Probiotics?

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
hence they could not popululate the intestines as
they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
bifidobacterium, etc.)

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by rigid
cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help
establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on
your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
EK

"EK" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by rigid
cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help
establish normal microflora.

The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what
food you are eating. Normally the stomach will go alkaline to allow
the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food, then over
about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a
2 pH. This pH change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the
proteolytic ( protein ) digesting enzymes. This also affects the
bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may just
become dormant.

The best way to grow the correct bacteria for a healthy colon is to
stop eating meat ( meat stimulates bacteria which turns the colon
alkaline ) and eat some corn starch. The starch cannot be digested
by our enzymes and reaches the colon intact. There, the bacteria will
act upon the starch and turn the colon slightly acidic.

Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on

Quoted message said:

your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
EK

You are wrong there. The strong acid combined with the action of the
pepsin would most definately eat a hole in your skin.

DrC PhD

EK said:

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
hence they could not popululate the intestines as
they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
bifidobacterium, etc.)

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by rigid
cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help
establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce on
your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
EK

True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the
stomach acid. The vast majority of the bugs in probiotic product are
killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few to
survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very
rapidly. One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to
stop invaders getting in there!

The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though!
Also, bacterial cells dont have many layers of epidermal cells to
protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach acid are designed
to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc).
Most gut bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these
protective mechanisms and thus most of them are killed. I think a lot of
(but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

Scott.

(drceephd) said:

The human stomach can and does make a pH change depending upon what
food you are eating. Normally the stomach will go alkaline to allow
the carbohydrate enzymes to digest the carbs in your food, then over
about a 30 minute period, the stomach will go acidic, down to around a
2 pH. This pH change stops the carbohydrate enzymes and activates the
proteolytic ( protein ) digesting enzymes. This also affects the
bacteria and may or may not kill the critters. The bacteria may just
become dormant.

The gastric pH drops after a meal because of the food in the stomach,
not because the stomach is intentionally lowering the pH. In fact,
eating stimulates acid production in the stomach.

PF

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by rigid
cell walls?

Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice
thick layer of mucus.

PF

This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with
byle from the liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This,
I would assume, is for a reason.

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
hence they could not popululate the intestines as
they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
bifidobacterium, etc.)

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EK said:

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
hence they could not popululate the intestines as
they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
bifidobacterium, etc.)

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by

rigid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help
establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
EK

True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the
stomach acid. The vast majority of the bugs in probiotic product are
killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few to
survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very
rapidly. One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to
stop invaders getting in there!

Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a
thick layer of gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such
capsules would survive the stomach, because the food does not spen much
longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat of dry
gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are
viable, which I guess is not too much.

Quoted message said:

The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though!
Also, bacterial cells dont have many layers of epidermal cells to
protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach acid are designed
to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc).
Most gut bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these
protective mechanisms and thus most of them are killed. I think a lot of
(but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected
from harsh conditions that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice
put on a greasy skin would cause almost nothing compared to a drop put on
degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions as well to
stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...

Quoted message said:

Scott.

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:05:54 -0600, "EK" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by

rigid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cell walls?

Except the gastric epithelial cells protect themselves with a nice
thick layer of mucus.

So bacteria could do the same for a change. Many bacteria are capable of
producing a thick mucous capsules.

Quoted message said:

PF

EK said:

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EK said:

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
>supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?
>
>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
>hence they could not popululate the intestines as
>they are supposed to.
>
>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
>conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
>bifidobacterium, etc.)

Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that are
made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by

rigid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations don't
survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to help
establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
EK

True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the
stomach acid. The vast majority of the bugs in probiotic product are
killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few to
survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very
rapidly. One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to
stop invaders getting in there!

Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with a
thick layer of gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such
capsules would survive the stomach, because the food does not spen much
longer time in stomach than it takes to dissolve a thick coat of dry
gelatine. Another question is though how many cells in those capsules are
viable, which I guess is not too much.

