Cycle Map

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I guess everyone's needs are different and that's why a national map has
never been attempted.

I feel that cyclists needs are ignored on the current crop of maps and it
would be nice to have a UK National Cycle map, with perhaps quieter
flatter roads being shown as major cycle routes.

There's you first major problem. Much of the UK *isn't* 'flatter' and
there's a lot of it which isn't necessarily filled with 'quieter' roads, so
with those priorities, you effectively negate much of the UK form cycling
;-)

Quoted message said:

From there you could start to build a national cycle network rather than
the car oriented network we have today. Filling in the gaps with new cycle
routes, underpasses, direct cycle-only routes. The M1 of the cycling world
could be called C1 or something.

Many of our roads were built *before* the advent of the car and even on the
ones built after the introduction of the car they are perfectly suitable for
cycling on. They are the sort I cycle on almost every day, as do thousand
upon thousand of other cyclists in the UK. We have a national cycle
network - it's called the road network.

Quoted message said:

I was sitting down one evening and wondered why we all settle for maps
which are drawn for car drivers as they may not necessarily offer the kind
of information a cyclist wants. I didn't take the thought any further,
like why they wouldn't be useful to cyclists, I was more wondering whether
anyone had ever asked cyclists what kind of map they would like.

I suggest they aren't necessarily drawn up for car users - they are drawn up
for road users, many of which use a car to get from A to B. This doesn't
mean they are of no use for other road users. I use OS maps and OS based
maps to work out routes irrespective of whether I'm travelling by car, cycle
or walking. I think you'll find that many a cyclist on this newsgroup is not
enamoured of supposedly 'cycle-specific' routes, paths, etc., as they are
often the last routes an experienced cyclist will take. Why? All too often
in the UK such cycle-specific routes are not conducive to enjoyable cycling.

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

My pennys worth

Mk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I feel that cyclists needs are ignored on the current crop of maps and
it would be nice to have a UK National Cycle map, with perhaps quieter
flatter roads being shown as major cycle routes.

There's you first major problem. Much of the UK *isn't* 'flatter' and
there's a lot of it which isn't necessarily filled with 'quieter' roads,
so with those priorities, you effectively negate much of the UK form
cycling ;-)

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would
highlight areas in desperate need of development in order to attract
leisure cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which
roads can be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads not
on OS maps for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From there you could start to build a national cycle network rather
than the car oriented network we have today. Filling in the gaps with
new cycle routes, underpasses, direct cycle-only routes. The M1 of the
cycling world could be called C1 or something.

Many of our roads were built *before* the advent of the car and even on
the ones built after the introduction of the car they are perfectly
suitable for cycling on. They are the sort I cycle on almost every day,
as do thousand upon thousand of other cyclists in the UK. We have a
national cycle network - it's called the road network.

Yes, over 99% of roads are suitable, but some are a lot more suitable
than others. Also, your definition of suitable depends on many factors
- risk assessment, fitness of cyclist, enjoyment, air polution.

I am pleased I have a right to cycle on almost every road, but there are
a fair few I would consider out of bounds to most cyclists - A14
junction 6 through 14 for example 'dedicated cycle lane'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was sitting down one evening and wondered why we all settle for maps
which are drawn for car drivers as they may not necessarily offer the
kind of information a cyclist wants. I didn't take the thought any
further, like why they wouldn't be useful to cyclists, I was more
wondering whether anyone had ever asked cyclists what kind of map they
would like.

I suggest they aren't necessarily drawn up for car users - they are
drawn up for road users, many of which use a car to get from A to B.
This doesn't mean they are of no use for other road users. I use OS maps
and OS based maps to work out routes irrespective of whether I'm
travelling by car, cycle or walking. I think you'll find that many a
cyclist on this newsgroup is not enamoured of supposedly
'cycle-specific' routes, paths, etc., as they are often the last routes
an experienced cyclist will take. Why? All too often in the UK such
cycle-specific routes are not conducive to enjoyable cycling.

Fair point.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

My pennys worth

Mk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I feel that cyclists needs are ignored on the current crop of maps and
it would be nice to have a UK National Cycle map, with perhaps quieter
flatter roads being shown as major cycle routes.

