seeking gearhead advice

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

Quoted message said:

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

If you are happy with the corncob on the back, then you other choice would be to replace the 30T
with a 26T or 28T on the front. The 22T capacity XTR will handle a 26T capacity without grumbling
too much. Except for hills you probably spend most of your time in the 42T so you will not notice
much difference until you start climbing and need the lower 'granny'
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

The straightforward thing to try is a granny gear front inner chainring of 26 or so. The two
requirements to get this to work are having a long enough cage on the front Der. and a long arm on
the rear Der. If you have the short arm rear XTR Der. it won't be able to handle the chain wrap
difference of (52-26)+(23-11)=38 (its max is 33T), and you'll have to switch to a long cage -
expensive. Even so this won't get you much, as your new lower gear will still only be a 27. So I
would suggest going to a 11-26 cassette with a 26 front inner chainring, which would give you a
24" low gear.

A front 24" inner chainring would work great also, if you can find one and if your front Der. can
handle it. With a 11-26 rear this would give you a 25 for a low.

Steve Christensen

I've seen a number of people that replaced thier inner rings with a 26 tooth ring on standard road
components. This should lower you low gear pretty nicely. Also a 12-27 cassette would increase the
low range with a slight loss in fine control. Craig

[email hidden] (Robert Stevahn) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

Thanks in advance,

-- Robert

Cletus Lee said:

If you are happy with the corncob on the back, then you other choice would be to replace the 30T
with a 26T or 28T on the front. The 22T capacity XTR will handle a 26T capacity without grumbling
too much. Except for hills you probably spend most of your time in the 42T so you will not notice
much difference until you start climbing and need the lower 'granny'

I'm using STI shifters, so I think that means I have to stay with the Ultegra 22T derailer(?). Will
it also handle 26T? And then I'm also looking at a new crankset. Recommendations?

On the one hand, this shouldn't be so complicated and I know people grumble about Shimano's lack of
flexibility. On the other hand the Ultegra package sure does work smoothly in practice.

-- Robert

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm using STI shifters, so I think that means I have to stay with the Ultegra 22T derailer(?).
Will it also handle 26T? And then I'm also looking at a new crankset. Recommendations?

Shifters have nothing to do with the equation. They are designed to move the derailleur one chain
ring to the left or right. The derailleur cage has a bottom guide. If your granny is too small, the
chain will drag the bottom of the derailleur cage. This is the true capacity of the cage. 22T is the
rating that Shimano gives the triple (all their triples) so in theory if your largest chainring is
52T, then a derailleur rated for 22T would limit the smallest chainring to 30T In practice as long
as the chain does not drag the bottom of the cage, you can use a 26T or a 28T granny will little
difference in shifting performance.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee said:

Shifters have nothing to do with the equation.

That's nice to hear. I had read somewhere that STI shifters required compatible derailers. Ah, here
it is from Peter White Cycles: "If you are using STI, you'll need to use a Shimano derailleur
specifically designed for STI."

peterwhitecycles.comchainrings.aspOpen ↗

Misinformation?

-- Robert

As long as we're on the subject of front derailers (more or less), what front derailer has the
largest capacity? I'm considering trying a quad chainring, and I'm wondering how wide a range I can
get without resorting to building my own front derailer cage.

I'm already running an 11-34 cassette, with 34-48-62 chainrings, and in the mountains (where I do
most of my riding), I regularly run out of gears at BOTH ends of the range.

Bruce Jamieson

cbb said:

I've seen a number of people that replaced thier inner rings with a 26 tooth ring on standard road
components. This should lower you low gear pretty nicely. Also a 12-27 cassette would increase the
low range with a slight loss in fine control. Craig

[email hidden] (Robert Stevahn) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

Thanks in advance,

-- Robert

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee said:

Shifters have nothing to do with the equation.

That's nice to hear. I had read somewhere that STI shifters required compatible derailers. Ah,
here it is from Peter White Cycles: "If you are using STI, you'll need to use a Shimano derailleur
specifically designed for STI."

peterwhitecycles.comchainrings.aspOpen ↗

Misinformation?

Good information but does not apply. Your derailleur needs to move up or down one chain ring for
each shift. The shifter moves the cable on one end. The derailleur needs to move an amount that
corresponds to the distance to the next chainring. The 'hinge' on the front derailleur translates
that cable distance into the proper distance to shift between chainrings. A different Derailleur
will move more or less distance for that same cable pull.

--
Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email hidden]>, Cletus says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee said:

Shifters have nothing to do with the equation.

