Cat 3 fun

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like Henry,
even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
www.sacgw.com

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like Henry,
even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
www.sacgw.com

"Joshua Zlotlow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden]

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to

a

Quoted message said:

lack of talent or ability to train enough due to other demands in life;

and 1s

Quoted message said:

and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive in

the

Quoted message said:

serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a

pack

Quoted message said:

of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow

If someone enjoys bike racing, what's it to you what their motivation is?

Dashii

Weak reasoning.

You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first. That could happen anytime in
any corner (case in point: checkout all the [doh!] TDF crashes this year, like stage 1 into Meaux,
the wet ITT, and of course Beloki).

Sure, if your group is riding slower you won't get as close to the limit. If that's your comfort
level, fine. The only "safe" race is a hill climb, but even then you'll see guys touch wheels
and go down.

warren said:

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

Joshua Zlotlow said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either?

For one, he is speaking of comparative risk (since he knows crashes occur in *every* division) -- so
that "solves itself" as far which race one is "pushed to" regarding risk if they do intend to race.
For me, if I thought the risks were too high in any division I'm elgible to race in, then I would
simply not participate at all. That seems pretty simple for low level amateur.

Quoted message said:

I'm not going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much
like Henry, even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

He isn't even close to being right. He's far closer to a moron when it comes to that. Not
recognizing that isn't something you ought to wear on your sleeve. Another obeservation of the
Masters 1/2/3 races is that they are most often the 2nd fastest or 2nd most competetive race
(naturally under pro/1/2) of the race day. So if I were to pick two races to watch, those would be
the two based on the speed and style I like to watch in a bike race. If I were to pick only one for
watching, it would of course just be Pro/1/2.

Quoted message said:

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life;...

That was me, but you don't say why you think it is particularly important -- most riders regardless
of category are not "talented enough," whatever that might mean (turn pro with a $0k contract?).
Warren's point, I believe, is simply that masters have a bit less tolerance for going down than some
23 yo Cat 3 (or 1/2/3/4/5 23 yo for that matter). You can decide if it is true, but most masters
have more family and work responsibilities than most young men, and they've already done all the
falling down they want to do. The opportunity cost of getting hurt is higher when your older (and
not just for bike racers). In this way, older people have less tolerance for getting hurt.

Quoted message said:

...and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive...

Some are, some aren't. Some "masters" win the Pro/1/2 races. Sometimes the same day they won the
masters race. Winkel, for one, has done it. Not recently, because even he ages. The governing bodies
speak out of both sides of their mouth when it comes to categorization. IOW, categorization system
is theoretically non-age graded, but practically speaking it most certainly is not. You get the Cat
X stamp and you get to keep it and hold it while you are 90 yo dying from pneumonia.

Quoted message said:

... in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack of
mostly Cat 3s.

I've suggested alternatives and variation in what race divisions are offered from week to week. It
was not received well -- status quo seems to be the rule. People are resistant to change.

Bryan Boldt said:

Weak reasoning.

You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first.

So, he had matching orange forks, the riderless crash bike had black forks.
--
Dominic Richens | [email hidden] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Bryan Boldt [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 12:14 PM Pacific
Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Weak reasoning.

You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first. That could happen anytime in
any corner (case in point: checkout all the [doh!] TDF crashes this year, like stage 1 into Meaux,
the wet ITT, and of course Beloki).

Sure, if your group is riding slower you won't get as close to the limit. If that's your comfort
level, fine. The only "safe" race is a hill climb, but even then you'll see guys touch wheels
and go down.

warren said:

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

FWIW, there were two crashes in that race. The one pictured was the first one. It was caused by a
rider leaning into the bush too much while cornering, then losing control and causing a pileup.

The second crash was more of a bumping-related crash.

Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

Joshua Zlotlow said:

Sandbagging isn't really in the spirit of competition, which recreational racing is all about

What sandbagging? It's age graded not ability graded. If someone's not comfortable with that open
ended criteria then they should stick with catagory races.

Bret

[email hidden] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.com/bike/road/road2003/timpani-8-3-03/cat3/source/timpani_r_03_179.html

Quoted message said:

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like
Henry, even though he's generally > right in his mockery of Masters racing.

