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Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
28 January 2004
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10 February 2004
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  1. working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    That's what Donald E. Harte, a chiropractic doctor in Corte Madera, CA,
    asserts in today's Open Forum column in the San Francisco Chronicle.
    (Perhaps someone better than I can "link it" as I can't currently do so
    with my webtv system as far as I know).

    Anyway, the article is entitled "Alternative to the Sting of a Failed
    Flu Vaccine". He does use some imprssive numbers freom the 1918 Flu
    Epidemic, though Homeopatic Doctors used somehat the same impressive
    numbers for that 1918 Epidemic too, though their choices of cities was
    different.

  2. <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

  3. "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

    Please provide proof for your statement.

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    That's what Donald E. Harte, a chiropractic doctor in Corte Madera, CA,
    asserts in today's Open Forum column in the San Francisco Chronicle.
    (Perhaps someone better than I can "link it" as I can't currently do so
    with my webtv system as far as I know).

    Anyway, the article is entitled "Alternative to the Sting of a Failed
    Flu Vaccine". He does use some imprssive numbers freom the 1918 Flu
    Epidemic, though Homeopatic Doctors used somehat the same impressive
    numbers for that 1918 Epidemic too, though their choices of cities was
    different.

    Are these figures supposedly showing the effectiveness of those modalities?
    If so, they are almost certainly completely fabricated. Properly designed
    studies were hardly known within mainstream medicine in those days.
    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:
  5. "mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

    Please provide proof for your statement.

    The thought that manipulating the spinal cord would do anything for viral
    diseases is too ridiculous to contemplate, it's like asking for proof the
    moon is not made of cheese.. So, no, I'm not going to indulge you.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

  6. "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "mdd" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...
    > working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

    Please provide proof for your statement.

    The thought that manipulating the spinal cord would do anything for viral
    diseases is too ridiculous to contemplate, it's like asking for proof the
    moon is not made of cheese.. So, no, I'm not going to indulge you.

    --
    Robert Bronsing


    In other words, you made your statement based on your own opinion and
    nothing more. Fair enough.

  7. Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:
    <[email hidden]>

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
    *significant* *credibile* *compelling*

    ZZzz.

    Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter Moran won't
    believe it.

    God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise, he would
    still be doubtful.

    Brainwashing is very powerful.

    Jan

  8. "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing


    Please provide proof for your statement.

    (Citations corrected to reflect who said what).

    This question is asked by an individual who weaseled, waffled and whined
    when ask for proof of it's assertions.

    IOW, another graduate of the Jan Drew School of Internet Hypocrisy.

  9. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:

    <[email hidden]

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
    *significant* *credibile* *compelling*

    ZZzz.

    Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter Moran won't
    believe it.

    God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise, he


    would

    Quoted message said:

    still be doubtful.

    Brainwashing is very powerful...

    and Jan Drew is living proof of this.

  10. "Mark ProbertJanuary 28, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...
    > working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    --
    Robert Bronsing


    Please provide proof for your statement.

    (Citations corrected to reflect who said what).

    This question is asked by an individual who weaseled, waffled and whined
    when ask for proof of it's assertions.

    IOW, another graduate of the Jan Drew School of Internet Hypocrisy.


    Goose, gander. Don't like it eh? Well, blowbert, YOU may provide the proof,
    if you can.

  11. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
    From: "Robert Bronsing" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/04 11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    Quoted message said:

    Robert Bronsing

    Of course it will.

    According to doctors who were testing the flu for "germ warfare" for the
    military in 1918 they were never able to make a healthy volunteer sick. The
    volunteers had to sit with, sleep, with and eat with the ill. They had their
    noses preped, their throats swabbed and so on. The ill were allowed to cough
    in the face of the volunteers. Yet, not one ever contacted the flu.

    At first they thought the disease was bacterial and caused by "Pfiffer's
    bacillus." We know better now because we have invented the virus to blame for
    the cause. Neither are correct.

    So, since neither bacteria nor made up viruses caused the flu of 1918 or the
    flu of today, then clearly chiropractic, homeopathy, or any reasonable
    treatment would "cure" the flu.