That's nice to hear. I had read somewhere that STI shifters required compatible derailers. Ah,
here it is from Peter White Cycles: "If you are using STI, you'll need to use a Shimano
derailleur specifically designed for STI."

peterwhitecycles.comchainrings.aspOpen ↗

Misinformation?

Good information but does not apply. Your derailleur needs to move up or down one chain ring for
each shift. The shifter moves the cable on one end. The derailleur needs to move an amount that
corresponds to the distance to the next chainring. The 'hinge' on the front derailleur translates
that cable distance into the proper distance to shift between chainrings. A different Derailleur
will move more or less distance for that same cable pull.

Perhaps someone can comment on this with more authority, but my impression is that you DO have to
stick with either a road or MTB group with Shimano components, as the shifters are not
intercompatable. Meaning, for example, that you could not switch to rapid fire style shifters if you
are using a Ultegra FD.

Steve Christensen

[email hidden] (Robert Stevahn) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

First, I think if you actually measure your wheels, they are about
22.5 inches in diameter, not 24 inches. That'll yield a gear range of 29-106, not 31-113. My V-Rex
has a 24" drive wheel, and I am running a
22/1/56 crankset and an 11-30 cassette.

An Ultegra front derailleur should be able to handle at least 24T and more likely 26T difference, so
you could conceivably go down to a 26T inner chainring. That would give you a 25 inch low - not
terribly low but enough to climb most grades.

If that's not low enough, I'd recommend getting a 12-27 Ultegra or Dura Ace cassette, then remove
the 14T cog, move the 12T and 13T over and put an 11T on the outside. You may need to replace the
lockring, too, as the one for the 12T might be too big to use with the 11T - use the one off your
current cassette. That will give you 11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-27. You will still have close gears on
top and combined with the 26T chainring you would get a 21 inch low gear. (You could do the same
thing with an Ultegra/Dura Ace 12-25 cassette, which would yield a 23.4 inch low.)

How's that for 'gearhead?' :-)

Steve Christensen said:

Perhaps someone can comment on this with more authority, but my impression is that you DO have to
stick with either a road or MTB group with Shimano components, as the shifters are not
intercompatable. Meaning, for example, that you could not switch to rapid fire style shifters if
you are using a Ultegra FD.

That is correct. Shimano /do/ make a front derailleur - RD-440 IIRC - which is designed to work with
Rabidfire shifters *and* "road" size chainrings - big ring of the order of 50-54 teeth. However, if
you use a non-index front shifter - such as Gripshifts or barcons, then you're fine. I have an
Ultegra on the Baron and a 105 on the Speedmachine, both operated by SRAM twist-grips.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

As long as we're on the subject of front derailers (more or less), what front derailer has the
largest capacity? I'm considering trying a quad chainring, and I'm wondering how wide a range I
can get without resorting to building my own front derailer cage.

I'm already running an 11-34 cassette, with 34-48-62 chainrings, and in the mountains (where I do
most of my riding), I regularly run out of gears at BOTH ends of the range.

AFAIK no triple derailleur is rated for more than 22T As I and others have noted, you can exceed
that 22T by about 4 more teeth. In your set-up you are probably passed the limit at
28T. Since I do not have a drive tire size, I can only guess at the gear inch range for your bike.
You should find a range of 18-120 g.i. adequate for just about anything you would

time to learn to spin faster on both ends.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Cletus says...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Misinformation?

Good information but does not apply. Your derailleur needs to move up or down one chain ring for
each shift. The shifter moves the cable on one end. The derailleur needs to move an amount that
corresponds to the distance to the next chainring. The 'hinge' on the front derailleur translates
that cable distance into the proper distance to shift between chainrings. A different Derailleur
will move more or less distance for that same cable pull.

Perhaps someone can comment on this with more authority, but my impression is that you DO have to
stick with either a road or MTB group with Shimano components, as the shifters are not
intercompatable. Meaning, for example, that you could not switch to rapid fire style shifters if
you are using a Ultegra FD.

I hoped that I was clear. Shifters and Derailleurs have to be compatible. This is why SRAM has a
separate line of Shimano compatible shifters. (Those with names not numbers)
sram.comcompatible shifters.pdfOpen ↗

Compatible Shifters and Derailleurs have nothing to do with the number of teeth on a chainring.
--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

(John Foltz) said:

How's that for 'gearhead?' :-)

I really like the sound of what you propose. It's similar to a verbal suggestion I got from my
mechanic (who I'll be seeing in about a week to plan this a little more). Thanks for writing.

