Torture

David said:

Quoted message said:

But it is, otherwise your question is ill-posed.

You are right in the sense that if present conventional techniques work just
as well as those that are at present not permitted for whatever reason then
my question is irrelevant. However I do not believe that your hypothesis is
correct.

Well, that's great, but you've yet to argue that it's not correct.

Quoted message said:

And my 'question' only states "should there be better ways that
involve torture that these ways should be pursued without contstraint".

So as posed, it's just a hypothetical. I'd argue that there should *still* be
constraints.

But I disagree even in your hypothetical. For example, I don't innocent
people should be tortured. To require that innocent people aren't tortured is
a constraint, so this is one point where we disagree. You're OK with torturing
innocent people, I'm not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am not an expert in interrogation
techniques (nor are you, I submit). There are many techniques that would
be
considered abuse of prisoners rights that may be quite effective in
getting
information.

For example ?

All the examples that have come up recently in Cuba and that prison in Iraq
to do with female interaction, disrespecting the Koran,

Not quite sure how disrespecting the Koran would be effective in getting
information. It seems to have proven more effective in antagonising many
people who are not our enemies.

Quoted message said:

sleep deprivation

Maybe, I think drugs would have similar effects faster, but I don't know.

Quoted message said:

if not outright turture in all its forms

There are a number of forms of torture that are quite useless for obtaining
information (because they result in death before the victim can talk)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because we don't want them.
Because we can't prosecute them for treason (since they're foreign
nationals).
Because we aren't interested in providing political asylum for terrorists.

And because we are not able to 'break' them given the constraints to do with
the various conventions and our perception of human rights

It is simply absurd to provide political asylum for terrorists.

Deporting terrorists does not imply that they are being deported for the
purpose of intelligence gathering. That is your claim -- a claim that you
haven't supported.

Quoted message said:

As I said, certain prisoners were sent to Egypt and Jordan, countries
friendly to the USA, for their help in 'interrogating' the prisoners. -

Why wouldn't the USA just do it themselves ? Do you think that Egypt and
Jordan are more advanced than the US ? I don't buy your suggestion that it
is because they are "bound by conventions". And I don't believe that the USA
would outsource their intelligence-gathering to those countries (who are NOT
as friendly to the USA as you seem to believe)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Torture has been practised all over
the world for centuries. So if it works,
there should be plenty of evidence available.

Sadly, Tomás de Torquemada, Genghis Kahn, et al. were not exceptional
statisticians. BUT, BOY, DID THEY GET *RESULTS*!!!

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-07-30, David <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Fine, then why have we had so much adverse publicity with regard to

American

Quoted message said:

> treatment of prisoners in Cuba and Iraq with regard to intelligence
> gathering if the conventional means of interrogation were all that is
> necessary?

Why ? You make it sound as though prisoner abuse in war zones is
unprecedented. Nothing could be further from the truth.

That's not the issue

But it is. You asked, "why have we had such adverse publicity with rgard
to American treatment of prisoners ... "

Well, the answer is that we had bad publicity because this is generally
frowned upon.

But I suspect what you meant to ask is, why were these methods deployed ?

And

Quoted message said:

my response to that is, that prisoner abuse is the norm, not the

exception,

Quoted message said:

AND that prisoner abuse generally takes place even when the prisoner does

not

Quoted message said:

have useful information.

All above are not the issue - I am not making any assumptions or statements
other than the one hypothesis - "torture should be used if it is deemed to
be more effective than conventional methods" - nothing more and nothing
less.

Quoted message said:

In other words, I answered your question.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> The so called prisoner abuse was intended to 'break' the prisoners.

Which instances specifically ? Based on the photos etc, I'd say that

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

instances of abuse that resulted in public outrage were actually

intended

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to release the frustrations of some of the soldiers.

Your opinion is conjecture as my opinion also would be

My opinion is based on the fact that as far as we know, the more severe

forms

Quoted message said:

of abuse were not ordered by the higher-ups.

Again that is conjecture - one man's word against another.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Research on whether 'torture' works would not by definition be

available.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who would admit they used illegal techniques?

Torture has been practised all over the world for centuries. So if it

works,

Quoted message said:

there should be plenty of evidence available.

There are many variations of torture as are there many variations of
conventional interrogation which may not have been available over the
centuries. It is not so simple. But go back to my statement above - these
are all side issues and not pertinent to my hypothesis

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Quoted message said:

But it is, otherwise your question is ill-posed.

You are right in the sense that if present conventional techniques work

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as well as those that are at present not permitted for whatever reason

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

my question is irrelevant. However I do not believe that your hypothesis

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

correct.