    DrC PhD
    When you know the truth
    the medical industry sucks

  12. The paragraph from Dr. Harte's "essay" concerning the 1918 Influenza
    Epidemic:

    "The Great Pandemic of 1918 ws the greatest plague of modern times. It
    is estimated to have killed between 25 million and 40 million people
    worldwide, about half a million in this country. History shows us that
    those under chiropractic car during the flu pandemic had a far better
    chance of survival. One example: medical doctors in Davenport Iowa
    treated 93,590 patients, with 6,116 deaths---in other words 1 out of 15
    succumbed to the flu. At The Palmer College of Chiropractic in
    Davenport, 1635 flu cases were adjustd, with only one fatility. Outside
    of Davenport, chiropractors adjusted 4,735 flu cases, wit only six
    deaths--1 out of 866. In 1919, Palmer published "The Flu & You". The
    ratio of flu cases cared for versus deaths wee as follw: Medical care:
    1 out of 17 died. Osteopathic care: 1 out of 36 died. Chiropractic
    care: 1 out of 886."

    My research: According to te 1920 US census, Iowa had a population of
    2.4 million citizens, while Davenport, Iowa had a population of
    approximately 54,000. Although I can't find how many "medical doctors"
    practiced in Davenport in 1918, it seems like it would have had to have
    been a pretty large number to "see" 93,590 patients over a perhaps a
    five month period, with the majority of cases popping up in maybe only
    three of those five months.

    Additionally, according to a recent article in the Des Moines, Iowa
    Register, there were approximatly 6,500 deaths attributed to the 1918
    Influenza Epidemic in ALL of Iowa. If Dr. Harte's figures are correct
    than Davenport would have had to have been the "epicenter" of that
    calamity, with only 2% of the population, but 94% of the deaths.

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    DRCEEPHD said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
    From: "Robert Bronsing" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/04 11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    Quoted message said:

    Robert Bronsing

    Of course it will.

    According to doctors who were testing the flu for "germ warfare" for the
    military in 1918 they were never able to make a healthy volunteer sick. The
    volunteers had to sit with, sleep, with and eat with the ill. They had their
    noses preped, their throats swabbed and so on. The ill were allowed to cough
    in the face of the volunteers. Yet, not one ever contacted the flu.

    I assume this story is as reliable as all of "Dr" Cee's other fairy
    tales, but at least it's new. I've never heard this one before.

    Anyone know where he got it? The notion that this flu couldn't be
    spread deliberately is quite implausible.

    Quoted message said:

    So, since neither bacteria nor made up viruses caused the flu of 1918
    or the flu of today, then clearly chiropractic, homeopathy, or any
    reasonable treatment would "cure" the flu.

    Since the premise is false, you can derive any conclusion from it, but
    even if it were true, the conclusion still wouldn't follow.

    -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
    These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
    "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
    were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

  14. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The paragraph from Dr. Harte's "essay" concerning the 1918 Influenza
    Epidemic:

    "The Great Pandemic of 1918 ws the greatest plague of modern times. It
    is estimated to have killed between 25 million and 40 million people
    worldwide, about half a million in this country. History shows us that
    those under chiropractic car during the flu pandemic had a far better
    chance of survival. One example: medical doctors in Davenport Iowa
    treated 93,590 patients, with 6,116 deaths---in other words 1 out of 15
    succumbed to the flu. At The Palmer College of Chiropractic in
    Davenport, 1635 flu cases were adjustd, with only one fatility. Outside
    of Davenport, chiropractors adjusted 4,735 flu cases, wit only six
    deaths--1 out of 866. In 1919, Palmer published "The Flu & You". The
    ratio of flu cases cared for versus deaths wee as follw: Medical care:
    1 out of 17 died. Osteopathic care: 1 out of 36 died. Chiropractic
    care: 1 out of 886."

    My research: According to te 1920 US census, Iowa had a population of
    2.4 million citizens, while Davenport, Iowa had a population of
    approximately 54,000. Although I can't find how many "medical doctors"
    practiced in Davenport in 1918, it seems like it would have had to have
    been a pretty large number to "see" 93,590 patients over a perhaps a
    five month period, with the majority of cases popping up in maybe only
    three of those five months.

