soreness after workouts

In article <[email hidden]>,

michaelgg said:

My daughter is a division 1 swimmer and asked me to help her to find
out how to manage delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that she
develops post hard workourts, particularly post lifting. The soreness
gets in the way of her swim workouts...especially as the season wears
on...and she hasn't had the drops expected at the end of the
season...despite a taper. (I have thought that the taper isn't long
enough, but that is another story)

She is a big muscled young woman....this problem developed as she
matured in high school and seems to have has gotten worse as her muscle
mass has increased though the first 2 years of college.

I have read that DOMS is now thought NOT to be due to lactate build
up...rather it is due to muscle damage.

The recomendations I have read on previous posts here (I did a search)
include a good warm down, stretching post workout and cold showers for
20 minutes post workout. Massages also seem to help. I haven't read
about any nutritional interventions.

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. I am going to do a search
of the sports medicine literature to see if I can find anything.

I think all the things you mentioned are the standard ways of dealing
with the problem. I take an aspirin before bed if I am expecting
soreness. But it sounds like she is either lifting too heavy or not
often enough.

My search of the medical literature found a review in Sports Medicine
(33:145-64, 2003) that suggests that NSAIDs (e.g., ibuprofen) and
massage (within 2 hrs post exercise) have positive, but inconsistent
effects. Cold therapy, stretching, homeopathic interventions (other
supplements), ultrasound and electrical current interventions have no
effect in controlled trials.

There are some individual studies since 2003 that show a benefit of 10
g of protein supplementation post exercise (in army recruits),
antioxidants (cant get original article...not specified in the
abstract), prancreatic enzymes (1 study) and yoga (i study of 24
subjects randomized to yoga or no yoga).

Sounds like an asprin a day (or 400 mg ibuprofen 3 times a day) might
be the wisest way to go. she already uses protein bars post workouts.
Unfortunately, she is usually running to class post practices so
massage is not an option for her.

Many articles suggested that the main reason for soreness was indeed
muscle damage and many included recommendations for limiting soreness
inducing activities, especially if DOMS is occuring well after the
start of a season, when soreness is ubiquitous due to ramping up of
workouts.

Michael

"michaelgg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My search of the medical literature found a review in Sports Medicine
(33:145-64, 2003) that suggests that NSAIDs (e.g., ibuprofen) and
massage (within 2 hrs post exercise) have positive, but inconsistent
effects. Cold therapy, stretching, homeopathic interventions (other
supplements), ultrasound and electrical current interventions have no
effect in controlled trials.

There are some individual studies since 2003 that show a benefit of 10
g of protein supplementation post exercise (in army recruits),
antioxidants (cant get original article...not specified in the
abstract), prancreatic enzymes (1 study) and yoga (i study of 24
subjects randomized to yoga or no yoga).

Sounds like an asprin a day (or 400 mg ibuprofen 3 times a day) might
be the wisest way to go. she already uses protein bars post workouts.
Unfortunately, she is usually running to class post practices so
massage is not an option for her.

Many articles suggested that the main reason for soreness was indeed
muscle damage and many included recommendations for limiting soreness
inducing activities, especially if DOMS is occuring well after the
start of a season, when soreness is ubiquitous due to ramping up of
workouts.

Michael

As suggested ensuring adequate protein intake, and including stretching may
or may not help. Be careful about the use of ibuprofen however - I read a
study ealier this year that suggested NSAID's inhibited adaptation...while
it may alleviate the pain from DOMS, it may then take away from how well she
can adapt and recover from training, both strength and in the water. You may
give with one hand and again take away with the other using this approach.

As she is in a D1 program, I'm assuming her stregth training is administered
and directed by a strength coach. As such, she should sicuss this with the
strength coach assigned to the swimming team, or if it's administered by one
of the assistant coaches, speak to them. Failing adaptation (it sounds as
though this is her sophomore or subsequent year) this far into the program
sounds a little fishy, and perhaps they need to augment what she is doing
before she starts taking matters into her own hands. They will probably be
used to athletes who do not have a background in strength training, and may
be able to suggest the best way for her to maximise what the program is
designed to do while working on a more appropriate level.

Steve

"michaelgg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My daughter is a division 1 swimmer and asked me to help her to find
out how to manage delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that she
develops post hard workourts, particularly post lifting. The soreness
gets in the way of her swim workouts...especially as the season wears
on...and she hasn't had the drops expected at the end of the
season...despite a taper. (I have thought that the taper isn't long
enough, but that is another story)

She is a big muscled young woman....this problem developed as she
matured in high school and seems to have has gotten worse as her muscle
mass has increased though the first 2 years of college.