Well, that's great, but you've yet to argue that it's not correct.

That's not the issue. It's my hypthosis that I have stated - yours will have
to wait till another time

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And my 'question' only states "should there be better ways that
involve torture that these ways should be pursued without contstraint".

So as posed, it's just a hypothetical. I'd argue that there should *still*

be

Quoted message said:

constraints.

But I disagree even in your hypothetical. For example, I don't innocent
people should be tortured. To require that innocent people aren't tortured

is

Quoted message said:

a constraint, so this is one point where we disagree. You're OK with

torturing

Quoted message said:

innocent people, I'm not.

Now you are assuming that all prisoners subject to interrogation are
innocent. The question is not whether they are innocent, it is whether they
have useful information. That would be very rare and I would take the chance
for the greater good that it is remotely possible that a person being
interrogated does not indeed have information.

[....]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All the examples that have come up recently in Cuba and that prison in

Iraq

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to do with female interaction, disrespecting the Koran,

Not quite sure how disrespecting the Koran would be effective in getting
information. It seems to have proven more effective in antagonising many
people who are not our enemies.

Also not the issue

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sleep deprivation

Maybe, I think drugs would have similar effects faster, but I don't know.

Also not the issue

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if not outright turture in all its forms

There are a number of forms of torture that are quite useless for

obtaining

Quoted message said:

information (because they result in death before the victim can talk)

Also not the issue

[.....]

Quoted message said:

It is simply absurd to provide political asylum for terrorists.

Deporting terrorists does not imply that they are being deported for the
purpose of intelligence gathering. That is your claim -- a claim that you
haven't supported.

According to my understanding these prisoners have been sent to those
countries to assist in interrogation - not being deported as such

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, certain prisoners were sent to Egypt and Jordan, countries
friendly to the USA, for their help in 'interrogating' the prisoners. -

Why wouldn't the USA just do it themselves ?

They have not had positive results from conventional techniques.

Quoted message said:

Do you think that Egypt and
Jordan are more advanced than the US ?

They use torture freely. The US doesn't

Quoted message said:

I don't buy your suggestion that it
is because they are "bound by conventions". And I don't believe that the

USA

Quoted message said:

would outsource their intelligence-gathering to those countries (who are

NOT

Quoted message said:

as friendly to the USA as you seem to believe)

Nothing to lose - these prisoners (according to my understanding) were
interrogated without result.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David said:

Quoted message said:

But I disagree even in your hypothetical. For example, I don't innocent
people should be tortured. To require that innocent people aren't tortured

is

Quoted message said:

a constraint, so this is one point where we disagree. You're OK with

torturing

Quoted message said:

innocent people, I'm not.

Now you are assuming that all prisoners subject to interrogation are
innocent.

No, I am not assuming this. I am assuming that there exist prisoners who are
innocent.

Quoted message said:

The question is not whether they are innocent, it is whether they
have useful information. That would be very rare and I would take the chance
for the greater good

The "for the greater good" philosophy is interesting.

But it's not the general philosophy held in the US or even Australia. In fact,
Australia and the US frequently criticse countries who adopt that philosophy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All the examples that have come up recently in Cuba and that prison in
Iraq to do with female interaction, disrespecting the Koran,

Not quite sure how disrespecting the Koran would be effective in getting
information. It seems to have proven more effective in antagonising many
people who are not our enemies.

Also not the issue

[snip]

OK, I'm glad that you appear to be backing down from your argument about
torture being effective. But if it's "not the issue", I don't quite get why
you keep debating the effectiveness of torture further down. Are you conceding
the point, or not ?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is simply absurd to provide political asylum for terrorists.

Deporting terrorists does not imply that they are being deported for the
purpose of intelligence gathering. That is your claim -- a claim that you
haven't supported.

According to my understanding these prisoners have been sent to those
countries to assist in interrogation - not being deported as such

"Your understanding" is not an authoritative source. Do you have a better
one ?

Wait, I know the answer to that one: "not the issue".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, certain prisoners were sent to Egypt and Jordan, countries
friendly to the USA, for their help in 'interrogating' the prisoners. -

Why wouldn't the USA just do it themselves ?

They have not had positive results from conventional techniques.

But you have previously arhied that the USA do not exclusively use
"conventional techniques". So, again, why wouldn't the USA just do it
themselves ?

Wait, got it: "not the issue".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you think that Egypt and
Jordan are more advanced than the US ?

They use torture freely. The US doesn't

What do you mean by "freely" ? In particular, how does what Egypt do meet
the definition of "freely", and how does the US treatment of prisoners in
various facilities fail to meet that definition ?