    Additionally, according to a recent article in the Des Moines, Iowa
    Register, there were approximatly 6,500 deaths attributed to the 1918
    Influenza Epidemic in ALL of Iowa. If Dr. Harte's figures are correct
    than Davenport would have had to have been the "epicenter" of that
    calamity, with only 2% of the population, but 94% of the deaths.

    Not surprising to see once again see such anomalies in the figures quoted to
    support dubious regimes such as chiropractic. We see it all the time.

    Even if the figures were sound there is no assurance that chiropractors
    diagnose the flu accurately, or that patients seriously ill with the flu
    would consider it wise to rely on spinal manipulation as the sole
    treatment.

    Having said that, there were no useful treatments for either viral
    infections or pheumonia or respiratory failure secondary to them in the
    early 1900s.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:
  15. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:

    <[email hidden]

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
    *significant* *credibile* *compelling*

    ZZzz.

    Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter Moran won't
    believe it.

    God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise, he


    would

    Quoted message said:

    still be doubtful.

    Brainwashing is very powerful.

    So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza" to your nutty
    beliefs, Jan? OK.

    Peter Moran

    Quoted message said:


    Jan

  16. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/2004 8:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:
    <[email hidden]>

    "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/2004 12:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id:

    <[email hidden]

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and
    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    *Substantial* *real* *solid* *convincing* *hard* *clear-cut* *reasonable*
    *significant* *credibile* *compelling*

    ZZzz.

    Truth is if it is not endorsed by *organized medicine*, Peter Moran won't
    believe it.

    God himself could tap Peter on the shoulder and declare otherwise, he


    would

    Quoted message said:

    still be doubtful.

    Brainwashing is very powerful.

    So shall we add "spinal manipulation is a cure for influenza" to your nutty
    beliefs, Jan? OK.

    Peter Moran

    Nope, not OK. My beliefs are not nutty, but you are wrong in stating no
    cliniical studies have been done.

    We add another organized medicine post from you.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Chiropractic has NEVER performed any rigorous clinical studies, and

    Quoted message said:

    homeopathy has only ever done so in the last decade or so, without very
    convincing results.

    Quoted message said:

    Peter Moran

    Not true.