There's you first major problem. Much of the UK *isn't* 'flatter' and
there's a lot of it which isn't necessarily filled with 'quieter' roads,
so with those priorities, you effectively negate much of the UK form
cycling ;-)

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would
highlight areas in desperate need of development in order to attract
leisure cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which
roads can be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads not
on OS maps for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From there you could start to build a national cycle network rather
than the car oriented network we have today. Filling in the gaps with
new cycle routes, underpasses, direct cycle-only routes. The M1 of the
cycling world could be called C1 or something.

Many of our roads were built *before* the advent of the car and even on
the ones built after the introduction of the car they are perfectly
suitable for cycling on. They are the sort I cycle on almost every day,
as do thousand upon thousand of other cyclists in the UK. We have a
national cycle network - it's called the road network.

Yes, over 99% of roads are suitable, but some are a lot more suitable
than others. Also, your definition of suitable depends on many factors
- risk assessment, fitness of cyclist, enjoyment, air polution.

I am pleased I have a right to cycle on almost every road, but there are
a fair few I would consider out of bounds to most cyclists - A14
junction 6 through 14 for example 'dedicated cycle lane'.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was sitting down one evening and wondered why we all settle for maps
which are drawn for car drivers as they may not necessarily offer the
kind of information a cyclist wants. I didn't take the thought any
further, like why they wouldn't be useful to cyclists, I was more
wondering whether anyone had ever asked cyclists what kind of map they
would like.

I suggest they aren't necessarily drawn up for car users - they are
drawn up for road users, many of which use a car to get from A to B.
This doesn't mean they are of no use for other road users. I use OS maps
and OS based maps to work out routes irrespective of whether I'm
travelling by car, cycle or walking. I think you'll find that many a
cyclist on this newsgroup is not enamoured of supposedly
'cycle-specific' routes, paths, etc., as they are often the last routes
an experienced cyclist will take. Why? All too often in the UK such
cycle-specific routes are not conducive to enjoyable cycling.

Fair point.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

My pennys worth

Mk

wafflycat' waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk of said:

Remember too the fiiter you become the less frequently you require
toppong up. When I first got back on a bike after years off one, I couldn't
cycle 5 miles into my nearest town without several stops for a drink. Thing
is, you *quickly* notice an improvement in fitness with cycling.

Only up to a point. For me that point is one 700ml bottle for 2 hours
riding, plus a couple of cups of tea every 4 hours or so. Seems to be about
twice the rate of everyone else, but then I seem to drink more than most
people even when sat at a desk.
--
Get your facts first; then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email hidden]
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>

wafflycat' waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk of said:

Remember too the fiiter you become the less frequently you require
toppong up. When I first got back on a bike after years off one, I couldn't
cycle 5 miles into my nearest town without several stops for a drink. Thing
is, you *quickly* notice an improvement in fitness with cycling.

Only up to a point. For me that point is one 700ml bottle for 2 hours
riding, plus a couple of cups of tea every 4 hours or so. Seems to be about
twice the rate of everyone else, but then I seem to drink more than most
people even when sat at a desk.
--
Get your facts first; then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain
Steph Peters delete invalid from [email hidden]
Tatting, lace & stitching page <http://www.sandbenders.demon.co.uk/index.htm>

John_Kane said:

Ah the advantages of living in the UK, pubs every half mile. 🙂

I don't think I've ever lived anywhere where they were as sparse as that.
--
Chris

John_Kane said:

Ah the advantages of living in the UK, pubs every half mile. 🙂

I don't think I've ever lived anywhere where they were as sparse as that.
--
Chris

Mk said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map.

Define 'too steep'. I was wandering up a few hills last night that one
might consider a bit steep, but the marked cycle route (NCN 77) goes up
a 1 in 5 further on.

IME there is nothing too steep to get up on a 24" gear.

...d

Mk said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map.

Define 'too steep'. I was wandering up a few hills last night that one
might consider a bit steep, but the marked cycle route (NCN 77) goes up
a 1 in 5 further on.

IME there is nothing too steep to get up on a 24" gear.

