Lance all alone

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

--
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"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

But he finished a minute and a half behind Hincapie and Popovych. Which
means that he either seriously lost time on the final part of the climb or
didn't ride a good descent. Both seem rather unlikely, since his climbing is
quite calculated, and we all know about his descending skills. Perhaps if
someone saved himself somewhat, I say it would be Savoldelli. Perhaps he
just let it all go once he noticed he couldn't stay with Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

--
Firefox Browser - Rediscover the web - http://getffox.com/
Thunderbird E-mail and Newsgroups - http://gettbird.com/

Michael Thomas said:

Armstrong finally attacked in the mountains. His teammates had better
feel better tomorrow or Lance could be in trouble. T-mobile looked
strong. Ullrich looks to be ready for the mountains.

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

Ewoud Dronkert said:

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of >possibility.

I'm hoping the "false possibility" doesn't mean we won't see five or
more hopefuls going for it, "best man wins".

IOW, one could be a Lance fan (freely admitted) but also a fan of bike
racing since before the arrival of Lance Who Could Climb (and win the
TdF over and over).

Ya gotta go back to Stage I, however... reality check (testing testing
is this thing on?) --TP

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Armstrong is very good on tactics, but a master of psychological warfare.

Mark

Mark Janeba said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Armstrong is very good on tactics, but a master of psychological warfare.

Mark

Yeah, that's what I would do. Give T-Mobile a real sense of
possibility. Make them work really hard and start multiple attacks
over the next mountain stages.

That would be a great strategy.

D

Mark Janeba said:

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Armstrong is very good on tactics, but a master of psychological warfare.

Mark

If the stage told us something, it was not so much about LA, it was
about his team. But do you really think they'd tell the whole team to
leave their leader alone for psychological warfare?

Ernst Noch said:

Mark Janeba said:

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and
Armstrong didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't
gain much time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks?
Armstrong's rivals have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding
his time, and that the domination could begin at any moment.

Armstrong is very good on tactics, but a master of psychological warfare.

Mark

If the stage told us something, it was not so much about LA, it was
about his team. But do you really think they'd tell the whole team to
leave their leader alone for psychological warfare?

I agree Armstrong and Discovery didn't look so good TODAY. My point is
that his HISTORY of playing possum in past tours leaves that little bit
of doubt in the rival's minds.

If Armstrong had a history of displaying his condition on his face, a
day like today would give the rivals a BIG boost of confidence. Some
RBR wags would already be saying "It's all over for LA." As it is, all
we hear about are "some signs of weakness," and the doubt remains in the
rivals' minds.

Mark

Mark Janeba said:

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Kloden lost 2 minutes to Armstrong in the opening TT which was only 19
km. There's a 55 km TT still to come. He's not giving up time
willingly, but it's far from panic time.

R

On 9 Jul 2005 10:16:49 -0700, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Janeba said:

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Kloden lost 2 minutes to Armstrong in the opening TT which was only 19
km. There's a 55 km TT still to come. He's not giving up time
willingly, but it's far from panic time.

R

What works against TMO is that when one of their guys goes ahead like
that the others can't really attack unless Armstrong has cracked. So
they get 20 seconds for one guy here, 30 seconds for another guy
there,....... They are splitting the time 3 ways when its ONE guy who
needs that time.

It's not an ideal situation for Armstrong but it would be worse if
they were all on different teams. (Unless, TMO can focus and get one
guy way ahead each time).

D

Quoted message said:

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

Or you've got it reversed; I was thinking it was Kloden who might have been
comfortable with people feeling he entered the race weak & unlikely to
matter in the GC.

In just one day you go from Discovery being concerned about primarily just
one rider (Vino) to having a bit of heat put on and seeing that A: Jan
didn't take a flyer off the back and looked pretty comfortable, B: Kloden
can't be written off, C: Attacks might come from all over, in a nightmarish
repeat of the Alpe d'Huez from a couple years ago.

Perhaps it was the relative mildness of the hill that caused Discovery to
not put many resources into showing a face at the front... why waste too
many legs on what became a high-speed ascent for many of the contenders, in
which is was unlikely that any one person was going to get away with a
significant time gain?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mark Janeba" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

Armstrong's investment on the 2001 Alpe d'Huez stage again pays off.
Remembering that faked bad day, nobody is sure what to make of it when
Armstrong doesn't dominate. Is he weak or is he just calculating?

