Groupo Differences

I have a friend who I rely on for bike advice, however he recently said
something which caused my skepticism meter to max out. He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

I asked for specifics. He said that, for example, a Shimano 105 will
shift just as well and as smoothly as Dura-Ace, but the DA will last
longer. He went on to say that if I rode a well set up 105 set and a
Dura Ace without knowing which was which, I couldn't tell the
difference. The compare went to Campy groupos too. That is, his
contention wasn't limited to Shimano, but spanned across all brands.

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Comments?

I don't know about the current groups, but I have an older Duraace 7400
group and have tried other bikes of the same vintage 105 and Ultregra. In
terms of actual performance they is very little difference. But I do feel
that the Duraace is a little smoother in its shifting action at the levers.
As you go up in price you get a better finish, smoother action and lighter
weight. None of this makes the bike any faster though. Also in some case the
cheaper parts will last longer. e.g. Ti cassette vs. steel 105.

Note I was impressed when I took apart my 7400 brakes and found ball
bearings on the pivots. I doubt that the cheaper group have them. But does
it make a really difference? Pros ride the high end since they don't have to
pay for them. Other than for vanity, lesser groups will serve amateurs and
recreational riders well.

cel

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have a friend who I rely on for bike advice, however he recently said
something which caused my skepticism meter to max out. He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

I asked for specifics. He said that, for example, a Shimano 105 will
shift just as well and as smoothly as Dura-Ace, but the DA will last
longer. He went on to say that if I rode a well set up 105 set and a
Dura Ace without knowing which was which, I couldn't tell the
difference. The compare went to Campy groupos too. That is, his
contention wasn't limited to Shimano, but spanned across all brands.

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Comments?

Your friend is right. If you ride a bike with 105, ultegra, dura ace,
campy record, etc. performancewise, you'll find no difference. Since
shimano and campy work different, you'll be able to distinguish them,
and you if you count, you'll beable to distinguish between a 10 speed
cassette and a 9 speed. Same thing for frames. Performance wise, you'll
find little differnece between frames with the same geometry. If they
are made of different materials, you'll be able to distinguish them
because they will sound different, but they will perform the same.

Of course, if you spend big bucks, you may be able to put together a 13
pound bike that will feel lighter than a 21 pound $800 bike. However,
from about $800 up to about $2000 in terms of performance, you'll feel
little difference. Qualitywise, you'll get more durability and better
finish in the more expensive bikes and weight savings. Beyond $2000 you
are paying for the brandname, customization, amore weighnt savings, and
in some cases some exotic stuff that is more advertising and image than
anything else.

Andres

Paul Cassel said:

I have a friend who I rely on for bike advice, however he recently said
something which caused my skepticism meter to max out. He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

I asked for specifics. He said that, for example, a Shimano 105 will
shift just as well and as smoothly as Dura-Ace, but the DA will last
longer. He went on to say that if I rode a well set up 105 set and a
Dura Ace without knowing which was which, I couldn't tell the
difference. The compare went to Campy groupos too. That is, his
contention wasn't limited to Shimano, but spanned across all brands.

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Comments?

Bill Henry said:

I wonder if the difference between Sora and Ultegra would be more
noticeable? I would assume so, but I don't have much experience with
road bikes.

Yes, you would! You'd not be able to find the release-shift lever on
the Sora (which can be reached ONLY if riding on the hoods).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Yeah, that's bogus. Aside from the obvious weight differences between
aluminum and plastic, you'd surely notice a difference in support and
power transfer to the wheels. It'd work if you made the bike out of
lead, too.

Awesome answer andres....

Well.. my thruth is this one... if u'r not into cycling seriously and u
want something reliable and cheap... got for shimano 105 u wont regret...
at the other end campagnolo offers veloce... is reliable, isnt so nice as
record but it works fine... I think pauls friend its right, the only
difference is that maybe the expensier groupset will last longer, but
thats a mere thing of lucky too if u guys know what im talking about...
the other differences are that maybe the expensier ones work soltly.. and
in some cases even better thant the expensive one... for example I love
the 1st generation of shimano 105 double pivot brake calipers when they
came out, they work better and softer than newer ultegras... well,
whatever the choice u do... always think in your budget and if u'll
ocntinue doing cycling after 2 or 3 years because if u'll stop ring after
2 months better get a 300 bucks bike at the supermarket u know...