...d

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would highlight
areas in desperate need of development in order to attract leisure
cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which roads can
be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads not on OS maps
for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

There is the major flaw in your plan. By omitting roads *you* think are too
busy/too steep/etc., etc., you are effectively saying swathes of the UK are
unavailable for cycling, thus putting off people from cycling. You defeat
the very purpose you have in mind - to help people to cycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From there you could start to build a national cycle network rather than
the car oriented network we have today. Filling in the gaps with new
cycle routes, underpasses, direct cycle-only routes. The M1 of the
cycling world could be called C1 or something.

Many of our roads were built *before* the advent of the car and even on
the ones built after the introduction of the car they are perfectly
suitable for cycling on. They are the sort I cycle on almost every day,
as do thousand upon thousand of other cyclists in the UK. We have a
national cycle network - it's called the road network.

Yes, over 99% of roads are suitable, but some are a lot more suitable than
others. Also, your definition of suitable depends on many factors - risk
assessment, fitness of cyclist, enjoyment, air polution.

As does *your* definition. By your negating roads, you are imposing your
choice of roads on cyclists. Which is a Seriously Bad Thing to do. Tell me,
just what would *your* level of risk assessment, fitness of cyclist,
enjoyment etc., etc be before you decide whether or not to put a road on
your map as being suitable for cyclists?

Quoted message said:

I am pleased I have a right to cycle on almost every road, but there are a
fair few I would consider out of bounds to most cyclists - A14 junction 6
through 14 for example 'dedicated cycle lane'.

As I stated early on in my posts on the thread, and has been stated by
others, local knowledge is vital. But you are already excluding roads
because you think them too steep, too busy etc., so you are imposing your
choice on others who may be more experienced than you and what is a
'dangerous' road to you may well be perfectly acceptable to others... yet
you have already 'negated' them, exlcuded them from your map, effectively
putting people of cycling.

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was sitting down one evening and wondered why we all settle for maps
which are drawn for car drivers as they may not necessarily offer the
kind of information a cyclist wants. I didn't take the thought any
further, like why they wouldn't be useful to cyclists, I was more
wondering whether anyone had ever asked cyclists what kind of map they
would like.

I suggest they aren't necessarily drawn up for car users - they are drawn
up for road users, many of which use a car to get from A to B. This
doesn't mean they are of no use for other road users. I use OS maps and
OS based maps to work out routes irrespective of whether I'm travelling
by car, cycle or walking. I think you'll find that many a cyclist on this
newsgroup is not enamoured of supposedly 'cycle-specific' routes, paths,
etc., as they are often the last routes an experienced cyclist will take.
Why? All too often in the UK such cycle-specific routes are not conducive
to enjoyable cycling.

Fair point.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

My pennys worth

Mk

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would highlight
areas in desperate need of development in order to attract leisure
cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which roads can
be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads not on OS maps
for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

There is the major flaw in your plan. By omitting roads *you* think are too
busy/too steep/etc., etc., you are effectively saying swathes of the UK are
unavailable for cycling, thus putting off people from cycling. You defeat
the very purpose you have in mind - to help people to cycle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From there you could start to build a national cycle network rather than
the car oriented network we have today. Filling in the gaps with new
cycle routes, underpasses, direct cycle-only routes. The M1 of the
cycling world could be called C1 or something.

Many of our roads were built *before* the advent of the car and even on
the ones built after the introduction of the car they are perfectly
suitable for cycling on. They are the sort I cycle on almost every day,
as do thousand upon thousand of other cyclists in the UK. We have a
national cycle network - it's called the road network.

Yes, over 99% of roads are suitable, but some are a lot more suitable than
others. Also, your definition of suitable depends on many factors - risk
assessment, fitness of cyclist, enjoyment, air polution.

As does *your* definition. By your negating roads, you are imposing your
choice of roads on cyclists. Which is a Seriously Bad Thing to do. Tell me,
just what would *your* level of risk assessment, fitness of cyclist,
enjoyment etc., etc be before you decide whether or not to put a road on
your map as being suitable for cyclists?

