EMS units?

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Quoted message said:

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.>

Typical "musclebound [censored]" logic. See with his reading comprehension
level at that of a 2nd grader, he missed the part where you said "in
addition too" and instead labeled you as a slacker. Ignore the jerk.
As long as it's in addition to your WO's, and you don't shorten their
duration or intensity, it can't hurt.

Quoted message said:

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.>

Typical "musclebound [censored]" logic. See with his reading comprehension
level at that of a 2nd grader, he missed the part where you said "in
addition too" and instead labeled you as a slacker. Ignore the jerk.
As long as it's in addition to your WO's, and you don't shorten their
duration or intensity, it can't hurt.

Lance one ball Armstrong said:

Quoted message said:

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.>

Typical "musclebound [censored]" logic. See with his reading comprehension
level at that of a 2nd grader, he missed the part where you said "in
addition too" and instead labeled you as a slacker. Ignore the jerk.
As long as it's in addition to your WO's, and you don't shorten their
duration or intensity, it can't hurt.

It won't provide any meaningful gains, either, moron. However, he will
find himself slightly lighter, as the device will remove some weight
from his wallett. Now go back to ordering your ab-rocker from the
infomercial website.

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

And where did you read that?

In article <[email hidden]>,

spodosaurus spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

Mmmm... like the three years I had to rest my left shoulder due to a
rotator cuff injury? ;-)

At one point, I could not even lift my arm up all the way. :-P

No surgery, just time, patience and "rice".
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

And where did you read that?

Muscular Development Magazine, Sept. 2005 issue, page 94 under "research
training".

Quoting:

Reference: J. Strength Cond. Res, 19: 438-448, 2005.

Electrical Muscle Stimulation is a Good Training Aid

Muscles contract when they receive signals from the nervous system.
Electrical muscle stimulators can work like "nerves" to trigger muscle
contraction. Russian athletes often use electrical muscle stimulation
(EMS) as an adjunct to training method during the 1970's. The method is
appealing because all you have to do is apply electrodes to the target
muscles and turn up the juice. EMS is an effective way to increase
muscle strength, particularly in atheletes recovering from injury or
surgery. It is not, however, superior to weight training. EMS stimulates
mainly fast-twitch motor units and does little to train muscle
elasticity, so it doesn't build muscles the way we use them on the
playing field or in daily life. EMS can be used as an adjunct training
method, but will not replace hard work in the weight room.

Makes me wonder if this would be of most benefit to, say, runners etc.
rather than strength athletes?
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

And where did you read that?

Muscular Development Magazine, Sept. 2005 issue, page 94 under "research
training".

Tsk, tsk, tsk. A bright person like you reading muscle comics?

Quoted message said:

Quoting:

Reference: J. Strength Cond. Res, 19: 438-448, 2005.

So that's is what I read, instead.

Quoted message said:

Electrical Muscle Stimulation is a Good Training Aid

Muscles contract when they receive signals from the nervous system.
Electrical muscle stimulators can work like "nerves" to trigger muscle
contraction. Russian athletes often use electrical muscle stimulation
(EMS) as an adjunct to training method during the 1970's. The method is
appealing because all you have to do is apply electrodes to the target
muscles and turn up the juice. EMS is an effective way to increase
muscle strength, particularly in atheletes recovering from injury or
surgery. It is not, however, superior to weight training. EMS stimulates
mainly fast-twitch motor units and does little to train muscle
elasticity, so it doesn't build muscles the way we use them on the
playing field or in daily life. EMS can be used as an adjunct training
method, but will not replace hard work in the weight room.

Not a particularly good interpretation of the review. First, it's not
absolutely clear that EMS causes a preferential, reverse recruitment
of motor units with fast-twitch units being recruited first. It is
fairly clear that, particularly at high frequencies, it does recruit
fast-twitch fibers right away, instead of the gradual move from
slow-twitch units to fast-twitch units that one gets with voluntary
contractions.

Another thing that the cited studies showed is that EMS, in
combination with voluntary contractions, may not provide any
significant increase in fiber cross-sectional size amongst fast-twitch
fibers, and if there was an increase in cross-sectional size, it was
in both slow-twitch and fast-twitch fibers. Basically, no significant
increase in muscular hypertrophy, so not much help for bodybuilders.

What the studies did find is that when EMS was used in combination
with voluntary contractions, it did cause significant increases in
both isometric and dynamic strength. It takes a pretty good current
and frequency, though. Still, the strength increase seems to
continue, even when the EMS is not used. They theorize that this is
the result of neural training, basically adapting the fast-twitch
fibers to be recruited sooner.

