Cat 3 fun

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Casey Kerrigan

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email hidden]>
wrote:

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Quoted message said:

>Joshua Zlotlow wrote:
>>
>
>> My point was that the guys dominating the masters are there for easier pickings than senior
>> races.

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In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look like anyone is dominating
the master fields ( in terms of race winners).

I think its great if there is more competition, but...

Ride in the race and then you'll know who is putting the hammer down and who is just holding on. I
remember what my Cat 2 teammate said when he turned 35. "I like the masters races. Now instead of 30
guys who can always beat me in every race, now there are only 5-10 guys in a given race who will
always beat me."

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In 34 different Master 35+ 1/2/3 races there have been 24 different winners.

So there are about 24 guys who are "dominating" the races. :-)

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The only multi race winners in the races I reviewed were.

Daniel Smith 2 wins Chris Black 2 wins Sandy Wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins

I think Larry Nolan won Monta Vista or one of those other Fremont Criteriums, and something else.
Chris Hipp won Cherry Pie and at least one other race.

I certainly see some familiar names. Langley won a bagful of races last year. McGuire has always won
a lot. Allen has won for years. If Casey would compile for the past ten years and also include not
who won, but the many more who *never* won, he'd have a much more accurate perspective (I'd really
enjoy seeing the histogram). A team of 40 yo cat 3's has no chance against Nolan & crew. A total
point system for placings for the last ten years would tell the story Casey is missing.

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/10/03 9:24 AM Pacific Daylight
Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>, Joshua Zlotlow

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden] Date: 8/9/03 8:57 AM Pacific
>Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
>
>In article <[email hidden]>, Joshua Zlotlow <[email hidden]>
>wrote:
>
>> I was only looking at top 10s at Monte Vista, I only noticed two riders

in

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>> the top ten in both races. I think a short time between races probably
>helped
>> those riders who did both.
>
>Yes, Josh, you should try doing almost two hours of racing continuously against guys who only
>have to race about half that time. Or perhaps you can do your regular race warmup, then a race
>effort warmup for a full 50 minutes before your one race and then tell us that it helped you.
>
>-WG
>

I'd say doing a race itself is the most effective warmup.

Then go ahead and do a normal race warmup for 30-45 minutes, then do a race-effort for 50 minutes
before ALL of your single races and tell us this again.

A "race effort" and sitting in in a race are different. A "race effort" warmup of 50 minutes is
basically a time trial. That's way different than riding in a race.

You are evading the question.

Do the warmup any way you want to call it. Just do it like you would a race, so the effort it about
the same and the fatigue is the same, then go do your races. Thne tell us why you think guys doing
races back to back are better off than guys like you doing one race.

Do you do the River Ride right before your races in Sacramento? It's a good warmup right?

-WG

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: Casey Kerrigan [email hidden] Date: 8/10/03 9:13 AM Pacific
Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

[SNIPPED]>In reviewing a bunch of master 35 1/2/3 race results it doesn't look

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like anyone is dominating the master fields ( in terms of race winners). In 34 different Master
35+ 1/2/3 races there have been 24 different winners. The only multi race winners in the racs I
review were.

Daniel Smith 2 wis Chris Black 2 wins Sandy wong 2 wins Vince Gee 3 wins Brian McGuire 2 wins
Patrick Briggs 2 wins Don Langley 2 wins Peter Allen 2 wins Michael Hutchinson 2 wins

It seems like its the same names in the top 6 or so over and over again. Have any masters races
been won by Cat 3s this year?

Rick Adams won the 45+ race in Fremont and the guy in second place was Larry Nolan. Rick also got
second in the Sr. 3's race at Davis after already having raced in the 45+ event. George Miranda was
3rd in the Land Park 35+ 123 race and was 5th in the 3's race before that. I only know about these
two guys because we are on the same team.

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I'd imagine that an extremely large percentage of the top 6s are Cat 2 and above.

So what? It is in fact a 1,2,3 event. As far as I'm concerned, the more 1,2's in the event
the better.

-WG

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!

Carl Sundquist said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!

Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss kiss.

In article said:

Carl Sundquist said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!

Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss kiss.

Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a reincarnation of "The Pomeranian". So it's two
different guys?! Then I need to know... Is "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?

-WG

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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand

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warren said:

In article said:

Carl Sundquist said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
>

THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!

Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss kiss.

Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a reincarnation of "The Pomeranian". So it's two
different guys?! Then I need to know... Is "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?

-WG

They are the same..................

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01:47:52 GMT)

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<HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Cat 3 fun by Pom Pom</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><SPAN
STYLE=3D'font-size:12.0px'>On 8/10/03 7:10 PM, in = article
[email hidden], "warren" <war= [email hidden]>
wrote:<BR> <BR> <FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> In article <[email hidden]>, gwh= ite
<[email hidden]> wrote:<BR> > <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> Carl Sundquist
wrote:<BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>> <BR> >>> "gwhite"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news=
:[email hidden]...<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800080">>>>> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#FF0000">>>>
<BR> >>> THE POMERANIAN IS IN THE HOUSE!!!<BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008000">>> <BR>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, yes, I love it here. I love you all. kiss kiss ki= ss.<BR> </FONT><FONT

COLOR=3D"#0000FF">> <BR> > Oops. I thought the "Precious Pup" guy was a
reincarnation o= f "The<BR> > Pomeranian". So it's two different guys?! Then I need to
know... = Is<BR> > "never_doped" really Andy Coggan?<BR> > <BR> > -WG<BR>
</FONT>They are the same..................<BR> <BR> <BR> X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060494882 6065
146.252.12.99 (10 Aug 2003 05:54:4= 2 GMT)<BR> <BR> <BR> X-Trace: home.itg.ti.com 1060566472 29761
146.252.12.99 (11 Aug 2003 01:47:= 52 GMT)</SPAN></FONT> </BODY> </HTML>

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In article said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Cat 3 fun From: warren [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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I'd imagine that an extremely large percentage of the top 6s are Cat 2 and above.