Quoted message said:

I am pleased I have a right to cycle on almost every road, but there are a
fair few I would consider out of bounds to most cyclists - A14 junction 6
through 14 for example 'dedicated cycle lane'.

As I stated early on in my posts on the thread, and has been stated by
others, local knowledge is vital. But you are already excluding roads
because you think them too steep, too busy etc., so you are imposing your
choice on others who may be more experienced than you and what is a
'dangerous' road to you may well be perfectly acceptable to others... yet
you have already 'negated' them, exlcuded them from your map, effectively
putting people of cycling.

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was sitting down one evening and wondered why we all settle for maps
which are drawn for car drivers as they may not necessarily offer the
kind of information a cyclist wants. I didn't take the thought any
further, like why they wouldn't be useful to cyclists, I was more
wondering whether anyone had ever asked cyclists what kind of map they
would like.

I suggest they aren't necessarily drawn up for car users - they are drawn
up for road users, many of which use a car to get from A to B. This
doesn't mean they are of no use for other road users. I use OS maps and
OS based maps to work out routes irrespective of whether I'm travelling
by car, cycle or walking. I think you'll find that many a cyclist on this
newsgroup is not enamoured of supposedly 'cycle-specific' routes, paths,
etc., as they are often the last routes an experienced cyclist will take.
Why? All too often in the UK such cycle-specific routes are not conducive
to enjoyable cycling.

Fair point.

Quoted message said:

Cheers, helen s

Quoted message said:

My pennys worth

Mk

Danny Colyer said:

Different cyclists have very different requirements. And actually
churches make very useful landmarks for navigation.

Tell that to the group who were supposed to take the 1st L SP By-Road after
Isolated Church on R in the early hours of Sunday morning ;-)

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Flies are the work of Stan, and should be killed by all means available.

Danny Colyer said:

Different cyclists have very different requirements. And actually
churches make very useful landmarks for navigation.

Tell that to the group who were supposed to take the 1st L SP By-Road after
Isolated Church on R in the early hours of Sunday morning ;-)

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Flies are the work of Stan, and should be killed by all means available.

David Martin said:

IME there is nothing too steep to get up on a 24" gear.

Oh, I don't know. When it gets near to vertical you may need to change
up to the 32" gear (aka two hands and two feet ;-) )

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

David Martin said:

IME there is nothing too steep to get up on a 24" gear.

Oh, I don't know. When it gets near to vertical you may need to change
up to the 32" gear (aka two hands and two feet ;-) )

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

wafflycat said:

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would
highlight areas in desperate need of development in order to attract
leisure cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which
roads can be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads
not on OS maps for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

There is the major flaw in your plan. By omitting roads *you* think are
too busy/too steep/etc., etc., you are effectively saying swathes of the
UK are unavailable for cycling, thus putting off people from cycling.
You defeat the very purpose you have in mind - to help people to cycle.

OK, you've convinced me. By drawing a static map, you have effectively
decided all the paramaters using an national average, which is not the
best approach (although they do that for Ski routes on the continent
with relative success).

So the reason a national cycle-oriented map has never been attempted is
because there are too many assumptions you would need to make about what
the average cyclist wants. Which means the information is useless to
probably 95% of cyclists.

If you wanted to draw a cycle route map, the cyclist would have to be
able to specify his/her needs/requirements.

Off topic for one sentence, then i'm back. There is a dummy internet
shop at this address http://www.macromedia.com/go/flexapp_store. Notice
the price range slider at the bottom left. And as you drag it, the
store contents changes. Anyway, back on topic, a cyclist road map would
have to offer the same flexibility as the price slider on that dummy
shop. So a cyclist could choose his/her requirements from a slider
dashboard, and watch as the UK cycle map is redrawn accordingly, with
routes faded in and out in a similar fashion to the example website. Do
you think that kind of solution might work?

Mk

wafflycat said:

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would
highlight areas in desperate need of development in order to attract
leisure cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which
roads can be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads
not on OS maps for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

There is the major flaw in your plan. By omitting roads *you* think are
too busy/too steep/etc., etc., you are effectively saying swathes of the
UK are unavailable for cycling, thus putting off people from cycling.
You defeat the very purpose you have in mind - to help people to cycle.