Quoted message said:

Makes me wonder if this would be of most benefit to, say, runners etc.
rather than strength athletes?

I would think just the opposite, since the truly significant finding
is that EMS in combination with voluntary contractions increases
strength, apparently by adapting neuromuscular training toward quicker
recruitment of fast-twitch fibers. Ironically, the greatest benefit
would probably be for powerlifters who think it's silly.

--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

In article <[email hidden]>,

JMW said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

JMW said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
>not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
>might be holding you back from faster progress.
>
>If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
>afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
>beneficial?
>
>I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
>heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

And where did you read that?

Muscular Development Magazine, Sept. 2005 issue, page 94 under "research
training".

Tsk, tsk, tsk. A bright person like you reading muscle comics?

It's better than "Flex"... ;-)

Granted, while it's mostly entertainment, it _does_ have some excellent
supplement updates and information. The 'net or actual sports medicine
journals would probably be better but I don't have as much time as I'd
like to do a lot of reading.

That's why I went ahead and cited their source.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoting:

Reference: J. Strength Cond. Res, 19: 438-448, 2005.

So that's is what I read, instead.

I suppose I could get a subscription to that on line?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Electrical Muscle Stimulation is a Good Training Aid

Muscles contract when they receive signals from the nervous system.
Electrical muscle stimulators can work like "nerves" to trigger muscle
contraction. Russian athletes often use electrical muscle stimulation
(EMS) as an adjunct to training method during the 1970's. The method is
appealing because all you have to do is apply electrodes to the target
muscles and turn up the juice. EMS is an effective way to increase
muscle strength, particularly in atheletes recovering from injury or
surgery. It is not, however, superior to weight training. EMS stimulates
mainly fast-twitch motor units and does little to train muscle
elasticity, so it doesn't build muscles the way we use them on the
playing field or in daily life. EMS can be used as an adjunct training
method, but will not replace hard work in the weight room.

Not a particularly good interpretation of the review. First, it's not
absolutely clear that EMS causes a preferential, reverse recruitment
of motor units with fast-twitch units being recruited first. It is
fairly clear that, particularly at high frequencies, it does recruit
fast-twitch fibers right away, instead of the gradual move from
slow-twitch units to fast-twitch units that one gets with voluntary
contractions.

Another thing that the cited studies showed is that EMS, in
combination with voluntary contractions, may not provide any
significant increase in fiber cross-sectional size amongst fast-twitch
fibers, and if there was an increase in cross-sectional size, it was
in both slow-twitch and fast-twitch fibers. Basically, no significant
increase in muscular hypertrophy, so not much help for bodybuilders.

Ok.

Quoted message said:

What the studies did find is that when EMS was used in combination
with voluntary contractions, it did cause significant increases in
both isometric and dynamic strength. It takes a pretty good current
and frequency, though. Still, the strength increase seems to
continue, even when the EMS is not used. They theorize that this is
the result of neural training, basically adapting the fast-twitch
fibers to be recruited sooner.

Quoted message said:

Makes me wonder if this would be of most benefit to, say, runners etc.
rather than strength athletes?

I would think just the opposite, since the truly significant finding
is that EMS in combination with voluntary contractions increases
strength, apparently by adapting neuromuscular training toward quicker
recruitment of fast-twitch fibers. Ironically, the greatest benefit
would probably be for powerlifters who think it's silly.

Thanks for the clarification!
At this point, I'm more after strength gains than size gains, so I'll
have to think on this further.

Thank you! :-)
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-[censored]." -Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

spodosaurus spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com said:

OmManiPadmeOmelet said:

Was curious about the use of Neuromuscular stimulation IN ADDITION TO,
not in place of, weight lifting for, say, a weaker muscle group that
might be holding you back from faster progress.

If you worked that set of muscles well and then applied an EMS unit
afterwards, (say, while one is relaxing on usenet ;-) ) can it be
beneficial?

I understand that they tend to activate different muscle fibers than
heavy lifting does, at least according to what I've read recently.

Opinions?

Waste of money for slackers trying to get something for no effort.
Useless unless you're coming back from a nasty injury or surgery and
they're being used for rehab.

Mmmm... like the three years I had to rest my left shoulder due to a
rotator cuff injury? ;-)

At one point, I could not even lift my arm up all the way. :-P

No surgery, just time, patience and "rice".

Yep, like I said, for rehab they have their uses. Which RC muscle/tendon
did you hurt?

--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/