Yeah, certainly if they're encapsulated they'll survive longer. Lots of
those capsules are designed to be solid at low pH and break down only
when they become alkaline (i.e. after the stomach). So in that case,
most of them would get through. I dont know anything about the viability
inside the capsules. The ones that I doubted are products like Yakult
and similar. Most of the cells in that would not survive, I think.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The thing about the hand, though... it would do you some damage, though!
Also, bacterial cells dont have many layers of epidermal cells to
protect them! Most bacteria that can survive stomach acid are designed
to survive it with various defence mechanisms (i.e. Helicobacter etc).
Most gut bacteria and those found in probiotics dont have these
protective mechanisms and thus most of them are killed. I think a lot of
(but not neccessarily all) probiotics are useless.

I was just trying to make a point that there some cells are more protected
from harsh conditions that the others. Buy the way, a drop of stomach juice
put on a greasy skin would cause almost nothing compared to a drop put on
degreased skin or on a bare flesh. And skin is also functions as well to
stop invaders and to protect from harch conditions...

Yup, but not bugs (:

Yeah, it's for a reason - but the reason isnt to allow bacteria to get
through!

Gymmy Bob said:

This seems very reasonable since the stomach acid has to be neutralized with
byle from the liver/gallbladder before the flora can act on the food. This,
I would assume, is for a reason.

"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?

Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
hence they could not popululate the intestines as
they are supposed to.

Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
bifidobacterium, etc.)

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post. Long posts are truncated
by many ISPs

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EK said:

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

EK wrote:

>"Martin Lynch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>Can the microogranisms found in your typical probiotic
>>supplement survive the acidic environment of the stomach?
>>
>>Seems to me the HCL would just kill all the microbes,
>>hence they could not popululate the intestines as
>>they are supposed to.
>>
>>Perhaps a microbiologist would know better, what kind of
>>conditions these probiotics can survive (L. acidophilus,
>>bifidobacterium, etc.)
>
>
>Don't you think that if cells of the inner layer of the stomach that

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>made of proteins and such can survive in digestive fluids, so could the
>bacteria made of same or similar proteins and such, plus protected by

rigid

Quoted message said:

>cell walls? Even if some bacteria you take with those preparations

don't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>survive through the stomach, some do, and that is usually enough to

help

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>establish normal microflora. Buy the way, if you put some stomach jiuce

on

Quoted message said:

>your hand, it woun't burn a hole in your skin. Do you see my point? :-)
>EK
>

True, but it's not just 'some' of the cells that are killed by the
stomach acid. The vast majority of the bugs in probiotic product are
killed by the stomach acid. But as you say, it only takes a few to
survive for them to establish colony in the gut. They multiply very
rapidly. One of the reasons the stomach acid is there, afterall, is to
stop invaders getting in there!

Most probiotics I've seen are supplied in a form of capsules coated with

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

thick layer of gelatin. I guess more that just a few bacteria in such
capsules would survive the stomach, because the food does not spen much
longer time i

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

PF

I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.

Paper styles are obsolete.

Welcome to the 90s

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

PF

Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should
post in what manner. But here is my opinion.

1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll
top post to keep the flow so it makes sense to anyone reading it later
on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll do for the same reason.

I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are
broken and you want to know what the rest of the discussion is about, it
is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also post throughout the
original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post
like it or not.

Scott.

Gymmy Bob said:

I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.

Paper styles are obsolete.

Welcome to the 90s

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

PF

It is your assumption that I do it through lazyness.

Scott.

Gymmy Bob said:

I don't need all the garbage from the garbage lazy people out there anyway.

Paper styles are obsolete.

Welcome to the 90s

"PF Riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

PF

PF Riley said:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:

- I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as
they often are) the message still makes some sense. True, I often trim
some of the message, but not always.

- I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes
sense. I dont care how people post, as long as it is constant. If there
has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been a bottom post,
I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top
post, then bottom post, then top post again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

Agreed.

Scott.

