Leg speed

Steve B. said:

Look at Armstrongs leg speed.

Seems nobody's learned the basics, except Lance

SB

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O5AC26A6B

Or:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/17d07b3c7877a3a8/a176aa36b705b279?q=increased+hematocrit+for+Tour+riders+these+days,+compared+to+old#a176aa36b705b279

There is a certain lack of understanding here. Lance isn't using
smaller gears - he's spinning because he's going REALLY FAST.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message ..

Quoted message said:

There is a certain lack of understanding here. Lance isn't using
smaller gears - he's spinning because he's going REALLY FAST.

No, actually, for a good bit, you could see how his legs were spinning at a
higher cadence as compared to Basso, Ullrich and others, all of whom were in
the same group, moving at the same speed.

It looked like only Rasmussens legs were moving at the same cadence.

SB

Lance has a 23 tooth big cog like everyone else. The thing is that
everyone else is riding their 21's and Lance is spinning away on the
23. If you look at the closeups in the World Cycling Videos you can see
he isn't mounting lower gears, he's just using them and others aren't
spinning like him because he's going faster on his attacks.

Steve B. said:

Look at Armstrongs leg speed.

Seems nobody's learned the basics, except Lance

SB

Yeah, that's it, nobody else thought of a high cadence except
Armstrong. :-/

It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less power but is more demanding
overall. Try it and look at your heart rate over the same
time/distance.

D

David Ferguson said:

Steve B. said:

Look at Armstrongs leg speed.

Seems nobody's learned the basics, except Lance

SB

Yeah, that's it, nobody else thought of a high cadence except
Armstrong. :-/

It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less power but is more demanding
overall. Try it and look at your heart rate over the same
time/distance.

D

If LANCE hadn't beat cancer we'd all be climbing in the saddle in a
huge gear and getting fat on brats in the off-season.

MT

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Lance has a 23 tooth big cog like everyone else. The thing is that
everyone else is riding their 21's and Lance is spinning away on the
23.

Hmmm... so what your saying is that Lance is spinning faster in his 23,
while everyone else is in a 21. While they're all going the same speed.
Which is what my original comment pointed out, and which was an observation
of the race at a point prior to his attack, as I observed Ullrich, Basso, et
all. struggling behind him.

I just find it interesting to see the difference in riding techniques,
Lance's leg speed, etc... which have been noted on prior Tours, and that few
seemed to have followed his example (Rasmusson being an exception).

SB

David Ferguson said:

It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less power but is more demanding
overall. Try it and look at your heart rate over the same
time/distance.

D

I think what you meant was that it takes less *force* on the pedals,
but that your heart rate would probably be a little bit higher... which
means it is less efficient in terms power output divided by power used
by the body.

The thing is, cyclists (racers) pedal at an inefficient cadence almost
all the time... because they don't care about efficiency... they want
to go FAST! Higher cadences (up to a point) tend to allow the leg
muscles to work harder before they become fatigued. So, your heart rate
might be higher with a fast cadence at a constant speed, but your AT
heart rate is also higher... so you can go faster.

Everyones optimum cadence will be different, and it will also vary
depending on the steepness and duration of the climb.

The same reasoning applies to seated and standing climbing. The heart
rate is higher when standing, but some riders can actually go faster
while standing... even over a long distance.

I DO think that Lance may be onto something with his high climbing
cadence... he seems to have trained himself to climb that way, and
found it to be optimal...but it wouldn't necessarily be best for others.

So when PANTS is riding the same speed as (or faster than) everyone
else, and in a lower gear than they are using, he isn't actually
pedalling faster than everyone else. Got it.

Did anyone notice if Discovery had their cranks in phase today?

-RJ

On 12 Jul 2005 14:08:49 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less power but is more demanding
overall. Try it and look at your heart rate over the same
time/distance.

D

I think what you meant was that it takes less *force* on the pedals,
but that your heart rate would probably be a little bit higher... which
means it is less efficient in terms power output divided by power used
by the body.

The thing is, cyclists (racers) pedal at an inefficient cadence almost
all the time... because they don't care about efficiency... they want
to go FAST! Higher cadences (up to a point) tend to allow the leg
muscles to work harder before they become fatigued. So, your heart rate
might be higher with a fast cadence at a constant speed, but your AT
heart rate is also higher... so you can go faster.

Everyones optimum cadence will be different, and it will also vary
depending on the steepness and duration of the climb.

The same reasoning applies to seated and standing climbing. The heart
rate is higher when standing, but some riders can actually go faster
while standing... even over a long distance.

I DO think that Lance may be onto something with his high climbing
cadence... he seems to have trained himself to climb that way, and
found it to be optimal...but it wouldn't necessarily be best for others.

Or you could just say "It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less
power but is more demanding overall."

;-)

But thanks for the more detailed explanation!