I have a campy record group in a ridley compact frame, awesome frame
anyways... the best i ever riden and i brought a custom made steel frame
with shimano 105 (the 1st gen. that includes double pivot in the brake
system) from my country and i love that bike... the 2 bikes ride
different because the ridley is aluminum and the steel one is made of
columbus SL (the bike has 20 years old) the angles are different, all is
different in both of them, but i love them both... the nice about steel
is that it gets softer as u ride.. i mean.. is noble material so as much
u ride the bike somehow the ride it get softer... altought that steel
frame was designed for running in circuits I can ride it w/o any pain for
hours... As a good tale.. i can tell that I bought like 15 years ago a
colnago master (steel)... awesome frame, all perfect, and for some reason
i coulndt get use to it, I rode it like for 8 months, I move all i could,
the size was right, all perfect.. but no way... something was not right,
so i sold it (the other guy was happy with it) ...well in frames u never
know... ive seen people complaining about gios torinos or alans too... so
in frames u have all kind of frames, brands, tubes and angles... so if u
find something that it fits u well stick with it... and with the groupos,
wel check your pocket and see if u need something better, nowadays the
only weird thing i have to say about shimano is that i dont like the
brake levers... they are too long compared to the campy ones (u have to
have giant hands to grab them hehehe) and the other thing is that u can
repare campy brake levers (shimanos are sealed, dunno if the new ones
are), basically that why I stuck with campy instead of shimano... shimano
is a good brand i have no complains so far.

well cya guys hhehehe 🙂

[email hidden] wrote in news:1126922586.836559.143240
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

Your friend is right. If you ride a bike with 105, ultegra, dura ace,
campy record, etc. performancewise, you'll find no difference. Since
shimano and campy work different, you'll be able to distinguish them,
and you if you count, you'll beable to distinguish between a 10 speed
cassette and a 9 speed. Same thing for frames. Performance wise, you'll
find little differnece between frames with the same geometry. If they
are made of different materials, you'll be able to distinguish them
because they will sound different, but they will perform the same.

Of course, if you spend big bucks, you may be able to put together a 13
pound bike that will feel lighter than a 21 pound $800 bike. However,
from about $800 up to about $2000 in terms of performance, you'll feel
little difference. Qualitywise, you'll get more durability and better
finish in the more expensive bikes and weight savings. Beyond $2000 you
are paying for the brandname, customization, amore weighnt savings, and
in some cases some exotic stuff that is more advertising and image than
anything else.

Andres

Paul Cassel said:

I have a friend who I rely on for bike advice, however he recently

said

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something which caused my skepticism meter to max out. He said that

once

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

I asked for specifics. He said that, for example, a Shimano 105 will
shift just as well and as smoothly as Dura-Ace, but the DA will last
longer. He went on to say that if I rode a well set up 105 set and a
Dura Ace without knowing which was which, I couldn't tell the
difference. The compare went to Campy groupos too. That is, his
contention wasn't limited to Shimano, but spanned across all brands.

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Comments?

Paul Cassel said:

He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

Though I don't have any experience with high-end groups, I'd imagine
that the heavier parts on the less expensive components would be more
durable. For example, steel chainrings/cassettes should last longer than
lighter aluminum or titanium versions.

-Mike

none <[email hidden]> wrote in news:oONWe.3245$i86.303@trndny01:

Quoted message said:

Paul Cassel said:

He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

Though I don't have any experience with high-end groups, I'd imagine
that the heavier parts on the less expensive components would be more
durable. For example, steel chainrings/cassettes should last longer than
lighter aluminum or titanium versions.

-Mike

Not really, all depends... the form and the materials change a lot... for
example on campy veloce... is ugly, and heavy.. all the groupset in
aluminum...by the opposite.. the record groupset is made of aluminum and
carbon fiber, and a looooooooot cuter than veloce.. so as u can see record
is beauty, lighter plus more realiable than the other groups.. basically
with shimano is the same, the improvements from 105 to dura-ace are a lot..
thats why is more expensive too... besides light is more resistant..

thanks...

richard said:

Bill Henry said:

I wonder if the difference between Sora and Ultegra would be more
noticeable? I would assume so, but I don't have much experience with
road bikes.

Yes, you would! You'd not be able to find the release-shift lever on
the Sora (which can be reached ONLY if riding on the hoods).

True, but they still shift smooth as silk.

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the words to numbers
if you want to reply to me:.

none said:

Paul Cassel said:

He said that once
you get to a certain very basic level in groupos, the only benefit to
gettting a better grade is that they last longer.

Though I don't have any experience with high-end groups, I'd imagine
that the heavier parts on the less expensive components would be more
durable. For example, steel chainrings/cassettes should last longer than
lighter aluminum or titanium versions.

