of us, you just need the right ones. Sram cassette
13-32 and a long cage derailleur (I'd grab a 105 long cage) shouldn't
cost you more than sixty American bucks if you shop online.

Sorry if that's too inexpensive. :P

It's not 10 gears, but seems you're confusing more gears with lower
ones, or are you desperate to have more ratios inbetween as well?

With an 8sp 12-25, my cadence was always too fast or too slow for
conditions, since there's a 2-tooth jump between cogs for all except the 13
and 12. When I upgraded to 10sp, the single-tooth difference allowed me to
ride more smoothly and efficiently.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

dvt said:

damyth said:

Any technical reason you did not consider a 10-spd upgrade instead of
a 9?

I don't like the Shimano front indexing. I do like my Shimano derailers
and hubs. So I wanted Ergo levers, but I didn't want to upgrade
everything else. A Shiftmate would probably make Ergos shift 10-speed
Shimano nicely, but using Ergos directly with an otherwise Shimano setup
seems much cleaner.

And this path is much less expensive for guys like me that don't want to
pay for Ultegra/Chorus and above. You can't get 10-speed in a lower
Shimano group yet.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

OK, maybe I'm missing something.... According to Sheldon, a Shimano
Ultegra 10 cassette fits just fine on an Ultegra 8 (steel) fw body.
And Ergo levers (including Centaur) have 10 speeds and theoretically
work with Shimano Ultegra 10 cassette.

Everything else on the drivetrain, FD, RD, cranks, chainrings, rear
hub, except chain, can remain unchanged.

So I get/upgrade the following:
- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
- Shimano 10-spd cassette
- Shimano 10 spd chain

I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

Phil said:

With an 8sp 12-25, my cadence was always too fast or too slow for
conditions, since there's a 2-tooth jump between cogs for all except the 13
and 12. When I upgraded to 10sp, the single-tooth difference allowed me to
ride more smoothly and efficiently.

Heck, that's nothing compared to the awful steps of a 12-32 cassette on
a late 80s mtb. LOL

I've made my own stacks before, usually a 12-18 with a couple "bail
out" gears that are much larger.

If the OP has the moolah then do it. I think a properly ratioed rear
end or even fitting a triple up front would be more cost effective, but
I'm a cheap basteward. :P

On 26 Sep 2005 16:42:02 -0700, "damyth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

OK, maybe I'm missing something.... According to Sheldon, a Shimano
Ultegra 10 cassette fits just fine on an Ultegra 8 (steel) fw body.
And Ergo levers (including Centaur) have 10 speeds and theoretically
work with Shimano Ultegra 10 cassette.

Everything else on the drivetrain, FD, RD, cranks, chainrings, rear
hub, except chain, can remain unchanged.

So I get/upgrade the following:
- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
- Shimano 10-spd cassette
- Shimano 10 spd chain

I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

No. Campy 10 levers with a Shimano derailer don't shift a Shimano 10s
cassette. Campy 10 levers with a Campy derailer, allegedly, *do* shift an
S10s cassette adequately, though, so add in a Campy derailer and you
should be all right. Alternatively, get STIs 10 rather than Ergo -- but if
you're contemplating this upgrade the Ergo part is probably the primary
motivation, right?

Jasper

In article <[email hidden]>,

damyth said:

dvt said:

damyth said:

Any technical reason you did not consider a 10-spd upgrade instead of
a 9?

I don't like the Shimano front indexing. I do like my Shimano derailers
and hubs. So I wanted Ergo levers, but I didn't want to upgrade
everything else. A Shiftmate would probably make Ergos shift 10-speed
Shimano nicely, but using Ergos directly with an otherwise Shimano setup
seems much cleaner.

And this path is much less expensive for guys like me that don't want to
pay for Ultegra/Chorus and above. You can't get 10-speed in a lower
Shimano group yet.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

OK, maybe I'm missing something.... According to Sheldon, a Shimano
Ultegra 10 cassette fits just fine on an Ultegra 8 (steel) fw body.
And Ergo levers (including Centaur) have 10 speeds and theoretically
work with Shimano Ultegra 10 cassette.

Everything else on the drivetrain, FD, RD, cranks, chainrings, rear
hub, except chain, can remain unchanged.

So I get/upgrade the following:
- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
- Shimano 10-spd cassette
- Shimano 10 spd chain

I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

Add a Campy rear derailer too. The front can stay, as Campy front
shifting isn't technically indexed: there's lots of clicks, and you can
shift and trim to heart's content.