I have read that DOMS is now thought NOT to be due to lactate build
up...rather it is due to muscle damage.

The recomendations I have read on previous posts here (I did a search)
include a good warm down, stretching post workout and cold showers for
20 minutes post workout. Massages also seem to help. I haven't read
about any nutritional interventions.

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. I am going to do a search
of the sports medicine literature to see if I can find anything.

Thanks!

Michael

In my experience when I hit a muscle group 3 or more times a week DOMS go away. Even after training
for months at a time if I drop the frequency to 1 or 2 times a week, they invariably return. I have
read that DOMS may be lactic acid build up, muscle damage, or connective tissue trauma. All of those
should respond well to heat therapy. So if she's got access to a whirlpool get in it for 5-10
minutes post workout. That's worked well for me in the past. Good luck.

"michaelgg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My daughter is a division 1 swimmer and asked me to help her to find
out how to manage delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) that she
develops post hard workourts, particularly post lifting. The soreness
gets in the way of her swim workouts...especially as the season wears
on...and she hasn't had the drops expected at the end of the
season...despite a taper. (I have thought that the taper isn't long
enough, but that is another story)

She is a big muscled young woman....this problem developed as she
matured in high school and seems to have has gotten worse as her muscle
mass has increased though the first 2 years of college.

I have read that DOMS is now thought NOT to be due to lactate build
up...rather it is due to muscle damage.

The recomendations I have read on previous posts here (I did a search)
include a good warm down, stretching post workout and cold showers for
20 minutes post workout. Massages also seem to help. I haven't read
about any nutritional interventions.

Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated. I am going to do a search
of the sports medicine literature to see if I can find anything.

Thanks!

Michael

In my experience when I hit a muscle group 3 or more times a week DOMS go away. Even after training
for months at a time if I drop the frequency to 1 or 2 times a week, they invariably return. I have
read that DOMS may be lactic acid build up, muscle damage, or connective tissue trauma. All of those
should respond well to heat therapy. So if she's got access to a whirlpool get in it for 5-10
minutes post workout. That's worked well for me in the past. Good luck.

Drop the weight training.

You said she's heavily muscled, so the ability of her body to make
"inroads" will far surpass what her other teamates can do. Weight
training is know to cause small tears in the muscle fibers during the
workout - once again, her ability to tear her muscles down will exceed
her teamates. Especially if she is an "alpha" trainee capable of a
lot of work in the iron room. Look at the problem simply - she
certainly can't drop swimming from her program, so what are you going
to monkey with? Of course I realize what her coaches want may be
totally different. You'll have to talk to them about that, or simply
get your daughter to go less hard in the gym. I assume they're not
watching her every minute.

Eric

PS the weight training, assuming its continued to the end of the season
would also explain her lack of maximum responese to the taper - there's
just too much going on for her body to recover from.

Thanks, Steve

She has a strength coach....he pushes her pretty hard though...and she
is the type to give as much as she can....I think he is using her as an
example...esp her legs...she can squat more than any of the women on
the team and half of the men!

He has not given her any help with the recovery except to recommend
extra gatorade

I think she needs to talk with him..

Michael

Yes, Eric...she is an "alpha"...she thrives in the weight room and on
dryland...can out sit up anyone.

In the water, she works hard as well....maybe too hard....

The weight training is required...though I think she needs to back off
and take it easier.....that is hard for her...but I think she can...she
needs to talk with her coach...he is not easy to talk with...but this
is important for her.

Thanks for your input.

michael

thanks, tom

I, too, thought heat might help...i am heavily muscled too and it
helped me after weight training. She is doing wt training 3 times per
week...tuesday, thurs and sat then goes right into the pool....

there is no whirlpool or jacuzzi in the facility, but she can take a
hot shower.

Michael

"michaelgg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

thanks, tom

I, too, thought heat might help...i am heavily muscled too and it
helped me after weight training. She is doing wt training 3 times per
week...tuesday, thurs and sat then goes right into the pool....

there is no whirlpool or jacuzzi in the facility, but she can take a
hot shower.