So what? It is in fact a 1,2,3 event. As far as I'm concerned, the more 1,2's in the event the
better.

-WG

Just pointing out that it's mainly 1s and 2s finishing ahead of a lot of Cat
3s.

That's the price to pay if you want to race against the best in your age group. Pros tend to finish
ahead of 2's in their races too.

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If a race didn't have a masters category, would you do the 3s?

I did Monta Vista with the 3's for that reason and because it looked like a course that wouldn't
encourage too much stupid riding. I did the 3's race at Folsom because it's 2 miles from my house,
the course looked safe although we ended up having to restart the race after one crash, and I didn't
think I'd go well in the 35's anyway because I was tired from training that week (I did the 35's
race after the 3's race).

-WG

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Dumbass -

I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something

else.

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11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.

Chickenshit.

Almost everyone stops, eventually.

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Dumbass,

Look at the subject line. You're doing Klassic Kunich: responding to

something

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that wasn't even said, and I should not have followed the red herring.

Hendricks didn't mention "easiness;" the topic is relative safety, and

Hendricks

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pointed out that Josh can't judge relative safety because he hasn't done

both.

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You use the same type of argument all the time, but all the sudden it's

not okay

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with you.

Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2 races.

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Dumbass said:

That does not contradict with the referenced post.

Dumbass wrote: Masters races tend to be smoother, therefore easier.

Bret Wade wrote: People who double up in the 30+ and P123 races (not me) have said that the P123
race is easier to sit in on, not because it slower (it's not) but because it's smoother.

Dumbass wrote: That is correct.

Make up your mind dipsy doodle.

I didn't agree with that, dumbass.

I agreed with him saying that "it's something else".

Kurgan Gringioni said:

"Precious Pup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Dumbass,

Look at the subject line. You're doing Klassic Kunich: responding to

something

Quoted message said:

that wasn't even said, and I should not have followed the red herring.

Hendricks didn't mention "easiness;" the topic is relative safety, and

Hendricks

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pointed out that Josh can't judge relative safety because he hasn't done

both.

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You use the same type of argument all the time, but all the sudden it's

not okay

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with you.

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Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2 races.

Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2

races.

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Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.

Dumbass -

this is Hendricks' post (replying to Zlotlow):

"Scott Hendricks" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Joshua Zlotlow) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Subject: Cat 3 fun

So, if you felt there were more crashes in Masters' races, you wouldn't

do

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those either? I'm not going to say too much more than that, since I

don't want

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want to start sounding too much like Henry, even though he's generally

right in

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his mockery of Masters racing.

Since I can't resist, I will point out my observation on the Masters

1/2/3

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fields. They're made up of 3s who are never going to upgrade either due

to a

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lack of talent or ability to train enough due to other demands in life;

and 1s

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and 2s who are either no longer good enough to be highly competitive in

the

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serious races or enjoy racing against some 1s and 2s while beating up on

a pack

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of mostly Cat 3s. Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden
Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

Obviously someone who's never actually done a Masters race.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Look at who Hendricks replied to: Zlotlow, who was speaking of 1/2

races.

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Nope. You just had something you felt you needed to say.

Dumbass -

this is Hendricks' post (replying to Zlotlow):

Dumbass Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Dumbass:

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Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields, but unless you've got an incredibly strong
3s field and a relatively weak masters field, the masters are not easier than the 3s by any
stretch of the imagination.

Here in CO, the 45+ will typically have avg speeds on par or slightly above the 3s, and the 35+
are significantly faster than the 3s. Some days they're almost on par w/ the pro/1/2 speeds.

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:

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Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,

Dumbass -

that particular statement is the one I was addressing.

Kurgan Gringioni said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:

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Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,

Dumbass -

that particular statement is the one I was addressing.

Dumbass,

That is a neat trick. I mean, making time go backwards. But you don't believe what the Second Law
says, so I suppose it is no surprise.

"K. J. Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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That's always the dichotomy of Masters 1/2/3 races.

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85% are won by Cat 1's (ex-Pros too), 14% by a Cat. 2 and 1% at best by a sandbagging 3. The 3's
have no chance except for possibly safer racing than a pure Sr. 3 pack (I've done both many times
and can assure you the Sr. 3 packs are three times as stupid as the Masters in NorCal).

No you did not say that!

Kurgan Gringioni said:

I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something

else.

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11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.

You are leaving RBR again?

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Kurgan Gringioni said:

I wouldn't call it "burned out" as much as time to move onto something

else.

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11 years of 20 hours/week was already too much time.

You are leaving RBR again?

lol, if I was smart I would.

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Kurgan Gringioni said:

"gwhite" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Scott Hendricks wrote in reply to Zlotlow:
>
> Perhaps the masters are easier than the pro/1/2 fields,

Dumbass -

that particular statement is the one I was addressing.

Dumbass,

That is a neat trick. I mean, making time go backwards. But you don't

believe

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what the Second Law says, so I suppose it is no surprise.

Dumbass -

That's the statment I was addressing.

You thought I was addressing something else. What's the big deal?