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
of mostly Cat 3s.

That's always the dichotomy of Masters 1/2/3 races.

85% are won by Cat 1's (ex-Pros too), 14% by a Cat. 2 and 1% at best by a sandbagging 3. The 3's
have no chance except for possibly safer racing than a pure Sr. 3 pack (I've done both many times
and can assure you the Sr. 3 packs are three times as stupid as the Masters in NorCal).

But then again, whatever motivates you to race (safely) should be fine for you, for me, or
for anyone.

Nothing wrong with any constructive criticism.

-Ken

Quoted message said:

Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 9:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In the 30+ 1,2,3 race there were plenty of bumps and nudges but nobody fell down. The sequence
below is why I don't do Sr. 3 races...

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_177.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_179.html

abbiorca.comtiOpen ↗ mpani_r_03_180.html

-WG

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either?

I like racing with the people who have better skills than what predominates in the Sr. 3's races
here in NorCal. I also like the challenge of racing against faster riders and with more interesting
strategy than is common in the Sr. 3's events.

Quoted message said:

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen

For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in the
1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those guys are
also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at Livermore and then
did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day it was harder to hang in
the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

Oh no, not this [censored] again.

Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.

In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

Oh no, not this [censored] again.

Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.

Fact is fact.

-WG

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Warren


For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in the
1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those guys are
also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at Livermore and then
did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day it was harder to hang in
the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

-WG

Hmmm, I see a Warren G finishing the M35+123 in 18th place, is that you? I don't see any Warrens finishing the SrPro12 race at all. What happened?

http://www.ncnca.org/road/2003/WenteCritResults.html

You're correct about that call. I think photo timpani_r_03_177.JPG shows the orange-fork-kinda-guy
is behind the screwed-up-face-black-bianchi-bike-kinda-guy.

Guess the moral is, watch out for guys on orange-bikes (do I hear Eddy breathing down my neck?).

Dominic Richens said:

Bryan Boldt said:

Weak reasoning.

You imply the crash was due to bumps and nudges in the Cat 3 race, but it appears to be the solo
rider in the prior photo (timpani_r_03_174.JPG) that went down first.

So, he had matching orange forks, the riderless crash bike had black forks.
--
Dominic Richens | [email hidden] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying
attention!"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: DiabloScott [email hidden] Date: 8/8/03 3:43 PM Pacific
Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Warren said:

For a guy who lives in this area you sure don't have an accurate grasp on who's doing what in
the 1,2,3 races. Look at the top 15 places of the 35+ 1,2,3 races and note how many of those
guys are also racing next to you in the Pro 1,2 event. FWIW, I did the 35+ 1,2,3 event at
Livermore and then did the Pro 1,2,3 event 90 minutes later in a hard crosswind. One that day
it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race. -WG

Hmmm, I see a Warren G finishing the M35+123 in 18th place, is that you? I don't see any Warrens
finishing the SrPro12 race at all. What happened?

ncnca.orgWenteCritResults.htmlOpen ↗

I think he was referring to the Wheels of Thunder Crit, which is also in Livermore, but at a
different business park.

ncnca.orgWOTCritResults.htmlOpen ↗ Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento,
California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

Oh no, not this [censored] again.

Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.

Fact is fact.

Warren, that's pathetic.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Kurgan Gringioni

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

>One that day it was harder to hang in the 35+ race than the Pro 1,2,3 race.

Oh no, not this [censored] again.

Goddamm Masters Fatties never learn.

Fact is fact.

Warren, that's pathetic.

Similar things have been said about the Tuesday night races in CO. People who double up in the 30+
and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123 race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower
(it's not) but because it's smoother. I don't know why that would be but I've heard it from more
than one source. What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the whole story.

Bret

[email hidden] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Cat 3 fun

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't do those either? I'm not
going to say too much more than that, since I don't want want to start sounding too much like
Henry, even though he's generally right in his mockery of Masters racing.

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters 1/2/3 fields. They're made up
of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due to a lack of talent or ability to train enough due
to other demands in life; and 1s and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly
competitive in the serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on a pack
of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen
www.sacgw.com

Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.

"Bret Wade" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What this probably means is that sitting in doesn't tell the whole story.

That is correct.