The rear derailer, pace especially tricky figuring, should match the
shifter. post-2001 Campy 9-speed and all Campy 10-speed has the same
derailer pull ratio: 1.50. Earlier Campy 7-9 speed used 1.43. I'm
pulling this all out of my friend Dave's painfully gleaned spreadsheet.
The trick is to do the calculations such that the combinations of
shifter cable pull, derailer ratio, and cog spacing (C-C) work.

Here's a very simple example:

Campy 10 shifters pull 2.75 mm/shift, the derailer ratio is 1.5, which
means that the derailer moves 4.125mm per shift. Usefully, that's how
far apart Campy 10 cogs are.

Even more usefully, Shimano 10 cogs are also about 3.95 mm apart. You
can apparently get away with .2 mm of miss per cog, which shouldn't be
too surprising. That does add up to a bit less than a 2 mm error from
low to high, but in practice I think the shifting system can tolerate
that: it's within what Shimano would call the rideable range of
adjustment.

The fun example is this one: Campy 9-speed derailers from 2000 or
earlier use a 1.43 ratio. The newer Campy 9-speed shifters (2001+) have
a cable pull of 3.03 mm. Combine those two parts for a 4.33 mm derailer
movement per shift. Since Shimano 9-speed specifies 4.34 mm cog spacing,
and since .01 mm differences matter not a bit, this [censored] trio of
components work together perfectly.

The result is the drivetrain Dave specified for the Whip:

http://flickr.com/photos/rcousine/17347994/

It works really well. A season of successful racing on this bike has
made me a very happy man. Rebuildable shifters combined with the most
common style of wheels and cassettes out there. Best of both worlds.

It's not cool to admit it, but running Campy bits on this continent
imbues a bike with a certain cachet which is fun. And maybe more
importantly, I really like how these shifters feel. I could go back to
Shimano if necessary, but I ride Campy shifters by preference.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

damyth said:

I have a 8-spd Ultegra (6400) group on my bike from the mid 90's. I'm
no longer a spring chicken, but have been doing more hilly terrain
compared my "glory days" 🙂. From reading Sheldon Brown's site, it
seems I can get away with just upgrading the shift/brake levers,
cassette, and chain, for 10spd use?

Do I have this right? And if I use Campy levers, I'm likely to get
even better shifting than Shimano? (The concern is the "throw" on the
older Ultegra derailleur matched up with Campy shifter, as well as cog
spacing.)

If I have misinterpreted, what other parts would I need?

for shimano-lever set, cogset and chain

For Campagnolo lever set, rear der, shimano cogset and chain.

Campag levers are maintainable for the future, shimano are not. shimano
rear der will not wortk with Campag levers. Also, with a Campag rear
wheel, you can get a 13-29 cogset.

Andrew F Martin said:

With the cost of the upgrades you are looking at, getting a whole new
10sp bike would likely be a good move (save the older bike for a rain
bike). The prices on bikesdirect.com are so hard to beat these days -
usually a full bike for less than retail on a group.

An entire 10s bike for $315? Amazing!!(cost of Veloce 10s ergo, Campag
rear der, 10s chain and cogset)

If, for some reason you just want more gears, then yeah - 10sp Veloce
is a great deal. A lot has changed in ~10 years though, and I would
imagine that the gain from going to a full 2005 model bike vs. just
adding 2 more gears to a 1996 bike would be a substancial jump in
performance. $1000 for a full 2005 Ultegra 10sp bike - or $315 for
just shifters/cassette. I would guess that the extra 700 would be well
worth it.

There are so many cases of people sinking WAY too much money into an
antiquated bike. Sometimes, it's just better to start over.

maxo said:

Why don't you just get a wider range cassette and a long cage rear mech
if you're encountering more hills? Eight is plenty of gears back there
for most of us, you just need the right ones.

I don't need more gears. I needed to replace my worn-out STI shifters. I
wanted Ergo. I think I chose the least expensive path to my goal.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

damyth said:

So I get/upgrade the following:
- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
- Shimano 10-spd cassette
- Shimano 10 spd chain

I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

Quoted message said:

Add a Campy rear derailer too. The front can stay, as Campy front
shifting isn't technically indexed: there's lots of clicks, and you can
shift and trim to heart's content.

I'm with Ryan on this. Your Campy 10spd levers and a Shimano rear
derailler can be wired to work with Shimano 8 or 9 speed, *not* Shimano
10 speed.

Quoted message said:

I'm
pulling this all out of my friend Dave's painfully gleaned spreadsheet.
The trick is to do the calculations such that the combinations of
shifter cable pull, derailer ratio, and cog spacing (C-C) work.

It's a lot easier than that. Try this site:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

They have all the combinations sussed.