Wait, got it: "not the issue".

Quoted message said:

Nothing to lose - these prisoners (according to my understanding) were
interrogated without result.

Yes, hence my point: "because we don't want them". The reason they were handed
off is not because they were first rate informants, it's because they were
useless. But again, "not the issue".

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > The so called prisoner abuse was intended to 'break' the prisoners.
>
> Which instances specifically ? Based on the photos etc, I'd say that
> the
> instances of abuse that resulted in public outrage were actually
> intended
> to release the frustrations of some of the soldiers.

Your opinion is conjecture as my opinion also would be

My opinion is based on the fact that as far as we know, the more severe
forms
of abuse were not ordered by the higher-ups.

Again that is conjecture - one man's word against another.

No, there was an investigation into the prisoner abuse scandals. They didn't
just interview two people, record their conflicting testimonies and call it
a day.

But I don't get why you're still debating this if it's not the issue. It seems
to me that you want to argue that torture is effective, so you make an
argument, and then retreat with the "it's not the issue" is a catch-all.

Quoted message said:

There are many variations of torture as are there many variations of
conventional interrogation which may not have been available over the
centuries. It is not so simple.
But go back to my statement above - these
are all side issues and not pertinent to my hypothesis

So why are you still arguing it ? (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > The so called prisoner abuse was intended to 'break' the

prisoners.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> Which instances specifically ? Based on the photos etc, I'd say that
>> the
>> instances of abuse that resulted in public outrage were actually
>> intended
>> to release the frustrations of some of the soldiers.
>
> Your opinion is conjecture as my opinion also would be

My opinion is based on the fact that as far as we know, the more severe
forms
of abuse were not ordered by the higher-ups.

Again that is conjecture - one man's word against another.

No, there was an investigation into the prisoner abuse scandals. They

didn't

Quoted message said:

just interview two people, record their conflicting testimonies and call

it

Quoted message said:

a day.

But I don't get why you're still debating this if it's not the issue. It

seems

Quoted message said:

to me that you want to argue that torture is effective, so you make an
argument, and then retreat with the "it's not the issue" is a catch-all.

Quoted message said:

There are many variations of torture as are there many variations of
conventional interrogation which may not have been available over the
centuries. It is not so simple.
But go back to my statement above - these
are all side issues and not pertinent to my hypothesis

So why are you still arguing it ? (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Torture in one form or another in my opionion is far more effective than
conventional techniques. But, you are right, it is not the issue! I am not
arguing in favour of torture but I am arguing in favour of giving the
government unfettered use of torture should they deem in necessary or more
effective than conventional methods. I know this is a fine point.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

Quoted message said:

But I disagree even in your hypothetical. For example, I don't

innocent

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people should be tortured. To require that innocent people aren't

tortured

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

a constraint, so this is one point where we disagree. You're OK with

torturing

Quoted message said:

innocent people, I'm not.

Now you are assuming that all prisoners subject to interrogation are
innocent.

No, I am not assuming this. I am assuming that there exist prisoners who

are

Quoted message said:

innocent.

Quoted message said:

The question is not whether they are innocent, it is whether they
have useful information. That would be very rare and I would take the

chance

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for the greater good

The "for the greater good" philosophy is interesting.

But it's not the general philosophy held in the US or even Australia. In

fact,

Quoted message said:

Australia and the US frequently criticse countries who adopt that

philosophy.

I know that and that is why I am suggesting that this be changed

Quoted message said:

[snip]

OK, I'm glad that you appear to be backing down from your argument about
torture being effective. But if it's "not the issue", I don't quite get

why

Quoted message said:

you keep debating the effectiveness of torture further down. Are you

conceding

Quoted message said:

the point, or not ?

I do believe torture techniques would certainly be effective - however I
acknowledge it is just a belief. Also as I said it is not the issue in any
case

[snip]

Quoted message said:

"Your understanding" is not an authoritative source. Do you have a better
one ?

If I had a better one I would not have couched it with 'my understanding'.
Of course it isn't the issed in any case

Quoted message said:

Wait, I know the answer to that one: "not the issue".

But you have previously arhied that the USA do not exclusively use
"conventional techniques". So, again, why wouldn't the USA just do it
themselves ?

Wait, got it: "not the issue".

If they used unconventional techniques it would have been illegaly.

[snip}

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They use torture freely. The US doesn't

What do you mean by "freely" ? In particular, how does what Egypt do meet
the definition of "freely", and how does the US treatment of prisoners in
various facilities fail to meet that definition ?

Egypt uses torture without constraint to the best of my knowledge. The USA
does not.