There was something about his cadence. Chris Carmichael realized that
LA has xtraordinary cardiovascular capacity and endurance so they
decided to take advantage of that plus they borrowed pedaling technique
from mtbcycling because of its high efficiency

On 12 Jul 2005 15:29:18 -0700, "danko" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There was something about his cadence. Chris Carmichael realized that
LA has xtraordinary cardiovascular capacity and endurance so they
decided to take advantage of that plus they borrowed pedaling technique
from mtbcycling because of its high efficiency

Right, it's all about maximizing based on the rider's strengths.

All of these long distance cyclists (sprinters, climbers, etc..) are
endurance atheletes. "Dark meat" if you will. So a high cadence is
more correct than just mashing away. But finding the right balance is
what it takes.

The thing for Armstrong is that he's just better than the other guy.
So it makes his way look right. I think Jan probably turns too big but
I doubt my opinion measures up against the amount of testing they've
done on him. We're talking Germany, after all.

D

David Ferguson said:

Or you could just say "It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less
power but is more demanding overall."

;-)

But thanks for the more detailed explanation!

Actually I thought I was saying the opposite; that spinning takes MORE
power by your body (since it is less efficient powerwise), but is LESS
demanding overall (faster)... at least for LA and others who can make
good use of it.

And... it's not for everyone...

"Steve B." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Look at Armstrongs leg speed.

Seems nobody's learned the basics, except Lance

SB

This is silly. Different riders have different strengths. High cadence
isn't the simple answer..even if Phil, Paul, Bob, and Al tell you it is.

On 12 Jul 2005 17:26:01 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Ferguson said:

Or you could just say "It's not for everyone. Spinning takes less
power but is more demanding overall."

;-)

But thanks for the more detailed explanation!

Actually I thought I was saying the opposite; that spinning takes MORE
power by your body (since it is less efficient powerwise), but is LESS
demanding overall (faster)... at least for LA and others who can make
good use of it.

And... it's not for everyone...

Spinning takes more energy and endurance. A lower cadence takes more
power but less overall energy and endurance because it is more
"economical".

These guys have much more endurance than power, as a factor of the
developement of their slow twitch fibers. Fast twitch fibers have
greater power but much less endurance. So that's why, generally, a
higher cadence is good for everyone. But how high is different for
everyone.

If you put someone who isn't fit on a bicycle they will prefer a low
cadence because they don't have endurance. But if you put someone who
is fit, but not a cyclist(such as a long distance runner), on a
bicycle they will prefer a high cadence. One higher than their most
efficient level. Because of the slow twitch fibers and endurance.
At least according to Marsh and Martin, 1993, Arizona State U.

D

On 12 Jul 2005 15:29:18 -0700, "danko" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There was something about his cadence. Chris Carmichael realized that
LA has xtraordinary cardiovascular capacity and endurance so they
decided to take advantage of that plus they borrowed pedaling technique
from mtbcycling because of its high efficiency

Theoretically, the fast cadence used by Lance uses less power and
therefore involves less fast twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch muscle
fibers are aerobically less efficient than slow twitch fibers and
build up more lactic acid. I assume that a rider like Jan with his
big gear and powerful legs is using a lot more fast twitch fibers than
Lance.

There's a threshold principle when it comes to recruiting muscle
fibers. Light activity will recruit slow fibers. As more demand is
made on the muscle the fast fibers are recruited. In endurance
events, the fewer fast fibers recruited the better. That's why the
high cadence is more efficient aerobically. Or so the theory goes.

"Jack Hollis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Theoretically, the fast cadence used by Lance uses less power and
therefore involves less fast twitch muscle fibers. Fast twitch muscle
fibers are aerobically less efficient than slow twitch fibers and
build up more lactic acid. I assume that a rider like Jan with his
big gear and powerful legs is using a lot more fast twitch fibers than
Lance.

There's a threshold principle when it comes to recruiting muscle
fibers. Light activity will recruit slow fibers. As more demand is
made on the muscle the fast fibers are recruited. In endurance
events, the fewer fast fibers recruited the better. That's why the
high cadence is more efficient aerobically. Or so the theory goes.

1) There is more to fiber type/motor unit recruitment than just force -
thus, you can't assume that pedaling faster will necessarily reduce
recruitment of fast twitch motor units.

2) faster cadences are actually *less* efficient, not more so as you state.

Andy Coggan

I think that you missed the point. Lance hasn't been installing lower
gears on his bike, he's only using the same gears that everyone else
has. The main reason that he is spinning 'faster' is because he is
going faster and not because his gears are lower. Anyone else out there
with him COULD change down to that gear as well but they can't spin.

Andy Coggan said:

Quoted message said:

2) faster cadences are actually *less* efficient, not more so as you state.

What do you mean when you use the word "efficiency?"