Quoted message said:

It's not cool to admit it, but running Campy bits on this continent
imbues a bike with a certain cachet which is fun.

Yes, that is true IMO. Anything that deviates from the norm will get a
wee bit more attention.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Rereading the OP, it looks like you are right - they are looking for
the minimum to change (they don't mention an exact reason why other
than maybe that he's doing hills). In that regards, all the discussion
of Veloce seems appropriate.

I just hate to see people come into a shop with their 1982 xyz bike
with 27" wheels and have the shop sell them on a bill of goods (usually
totaling well more than a nice new bike might be). Sometimes starting
over is a good idea.

dvt said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

damyth said:

So I get/upgrade the following:
- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
- Shimano 10-spd cassette
- Shimano 10 spd chain

I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

Quoted message said:

Add a Campy rear derailer too. The front can stay, as Campy front
shifting isn't technically indexed: there's lots of clicks, and you can
shift and trim to heart's content.

I'm with Ryan on this. Your Campy 10spd levers and a Shimano rear
derailler can be wired to work with Shimano 8 or 9 speed, *not* Shimano
10 speed.

Quoted message said:

I'm
pulling this all out of my friend Dave's painfully gleaned spreadsheet.
The trick is to do the calculations such that the combinations of
shifter cable pull, derailer ratio, and cog spacing (C-C) work.

It's a lot easier than that. Try this site:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

They have all the combinations sussed.

Quoted message said:

It's not cool to admit it, but running Campy bits on this continent
imbues a bike with a certain cachet which is fun.

Yes, that is true IMO. Anything that deviates from the norm will get a
wee bit more attention.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Thanks guys for the explanations and the links. What I really wanted
to know were the pull ratios/cable travel, so I can make an *informed*
decision on this.

My 8spd clusters were wearing out, and the question for me was whether
it was still wise to sink more money in a couple additional 8spd
cassettes (which I was always stuck at too high/low cadence) or upgrade
to more modern intermediate gearing. I was also disappointed at
Shimano brifters, which seemed to get gummed up whenever it rained or
washed the sweat off my bike once/month. Campy Veloce/Centaur was
looking very attractive due to its price point, and I figured that
Campy/Shimano weren't going to stuff more cogs back there anytime soon,
until they come out with continuous variable transmission 🙂

In any case, maybe when 105 10spd comes out Campy drivetrain prices
might become even lower.

damyth said:

dvt said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"damyth" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>So I get/upgrade the following:
>- Campy Centaur/Veloce levers
>- Shimano 10-spd cassette
>- Shimano 10 spd chain
>
>I'm done, right? 🙂 That's around $325 retail if I'm not mistaken.

Quoted message said:

Add a Campy rear derailer too. The front can stay, as Campy front
shifting isn't technically indexed: there's lots of clicks, and you can
shift and trim to heart's content.

I'm with Ryan on this. Your Campy 10spd levers and a Shimano rear
derailler can be wired to work with Shimano 8 or 9 speed, *not* Shimano
10 speed.

Quoted message said:

I'm
pulling this all out of my friend Dave's painfully gleaned spreadsheet.
The trick is to do the calculations such that the combinations of
shifter cable pull, derailer ratio, and cog spacing (C-C) work.

It's a lot easier than that. Try this site:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

They have all the combinations sussed.

Quoted message said:

It's not cool to admit it, but running Campy bits on this continent
imbues a bike with a certain cachet which is fun.

Yes, that is true IMO. Anything that deviates from the norm will get a
wee bit more attention.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

Thanks guys for the explanations and the links. What I really wanted
to know were the pull ratios/cable travel, so I can make an *informed*
decision on this.

My 8spd clusters were wearing out, and the question for me was whether
it was still wise to sink more money in a couple additional 8spd
cassettes (which I was always stuck at too high/low cadence) or upgrade
to more modern intermediate gearing. I was also disappointed at
Shimano brifters, which seemed to get gummed up whenever it rained or
washed the sweat off my bike once/month. Campy Veloce/Centaur was
looking very attractive due to its price point, and I figured that
Campy/Shimano weren't going to stuff more cogs back there anytime soon,
until they come out with continuous variable transmission 🙂

In any case, maybe when 105 10spd comes out Campy drivetrain prices
might become even lower.

You could buy the 10s Veloce shifters and another 8s cassette with a
wider range, and ride that way for a while with the Shimano derailleur.
Then buy the 10s cassette and Veloce derailleur next time you need to
replace cassette and chain.

I guess you missed the rumor here of Campy 12s. Also SRAM road brake
lever shifters.