I prefer when I post for people to read it and not discard it like most do
with bottom posting. This truncating feature offered by ISPs, newsreaders
and newservers is great when bandwidth is a premium, like it is for the
majority of users. Mexico and South America usually doesn't see these
features as they have so much more bandwidth than most of North Americans.
The USA, Canada and much of Europe have bandwidth problems with their dialup
wireless and and wired modem services.

Most considerate people top post or at least trim out the repetitive garbage
and make their point in a paragragh or two. The ones that don't usually just
want to see themselves post and are not that interesting to continue that
far down the page.

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I'm not going to turn this into a pathetic war about who should
post in what manner. But here is my opinion.

1. if you're ISP is not giving adequate service, get a new one.
2. I will post how the thread is going - if it's top posting, then I'll
top post to keep the flow so it makes sense to anyone reading it later
on. If it's bottom posted, then that's what I'll do for the same reason.

I wont cut too much from a thread because often, when the threads are
broken and you want to know what the rest of the discussion is about, it
is usefull to have it in place. Often, I also post throughout the
original poster's text to aid clarity. Then, you will get a long post
like it or not.

The previous posts tell the story if somebody wants the history. When you
bottom post readers have to wade through piles of repeated history to get to
todays message. Most won't even bother unless it is super interesting. Not
many here have the literary skills to be chased through a long text
repititive header, more header and two lines of real text.

If you want people to read your post then top post.

If you don't care if people read your message...then why post at all?

"Scott Coutts" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

PF Riley said:

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 20:26:39 -0500, "Gymmy Bob" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Either top post or trim the [censored] out of the post.

Trim [censored]. NEVER top post.

I write newsgroup posts to preserve their meaning. So this means that:

- I try to leave original text in place, so when threads are broken (as
they often are) the message still makes some sense. True, I often trim
some of the message, but not always.

- I post how the original poster has done it so that it still makes
sense. I dont care how people post, as long as it is constant. If there
has been a top post, I'll continue it. If there's been a bottom post,
I'll continue it. The only time it causes a problem is when people top
post, then bottom post, then top post again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Long posts are truncated by many ISPs

Then get a new ISP.

Agreed.

Scott.

Ok, now I think maybe this is a troll, so this is the last I'll say
about it:

Gymmy Bob said:

The previous posts tell the story if somebody wants the history.

As I said, threads are often broken. Especially when you're reading ones
that are old. The previous messages are very often lost and these 'cut'
discussions will lose their context and meaning when this happens. I
like to think of all this stuff that goes around the usenet as being
useful not just now, but in the future. If an article is expired from
one person's news server but not anothers, then you end up with a new
thread labeled, for example "Re: Probiotics?" and the single message
that has been replied to is now the top of the thread. If all of the
previous information has been cut, then this has context only for the
person that replied.

Quoted message said:

When you bottom post readers have to wade through piles
of repeated history to get to todays message.

The quote marks show the current message. That's what they're for. I
really can't believe that it is too much effort for people to scroll to
the bottom of the message.

Quoted message said:

Most won't even bother unless it is super interesting.

I don't think you can say "Most people wont even bother...". I assume
that anyone who reads the thread will be reading because they're
interested. If someone has posted a question, and they want the answer,
it seems doubtful that they will abandon it because there happens to be
some text beforehand. If they do, then I don't really mind. I never
leave "piles of repeated history" but I leave usually the previous three
or four comments to preserve some context.

Quoted message said:

Not many here have the literary skills to be chased through a long
repititive header, more header and two lines of real text.

Well, this makes me think you're just trolling. If you're not, then I
think a lot of people, particularly those that read these groups, would
be somewhat offended by that statement.

Quoted message said:

If you want people to read your post then top post.

As I said, I'll post in a fashion that keeps context and makes the most
sense... whether it be top, bottom, or intermingled as is the case with
this post.

Quoted message said:

If you don't care if people read your message...then why post at all?

I don't care if *everyone* reads my message. If you're not interested,
then feel free to skip my message. I've never had a problem with it
before. You speak for yourself, not for everyone else.

Scott.