On the other hand, that's the wear items. The non-wear items (hubs,
cranks, derailers) generally do last longer at higher levels (cause they
don't want you to replace your record derailer with something available
like Centaur and then thinking, well, the new cassette and chain may as
well be Centaur too. Wear items are major profit centers, after all). Dura
Ace, Record and XTR may possibly be an exception to this, in certain
parts, but not all.

Jasper

In the case of record carbon vs recor alloy, or record vs chorus. I
would go with the alloy or the chorus. I've been in bikeshops and rides
where people have fallen with the carbon groups. The record levers and
the rear deraulliers get destroyed. Also, I don't know how much lighter
or stronger are carbon cranks which often cost $200 more than alloy
ones, but I would stick to alloy. Titanium cassettes are something that
I wouldn't use and I would stick to intermediate cassettes. Finally I
always use the lowest end SRAM chains with the brownish look.

Andres

noname said:

Not really, all depends... the form and the materials change a lot... for
example on campy veloce... is ugly, and heavy.. all the groupset in
aluminum...by the opposite.. the record groupset is made of aluminum and
carbon fiber, and a looooooooot cuter than veloce.. so as u can see record
is beauty, lighter plus more realiable than the other groups..

Sorry, I can't agree. I have a nearly full Veloce group on one bike,
mostly Chorus/Racing T on another. I have quite a few miles on both bikes.

The Chorus is a bit shinier in places, a bit prettier, and somewhat
lighter. I can't agree that the Veloce is *ugly*, though. I think of
it as one of the great component bargains of our time.

I have found no difference at all in performance (except those few
hundred extra grams, which I can't feel).

Both are equally reliable. The Veloce is now on my rain bike, and
arguably gets harder duty, having to cope with grime that the Chorus
never sees, but no reliability problems.

Those extra bucks buy you a bit more shine, more snob value, modestly
lighter weight, and a few more adjustment options.

Mark

Jasper Janssen said:

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 05:26:44 GMT, none <[email hidden]> wrote:

This has been a bit of a surprise. I expected to be told that my friend
was half way to full lunacy for his comments and instead I'm told by
most folks who responded here that he's right on the money. One
responder even said that $2k is the limit where diminishing returns in
bike spending pretty much plateaus. That too surprised me. As one who
was in the market until recently, I can say that the LBS's I visited
class <$2k bikes as "OK" but clearly not nearly the performance or
quality of the >$2k bikes. One store even graded the bikes into
categories with the >$5k bikes as being clearly where you'd wish to be
if only you had the moxie to reach high.

Naturally, any merchant wishes to sell his expensive merchandise, but
still, I figured at the higher costs there would be great returns. I
suspected that these returns would only be useful to advanced riders.
That is, a beginner like myself, wouldn't be able to harnass the value
of those $5k rides - for years or maybe forever.

The initial discussion with my friend came up because I own a higher end
bike. In my case, I bought a used bike from a fellow who was thinning
his herd but it clearly is a high end bike using expensive components.
Chance had me riding a $1k bike which a friend of mine just purchased.

To me, the $1k bike felt like junk. The frame felt dead. It shifted
roughly, didn't turn well, felt harsh over rougher surfaces and overall
I didn't enjoy the short ride I had on it. The bike was brand new and
just fully setup by the LBS. So I concluded that I had gotten a good
deal on my used, but high end bike compared to a new low end (is $1k low
end?) bike. My friend said something was wrong. The frame may feel dead
compared to mine, but it should have been generally about the same in
feel. Part of the 'feel' may have been that my bike has less mass.

Well, thanks to the group here for setting me straight. I'm still happy
about my bike even if I spent money foolishly.

noname said:

from 105 to dura-ace are a lot.. thats why is more expensive too...
besides light is more resistant..

More resistant to what? Breakage? Being lighter doesn't mean it's more
resistant to breakage.
---
Splat

Splat said:

noname said:

from 105 to dura-ace are a lot.. thats why is more expensive too...
besides light is more resistant..

More resistant to what? Breakage? Being lighter doesn't mean it's more
resistant to breakage.
---
Splat

well, noname's right, but it's not because it's lighter. d-a /is/ more
fatigue resistant - because it's cold forged and uses very high quality
material.

Bill Henry said:

Paul Cassel said:

I've read likewise that folks, if they could ride blind, couldn't tell
what frame material they're riding. That is, if my all aluminum bike
were transformed instantly to an all plastic bike, I'd not note it
during the ride. I find that incredible as well.