Michael

The heat can come in the form of whirlpool, sauna, hot shower, even cardio, but swimming in a pool
may not raise her temp enough to be therapeutic. If she's doing 3x week weight training, (the same
muscles) DOMS *should* ease up after a few weeks. I wouldn't stop the weights unless she's still
sore the next time she trains, and then only if she's unable to train with the same intensity.

diablo said:

"michaelgg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My search of the medical literature found a review in Sports Medicine
(33:145-64, 2003) that suggests that NSAIDs (e.g., ibuprofen) and
massage (within 2 hrs post exercise) have positive, but inconsistent
effects. Cold therapy, stretching, homeopathic interventions (other
supplements), ultrasound and electrical current interventions have no
effect in controlled trials.

There are some individual studies since 2003 that show a benefit of 10
g of protein supplementation post exercise (in army recruits),
antioxidants (cant get original article...not specified in the
abstract), prancreatic enzymes (1 study) and yoga (i study of 24
subjects randomized to yoga or no yoga).

Sounds like an asprin a day (or 400 mg ibuprofen 3 times a day) might
be the wisest way to go. she already uses protein bars post workouts.
Unfortunately, she is usually running to class post practices so
massage is not an option for her.

Many articles suggested that the main reason for soreness was indeed
muscle damage and many included recommendations for limiting soreness
inducing activities, especially if DOMS is occuring well after the
start of a season, when soreness is ubiquitous due to ramping up of
workouts.

Michael

As suggested ensuring adequate protein intake, and including stretching may
or may not help. Be careful about the use of ibuprofen however - I read a
study ealier this year that suggested NSAID's inhibited adaptation...while
it may alleviate the pain from DOMS, it may then take away from how well she
can adapt and recover from training, both strength and in the water. You may
give with one hand and again take away with the other using this approach.

As she is in a D1 program, I'm assuming her stregth training is administered
and directed by a strength coach. As such, she should sicuss this with the
strength coach assigned to the swimming team, or if it's administered by one
of the assistant coaches, speak to them. Failing adaptation (it sounds as
though this is her sophomore or subsequent year) this far into the program
sounds a little fishy, and perhaps they need to augment what she is doing
before she starts taking matters into her own hands. They will probably be
used to athletes who do not have a background in strength training, and may
be able to suggest the best way for her to maximise what the program is
designed to do while working on a more appropriate level.

Steve

If you still want to try the NSAIDS, you could try a baby aspirin. Docs
try to go for the lowest effective dose, and the 81 mg may help for the
short term.
Madelaine

I've been into the Iron game from time to time over the years. Every
once in a while I do some research on the web to see where it's at.
I've got books by the old timers - Arnold and Arthur Jones. And
lately people like Dr. Ken Leistner, Stuart McRobert, and [censored] Connor.
Out of all of them, the most knowledgeable person I've ever read is the
guy whose site is below - Dr. Doug McGuff. I encourage you to go to
the website and look at the Articles he has posted, particularly the
ones on recovery. If your daughter is an big lifter plus she's trying
to swim - that's a little crazy.

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

Good Luck,
Eric

Quoted message said:

I've been into the Iron game from time to time over the years. Every
once in a while I do some research on the web to see where it's at.
I've got books by the old timers - Arnold and Arthur Jones. And
lately people like Dr. Ken Leistner, Stuart McRobert, and [censored] Connor.
Out of all of them, the most knowledgeable person I've ever read is the
guy whose site is below - Dr. Doug McGuff. I encourage you to go to
the website and look at the Articles he has posted, particularly the
ones on recovery. If your daughter is an big lifter plus she's trying
to swim - that's a little crazy.

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

Good Luck,
Eric

Hmm, this website specifies that your workout room be devoid of foliage...
Madelaine

Madelaine said:

Quoted message said:

I've been into the Iron game from time to time over the years. Every
once in a while I do some research on the web to see where it's at.
I've got books by the old timers - Arnold and Arthur Jones. And
lately people like Dr. Ken Leistner, Stuart McRobert, and [censored] Connor.
Out of all of them, the most knowledgeable person I've ever read is the
guy whose site is below - Dr. Doug McGuff. I encourage you to go to
the website and look at the Articles he has posted, particularly the
ones on recovery. If your daughter is an big lifter plus she's trying
to swim - that's a little crazy.

http://www.ultimate-exercise.com/

Good Luck,
Eric

Hmm, this website specifies that your workout room be devoid of foliage...

Plants, like youth, laugh at you.