Quoted message said:

Wait, got it: "not the issue".

Quoted message said:

Nothing to lose - these prisoners (according to my understanding) were
interrogated without result.

Yes, hence my point: "because we don't want them". The reason they were

handed

Quoted message said:

off is not because they were first rate informants, it's because they were
useless. But again, "not the issue".

They are not 'handed off' - just loaned to these countries for interrogation
purposes to be returned

Quoted message said:

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

John Hanson said:

I don't believe torture is a very
reliable way to extract information.

You don't, eh?

| "While we do not stress the use of
| coercive techniques, we do want to
| make you aware of them and the proper
| way to use them," the manual's introduction
| states. The manual says such methods are
| justified when subjects have been trained
| to resist noncoercive measures.

See:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/055.html

Quoted message said:

I believe drugs are a better way of going.

And drugs *are* torture. Apparently torture encompasses much more than
a kick in the teeth, a pair of pliers, and an electric baton.
Whouldathunkit?

| Hypnosis and drugs: The 1983 manual
| suggests creating "hypnotic situations,"
| using concealed machinery, and offers
| ways of convincing a subject that he has
| been drugged. Giving him a placebo "may
| make him want to believe that he has been
| drugged and that no one could blame him
| for telling his story now," the manual says.

Again, see:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/055.html

| Before the Bush administration took office,
| the Army's interrogation procedures --
| which were unclassified -- established
| this simple and sensible test: No technique
| should be used that, if used by an enemy on
| an American, would be regarded as a violation
| of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine
| that a hostile government were to force an
| American to take drugs or endure severe
| mental stress that fell just short of
| producing irreversible damage

See:
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/06/11/washington_post_on_b.html

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

"Ranieri" <uh-uh> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"David" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding. There

can

Quoted message said:

be no rights for people who are intent on destroying our civilization.
Selective torture techniques must be on the menu for these barbarians or

we

Quoted message said:

are shirking our duty to protect our way of life. Really, if we knew

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

torture applied to one individual could have prevented 9/11 with 3000

lives

Quoted message said:

lost and 1000 billion dollars down the drain can there be any argument??

The

Quoted message said:

next strike could mean 1 million lives lost.

What if the whole point of 9/11 wasn't to destroy the commercial
underpinnings of western capitalism, but rather was intended to provide

the

Quoted message said:

impetus for the US government to destroy the Constitution on their own?

The Alquada people indicated they had no idea that they would achieve the
actual toppling of the 2 buildings. I doubt that they were nearly as
ambitious to intend either of the objectives you mention. But I guess
anything is possible with these people

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-07-30, David <[email hidden]> wrote:

We were going around in circles Donovan, but it was interesting nevertheless

On 30 Jul 2005 21:27:43 -0700, "Curt James" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Apparently torture encompasses much more than
a kick in the teeth, a pair of pliers, and an electric baton.

It all depends where you stick the baton. Some areas are more
sensetive than others LOL

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

Ranieri' uh-uh said:

What if the whole point of 9/11 wasn't to destroy the commercial
underpinnings of western capitalism, but rather was intended to provide the
impetus for the US government to destroy the Constitution on their own?

Do you REALLY think the terrorists are that smart? The morons didn't
even mean to destroy the buildings, that was a fluke they couldn't of
foreseen.

TBR
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and
more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day
the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the
White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
"Anyone with degrees from Yale and Harvard is presumed to be intelligent,
but George W. Bush has managed to overcome that presumption."

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

Then you are the problem, not the solution.

--Blair
"Rule of law, q.v."

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

Then you are the problem, not the solution.

--Blair
"Rule of law, q.v."

The problem is that there is no solution

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

Then you are the problem, not the solution.

--Blair
"Rule of law, q.v."

The problem is that there is no solution

David said:

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes to
extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

Then you are the problem, not the solution.

--Blair
"Rule of law, q.v."

The problem is that there is no solution

Then become a suicide bomber for Christ.

--Blair
"It's what the shallow-minded do."

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David said:

"Blair P. Houghton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David <[email hidden]> wrote:
>I firmly believe that western governments need to do whatever it takes

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>extract information from terrorists/bombers that they are holding.

Then you are the problem, not the solution.

--Blair
"Rule of law, q.v."

The problem is that there is no solution

Then become a suicide bomber for Christ.

Normally I would consider that as you know Christ died for our sins so it is
the least I can do. Only one problem - it's the virgins - 72 of them. Far
too many and plus I worry a little about virgins. Why are they still virgins
i.e. what is wrong with them? If they are virgins because they are young
then I don't fancy 11 year olds.