OK, you've convinced me. By drawing a static map, you have effectively
decided all the paramaters using an national average, which is not the
best approach (although they do that for Ski routes on the continent
with relative success).

So the reason a national cycle-oriented map has never been attempted is
because there are too many assumptions you would need to make about what
the average cyclist wants. Which means the information is useless to
probably 95% of cyclists.

If you wanted to draw a cycle route map, the cyclist would have to be
able to specify his/her needs/requirements.

Off topic for one sentence, then i'm back. There is a dummy internet
shop at this address http://www.macromedia.com/go/flexapp_store. Notice
the price range slider at the bottom left. And as you drag it, the
store contents changes. Anyway, back on topic, a cyclist road map would
have to offer the same flexibility as the price slider on that dummy
shop. So a cyclist could choose his/her requirements from a slider
dashboard, and watch as the UK cycle map is redrawn accordingly, with
routes faded in and out in a similar fashion to the example website. Do
you think that kind of solution might work?

Mk

wafflycat said:

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Those parts of the UK with roads too busy for anything but hardcore
cyclists or too steep would be negated from the map. This would
highlight areas in desperate need of development in order to attract
leisure cyclists. I'm not saying any map would enforce rules in which
roads can be used, it would purely be a guide. There are many roads
not on OS maps for example, it doesn't mean you can't use them.

There is the major flaw in your plan. By omitting roads *you* think are
too busy/too steep/etc., etc., you are effectively saying swathes of the
UK are unavailable for cycling, thus putting off people from cycling.
You defeat the very purpose you have in mind - to help people to cycle.

OK, you've convinced me. By drawing a static map, you have effectively
decided all the paramaters using an national average, which is not the
best approach (although they do that for Ski routes on the continent
with relative success).

So the reason a national cycle-oriented map has never been attempted is
because there are too many assumptions you would need to make about what
the average cyclist wants. Which means the information is useless to
probably 95% of cyclists.

If you wanted to draw a cycle route map, the cyclist would have to be
able to specify his/her needs/requirements.

Off topic for one sentence, then i'm back. There is a dummy internet
shop at this address http://www.macromedia.com/go/flexapp_store. Notice
the price range slider at the bottom left. And as you drag it, the
store contents changes. Anyway, back on topic, a cyclist road map would
have to offer the same flexibility as the price slider on that dummy
shop. So a cyclist could choose his/her requirements from a slider
dashboard, and watch as the UK cycle map is redrawn accordingly, with
routes faded in and out in a similar fashion to the example website. Do
you think that kind of solution might work?

Mk

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Off topic for one sentence, then i'm back. There is a dummy internet shop
at this address http://www.macromedia.com/go/flexapp_store. Notice the
price range slider at the bottom left. And as you drag it, the store
contents changes. Anyway, back on topic, a cyclist road map would have to
offer the same flexibility as the price slider on that dummy shop. So a
cyclist could choose his/her requirements from a slider dashboard, and
watch as the UK cycle map is redrawn accordingly, with routes faded in and
out in a similar fashion to the example website. Do you think that kind
of solution might work?

Mk

Personally I find looking at an OS map hugely useful, as it has contours on
it, I can decide where to avoid and it clearly shows what are *likely* to be
busy roads, so I can choose to avoid them. I think you have a need which
already has a solution :-)

Cheers, helen s

"Mk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Off topic for one sentence, then i'm back. There is a dummy internet shop
at this address http://www.macromedia.com/go/flexapp_store. Notice the
price range slider at the bottom left. And as you drag it, the store
contents changes. Anyway, back on topic, a cyclist road map would have to
offer the same flexibility as the price slider on that dummy shop. So a
cyclist could choose his/her requirements from a slider dashboard, and
watch as the UK cycle map is redrawn accordingly, with routes faded in and
out in a similar fashion to the example website. Do you think that kind
of solution might work?

Mk

Personally I find looking at an OS map hugely useful, as it has contours on
it, I can decide where to avoid and it clearly shows what are *likely* to be
busy roads, so I can choose to avoid them. I think you have a need which
already has a solution :-)

Cheers, helen s