Torture

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There

can

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or

we

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??

The

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

SNIP

Quoted message said:

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

Are you trying to convince yourself?

But, yeah, if it was an option then I'd use torture and heaping
helpings of it at that if my family were involved or could be spared
suffering. Isn't this slippery slope stuff, though?

The world is one @#$%ed up place.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

"Curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

SNIP

Quoted message said:

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your

missing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any

torture

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

Are you trying to convince yourself?

But, yeah, if it was an option then I'd use torture and heaping
helpings of it at that if my family were involved or could be spared
suffering. Isn't this slippery slope stuff, though?

We are already half way down that slope!

Quoted message said:

The world is one @#$%ed up place.

Truer words were never said

Quoted message said:

Curt
http://curtjames.com/

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There

can

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or

we

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??

The

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There can
be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument?? The
next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Maybe...
but it'd drag us down to their level imho.

What ever happened to truth drugs??????
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Hanson said:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There

can

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or

we

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??

The

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

Hear hear!

Torture can yield unreliable information.
Torture victims tend to tell their torturers what they think they want
to hear just to get the pain stopped.

I don't understand why drugs are not used more?
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

There

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

we

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any

argument??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your

missing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any

torture

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

David said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There
can be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
are shirking our duty to protect our way of life.

Only if they are more effective than other techniques.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??
The next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your missing
daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any torture
techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

This sort of scenario is not as hypothetical as you make it seem. It is not
unusual for criminals to hold useful information, and also not unusual for
them to turn into informants.

The problem with torture as a means of extracting information, is that the
person being tortured is motivated to talk, even if they don't have any
useful information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or

we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??

The

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Maybe...
but it'd drag us down to their level imho.

What ever happened to truth drugs??????
--
Om.

Apparently there is conisderable debate about truth drugs and whether they
are effective. Here we worry about pulling out a fingernail while they are
beheading our people!

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

There

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our

civilization.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians

or we

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life.

Only if they are more effective than other techniques.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any

argument??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your

missing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any

torture

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

This sort of scenario is not as hypothetical as you make it seem. It is

not

Quoted message said:

unusual for criminals to hold useful information, and also not unusual for
them to turn into informants.

The problem with torture as a means of extracting information, is that the
person being tortured is motivated to talk, even if they don't have any
useful information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

my point is that we we seem to be guided by human rights issues in
Guantanamo etc and I think the only consideration should be what are the
most effective techniqes to extract info and screw the human rights with
this particular breed

David said:

There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

Torture can be pretty unreliable itself. Torture someone cruelly
enough and they'll confess to anything just to get you to stop. There
is no guarantee that the information given under torture will be
accurate.

And of course there is the truly horrific possibility that a person who
is completely innocent would be tortured. You'd want to have virtual
certainty that the torture subject would actually have the information
you need before you go reaching for the hammer and pliers.

Travis

John Hanson said:

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

John's right! Smoke a couple of joints with me, and I'll talk my head
off for a Twinkie.

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

I don't understand why drugs are not used more?

I use plenty here, so I'm doing my part.

David said:

my point is that we we seem to be guided by human rights issues in
Guantanamo etc and I think the only consideration should be what are the
most effective techniqes to extract info

My point is that you've yet to demonstrate any conflict between honoring
human rights and extracing information.

The "screw human rights" attitude produces a lot of random abberant behaviour
from some of the troops, which costs a lot in terms of credibility (for
example, consider what happens next time the US ask China or Saudi Arabia or
Iran to clean up their act on human rights.) *and* gives little in terms of
information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David said:

Quoted message said:

There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

Again, this statement does not even make any sense unless you demonstrate that
regard for prisoners rights makes it harder to extract useful information.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David schrieb:

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There can
be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument?? The
next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

agreed. We only need to throw them in a river with a big weight around
their neck. If they drown, this means that they were innocent and are
now with the lord. If however they manage to come back to the surface,
this must mean that the devil helped them somehow and they should now be
burned at the stakes. Either way everybody wins really.

In article <[email hidden]>,

The Bill Rodgers said:

John Hanson said:

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

John's right! Smoke a couple of joints with me, and I'll talk my head
off for a Twinkie.

<snicker>
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

Sgt. Fragger' rrlll@555 said:

David schrieb:

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There can
be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or we
are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew that
torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000 lives
lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument?? The
next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

agreed. We only need to throw them in a river with a big weight around
their neck. If they drown, this means that they were innocent and are
now with the lord. If however they manage to come back to the surface,
this must mean that the devil helped them somehow and they should now be
burned at the stakes. Either way everybody wins really.

Aw, hell, "saboteur," you can do better than that. I'll bet you have
books of all Josef Mengele's research, don't you?

David said:

"John Hanson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:16:28 GMT, "David" <[email hidden]>
wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

There

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can

>be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
>Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

we

>are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

>lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any

argument??

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The

>next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.
>

Frinstance - if you held a man prisoner who you suspected had your

missing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

daughter somewhere and she was in danger - would you not apply any

torture

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

techniques to extract information? Why would governments with infinitely
higher stakes act any differently?

I don't believe torture is a very reliable way to extract information.
I believe drugs are a better way of going.

There is some debate about the effectiveness of drugs. My point is that we
should do whatever it takes with zero regard to prisoners 'rights'.

What if you're wrong? What if he turns out to be innocent? Will you plead guilty
to multiple felonies and accept prison time? Whatever it takes, right?