-- Robert

(John Foltz) said:

An Ultegra front derailleur should be able to handle at least 24T and more likely 26T difference,
so you could conceivably go down to a 26T inner chainring.

Will the Ultegra crankset accept a standard 74mm inner ring, or am I going to need a new crankset?

Thanks in advance,

-- Robert

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee said:

I hoped that I was clear. Shifters and Derailleurs have to be compatible.

Now we're getting somewhere. I think the confusion stems from your suggestion of the 22T XTR
rather than the 22T Ultegra:

Quoted message said:

The 22T capacity XTR will handle a 26T capacity without grumbling too much.

I picked the 'XTR' up from your original post. In looking back, I see that that refered to the rear
deraileur. Sorry for the confusion.

My P-38 has an Ultegra triple in front and XTR rear. I run 52-42-26 on the front. I use it with
Dura-Ace Bar-End Shifters - SL-BS77. They work just fine. Of course the front Derailleur is not
indexed and this does not present a problem.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

I believe the Shaimano Road and MTB shifters and derailers are interchangeable and the derailers
also work with SRAM Rocket shifters. I currently have Shaimano 105 derailers shifted by SRAM Rocket
shifters (originally designed to work with Shaimano MTB groups). I'm not as confident about the
front derailer but an XT rear derailer should work with STI and give you a larger chain wrap.
However I don't think it is necessary as I just saw a note that Zach was using Shaimano Ultrega
derailers with a 26-39-52 and 12-26. With such an arrangement you may need to avoid the extreme gear
combinations as it will put the derailer at it limit but it should work. Craig

Steve Christensen <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

The straightforward thing to try is a granny gear front inner chainring of 26 or so. The two
requirements to get this to work are having a long enough cage on the front Der. and a long arm on
the rear Der. If you have the short arm rear XTR Der. it won't be able to handle the chain wrap
difference of (52-26)+(23-11)=38 (its max is 33T), and you'll have to switch to a long cage -
expensive. Even so this won't get you much, as your new lower gear will still only be a 27. So I
would suggest going to a 11-26 cassette with a 26 front inner chainring, which would give you a
24" low gear.

A front 24" inner chainring would work great also, if you can find one and if your front Der. can
handle it. With a 11-26 rear this would give you a 25 for a low.

Steve Christensen

I take it you have a 20" drive wheel? Don't know the answer to your question but you are probably
pushing the limit of both the front and rear derailers. A simplier way to get huge gear ranges
would be to use a Schumpf Mountain or High-Speed Drive. Or a little cheaper but not as effictive a
SRAM Dual-Drive. Either one adds a third gear multiplier which increases your range considerably.
The Schumpf Drives have a 250% gear range. Ofcourse you pay in price weight and drive train
efficiency. Craig

bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As long as we're on the subject of front derailers (more or less), what front derailer has the
largest capacity? I'm considering trying a quad chainring, and I'm wondering how wide a range I
can get without resorting to building my own front derailer cage.

I'm already running an 11-34 cassette, with 34-48-62 chainrings, and in the mountains (where I do
most of my riding), I regularly run out of gears at BOTH ends of the range.

Bruce Jamieson

cbb said:

I've seen a number of people that replaced thier inner rings with a 26 tooth ring on standard
road components. This should lower you low gear pretty nicely. Also a 12-27 cassette would
increase the low range with a slight loss in fine control. Craig

[email hidden] (Robert Stevahn) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I ride a Vision Saber with the 24" wheels.

Here's what I have now:

52-42-30 front (all Ultegra) 11-23 9 speed rear (XTR derailer)

With my 24" wheels, that gives me a range of 31-113 gear inches.

I'm very happy with the 11-23 cassette. Nice fine control.

I'm pretty happy with the 113" high gear. I don't want it any smaller if I can help it.

I'm not happy with the 31" low gear. I want something smaller for the steeper hills.

What are my best options? What are the trade-offs?

Thanks in advance,

-- Robert

bruce <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

As long as we're on the subject of front derailers (more or less), what front derailer has the
largest capacity? I'm considering trying a quad chainring, and I'm wondering how wide a range I
can get without resorting to building my own front derailer cage.

I'm already running an 11-34 cassette, with 34-48-62 chainrings, and in the mountains (where I do
most of my riding), I regularly run out of gears at BOTH ends of the range.

Bruce Jamieson

For a time, Zach Kaplan was offering modified front derailleurs that would shift 24 to 60+ tooth
chainrings. I don't know if he has them any more.

Jeff