    http://tinyurl.com/2qpfw

    Is Chiropractic Unscientific?Mark Force, DCThe Elements of HealthScottsdale,
    Arizonawww.theelementsofhealth.comcommon criticism of chiropractic care is that
    scientific evidence does notsupport this type of health care and, as such,
    chiropractic is withoutmerit. Recently, I ran across a study that may play a
    part in helping to quellthis particular kind of criticism against the
    chiropractic profession.Here is the abstract from this research
    study:“Objective: To calculate the proportion of care delivered in a
    chiropracticpractice supported by good-quality clinical trials.Design:
    Retrospective survey.Methods: Data were collected from patient files relating
    to 180 consecutivepatient visits in a suburban chiropractic practice in
    northern Spain. Eachpatient's presenting complaint was paired with the
    chiropractor's chosenprimary intervention. Based on a literature review
    (Medline, Mantis, andnonautomated searches of local medical libraries), each
    presentingcomplaint–primary intervention pairing was categorized according to
    thelevel of supporting evidence as follows: Category I, intervention based
    ongood quality clinical trial evidence; Category II, intervention based on
    poor-quality or no clinical trial evidence. To distinguish between good- and
    poor-quality clinical trials, studies were critically appraised and assigned
    qualityscores.Results: Of the 180 cases surveyed, 123 (68.3%) (95% CI,
    61.5%-75.1%)were based on clinical trials of good methodologic quality
    (Category I). Only57 (31.7%) (95% CI, 24.9%-38.5%) of the cases were based on
    poor-quality or no clinical trial evidence (Category II).Conclusions: When
    patients were used as the denominator, the majority ofcases in a chiropractic
    practice were cared for with interventions based onevidence from good-quality,
    randomized clinical trials. When compared to themany other studies of similar
    design that have evaluated the extent to whichdifferent medical specialties are
    evidence based, chiropractic practice wasfound to have the highest proportion
    of care (68.3%) supported by good-quality experimental evidence. (J
    Manipulative Physiol Ther 2003;26:000)”Note: The underlining was added; full
    article available
    athttp://www2.us.elsevierhealth.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&s
    earchDBfor=iss&id=jpt030261&target=A
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ------
    Page 2
    Many major medical journals have in the last few years contained
    editorialswritten by medical (allopathic) physicians that claim that
    complementary andalternative medicine (CAM) approaches to health care, such as
    acupuncture,herbal medicine, hypnosis, etc., do not have scientific or clinical
    evidence tosubstantiate them. These writers have universally included
    chiropractic careas CAM.This study evaluated 180 consecutive patient visits of
    one chiropractor forthe support from the scientific and peer-reviewed
    literature for her treatmentmethods.The chiropractor is a graduate of an
    American accredited chiropractic collegeand practices in Barcelona, Spain.
    Since this is a retrospective study, thechiropractor didn’t know that her
    records would be used for this study whileshe was treating the patients whose
    notes comprised the study.The therapies used to treat the patients in this
    study were evaluated forwhether or not they were supported by published
    peer-review clinical studiesthat had a clinical methodology of solid design.It
    is interesting to note that chiropractic care, when compared to many othertypes
    of health care, showed the highest support from clinical studies. Thefindings
    of this comparison are listed below:= Pediatric general surgery (11%)=
    Inpatient general surgery (24%)= General practice (31%)= Inpatient general
    medicine (53%)= Acute general psychiatry (65%)= Chiropractic practice (68%)=
    Pediatric practice (40%)= Anesthesia practice (32%)= Internal medicine (65%)=
    General practice (38%)= Dermatology (38%)= General practice (drug treatment)
    (21%)= Hematology–oncology (24%)= Internal medicine (50%)It is important to
    note that this is one study and even though the structure ofthe study appears
    very sound from a research perspective, it is a pilot studycalling for more
    complete research, with a larger sampling, to follow. Thisstudy is also not an
    indictment of specialties that score with low percentagesfrom this study.
    Practice ultimately is justifiably based on extensive andcritical observation
    from clinical experience. Ultimately, more studies areneeded for all
    specialties with regard to their outcomes, safety, effectiveness,and cost to
    benefit.

    http://www.wellnesstoday.com/news_from_the_chiropractor.htm

    http://www.drlarrysmith.com/manga.htm

    http://www.drlighttouch.com/newsletter2.html

    Jan

  17. "DRCEEPHD" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Will a Chiropractic "Adjustment"...
    From: "Robert Bronsing" [email hidden]
    Date: 1/28/04 11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    working for preventing/treating the Flu?

    Of course not.

    Quoted message said:

    Robert Bronsing

    Of course it will.

    This is merely a reflection of your extreme ignorance in matters biological
    or medical.

    --
    Robert Bronsing

  18. One of the oddest "treatments" I ran across which was used in the 1918
    influenza epidemic was sitting in a bathtub filled with water & lots of
    chopped onions!

    Since my maternal grandfather died in that flu epidemic, I've always
    been personally interested in reading about it. Can't say I've EVER run
    across anything akin to Dr. "C's" contentions though. Apparently the
    flu spread quickly through the US Army camps, including Fort Dodge in
    Iowa, without any problem.

  19. "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mark ProbertJanuary 28, 2004" <[email hidden]> wrote
    in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "mdd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Robert Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    >
    > <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
    > news:[email hidden]...
    > > working for preventing/treating the Flu?
    >
    > Of course not.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Robert Bronsing
    >
    Please provide proof for your statement.

    (Citations corrected to reflect who said what).

    This question is asked by an individual who weaseled, waffled and whined
    when ask for proof of it's assertions.

    IOW, another graduate of the Jan Drew School of Internet Hypocrisy.


    Goose, gander. Don't like it eh? Well, blowbert, YOU may provide the


    proof,

    Quoted message said:

    if you can.

    You made assertions, now back them up, or remain the fool that you are.

  20. "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:40188cbd$0$832$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-

    Quoted message said:


    Having said that, there were no useful treatments for either viral
    infections or pheumonia or respiratory failure secondary to them in the
    early 1900s.

    Peter Moran


    Did China have a problem with the "Great Flu Epidemic"? If not, why? Might
    it be that the Chinese had effective methods to deal with such?

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