Yeah, that's bogus. Aside from the obvious weight differences between
aluminum and plastic, you'd surely notice a difference in support and
power transfer to the wheels. It'd work if you made the bike out of
lead, too.

I'm not sure if "plastic" here means carbon fibre or some other
real-life frame material. I have two road bikes with steel frames and
forks, one with a full carbon fibre frame and fork and I used to have an
aluminium-framed road bike too. I don't notice any real difference in
power transfer and comfort between any of these. The carbon fibre bike
by far the lightest at less than 16 lbs and you can feel the weight
difference when climbing out of the saddle, but that's about it.

-as

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:56:04 -0600, Paul Cassel <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Naturally, any merchant wishes to sell his expensive merchandise, but
still, I figured at the higher costs there would be great returns. I
suspected that these returns would only be useful to advanced riders.
That is, a beginner like myself, wouldn't be able to harnass the value
of those $5k rides - for years or maybe forever.

Law of diminishing returns, basically. Take computers. You can buy a
complete PC for $300, and that's actually a pretty usable PC these days --
256 or 512 megs memory, 80+ gig harddrive, 2.5-3 gig celeron/Sempron
processor, etc. For $1000-2000, you get one that looks nice, has a 3.5-4
gig processor, 200 gig harddrive, and a gig of memory, and you'll notice
the difference (though definitely not a factor of three to six
difference!). For $5000, you get one with two 4 gig processors (and/or a
dualcore), a WD Raptor 74 as system disk with a 4x 250 gig raid array for
storage, 2-4 gigs of memory, the fastest dvd burner money can buy, dual
gigabit ethernet, etc.etc (actually, nowadays it's getting hard to even
spec a god box that costs $5k, if you keep it even remotely near levels of
sanity -- compare that to my mother's first IBM clone in 1985 (8 MHz
processor, 10 meg hard drive, 256k memory) which cost 7-8 grand and was
midlevel at the time).

And that's all very *nice*. But 99% of the people buying a PC won't even
notice the performance difference 99% of the time, and the rest of the
time they'll only notice a little difference. The other 1% of the people
will notice a performance difference between the $1k and $5k computer
maybe half the time. But it *certainly* won't be a factor of 5 faster even
then.

To get back to the bike world, a $5k bike will certainly be nicer than a
$1k bike. But 5 times as nice? Probably not. On the gripping hand, it all
depends on how much money you care to spend on something that is still a
hobby. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking that people riding 1970s
10 speeds are inherently not as good at biking as you are.

Jasper

Paul Cassel said:

I can say that the LBS's I visited
class <$2k bikes as "OK" but clearly not nearly the performance or
quality of the >$2k bikes. One store even graded the bikes into
categories with the >$5k bikes as being clearly where you'd wish to be
if only you had the moxie to reach high.

Well, you are clearly not buying speed with all that money. A newby on
the racing group was asking for advice awhile back and I suggested that
he look at the $500+ range... maybe Sora with Tiagra shifters... that
spending more would get him "mostly esoteric" improvements. Many people
took issue with that...

My recent personal experience is with a $300 MTB with slicks and a
$3,000 (when new, $1300 like new) Ti road bike with Dura Ace. My speed
difference on various TTs that I do regularly improved by 2% max. I
don't think that is a lot.

Quoted message said:

To me, the $1k bike felt like junk. The frame felt dead. It shifted
roughly, didn't turn well, felt harsh over rougher surfaces and overall
I didn't enjoy the short ride I had on it.

If it didn't fit you well, that could have made much of the difference.
Rough shifting is likely the bike shop's problem, and not turning well
is probably fit (geometries do not vary much among road-racing style
bikes). Also, tires have a *lot* to do with "feel". A cheaper bike will
tend to have a stiffer frame as well. Though this isn't bad at all,
some people prefer a bouncy feeling when they stand up.

Quoted message said:

Well, thanks to the group here for setting me straight. I'm still happy
about my bike even if I spent money foolishly.

I think you did great. I'm not at all sorry about my purchase... just
because the improvements are "mostly esoteric" doesn't mean I don't
notice them.

Jasper Janssen said:

On the gripping hand,

Tanj, you've tipped your hand as a Niven reader.

Mark

Mark Janeba said:

Jasper Janssen said:

On the gripping hand,

Tanj, you've tipped your hand as a Niven reader.

Well, I am, but I don't think that's where I get it from. It's more that I
frequent certain newsgroups where many people are Niven readers.

Jasper (incidentally, linking that expression with Niven makes it make
*so* much more sense!)