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Armstrong is very good on tactics, but a master of psychological warfare.

Mark

"David Ferguson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 9 Jul 2005 10:16:49 -0700, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Janeba said:

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Kloden lost 2 minutes to Armstrong in the opening TT which was only 19
km. There's a 55 km TT still to come. He's not giving up time
willingly, but it's far from panic time.

R

What works against TMO is that when one of their guys goes ahead like
that the others can't really attack unless Armstrong has cracked. So
they get 20 seconds for one guy here, 30 seconds for another guy
there,....... They are splitting the time 3 ways when its ONE guy who
needs that time.

It's not an ideal situation for Armstrong but it would be worse if
they were all on different teams. (Unless, TMO can focus and get one
guy way ahead each time).

D

The idea is to attack Armstrong until he can't follow any more attacks. At
that point T-Mobile hopes for Ullrich or Vino to get away for major time.
If Valverde's team mates and CSC start doing the same, it could be very
difficult for Discovery to cope, regardless of what today's isolation of
Armstrong may or may not mean in the high mountains to come. Bernard
Hinault must be one happy fella.

David Ferguson said:

On 9 Jul 2005 10:16:49 -0700, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Janeba said:

When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
domination could begin at any moment.

Kloden lost 2 minutes to Armstrong in the opening TT which was only 19
km. There's a 55 km TT still to come. He's not giving up time
willingly, but it's far from panic time.

R

What works against TMO is that when one of their guys goes ahead like
that the others can't really attack unless Armstrong has cracked. So
they get 20 seconds for one guy here, 30 seconds for another guy
there,....... They are splitting the time 3 ways when its ONE guy who
needs that time.

It's not an ideal situation for Armstrong but it would be worse if
they were all on different teams. (Unless, TMO can focus and get one
guy way ahead each time).

???
Your scenario, would be a disadvantage for the three teams, not for
Armstrong - each team would have to attack and possibly tow LA up the
mountain.
The advantage TMO has in this scenario is that they can decide whether
the second rider attacks or not.
And you saw today what can happen. One rider goes up, and the others
just test with short accelerations if LA can follow or not, if he can,
they stop, if not, they are away.
Did you notice how often Vino looked back when attacking? And JU did the
same at one point.

I smell a Bruyneel head fake.

I don't have OLN but if Landis really bridged back up to the Armstrong
group is reported in Cyclingnews and there was NOBODY from Discovery
that could come up with him at that critical point, that just reeks of
the whole team playing possum to me.

It's all about getting TMO to squander support resources at this
point.....

Ernst Noch said:

David Ferguson said:

On 9 Jul 2005 10:16:49 -0700, "RicodJour" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Mark Janeba wrote:

>When Kloden went away today, at first it looked serious - and Armstrong
>didn't respond. Was he (correctly) figuring Kloden couldn't gain much
>time, or was he tired from covering Vino's attacks? Armstrong's rivals
>have to deal with the doubt that he's just biding his time, and that the
>domination could begin at any moment.

Kloden lost 2 minutes to Armstrong in the opening TT which was only 19
km. There's a 55 km TT still to come. He's not giving up time
willingly, but it's far from panic time.

R

What works against TMO is that when one of their guys goes ahead like
that the others can't really attack unless Armstrong has cracked. So
they get 20 seconds for one guy here, 30 seconds for another guy
there,....... They are splitting the time 3 ways when its ONE guy who
needs that time.

It's not an ideal situation for Armstrong but it would be worse if
they were all on different teams. (Unless, TMO can focus and get one
guy way ahead each time).

???
Your scenario, would be a disadvantage for the three teams, not for
Armstrong - each team would have to attack and possibly tow LA up the
mountain.
The advantage TMO has in this scenario is that they can decide whether
the second rider attacks or not.
And you saw today what can happen. One rider goes up, and the others
just test with short accelerations if LA can follow or not, if he can,
they stop, if not, they are away.
Did you notice how often Vino looked back when attacking? And JU did the
same at one point.

in 470155 20050709 202855 said:

I smell a Bruyneel head fake.

I don't have OLN but if Landis really bridged back up to the Armstrong
group is reported in Cyclingnews and there was NOBODY from Discovery
that could come up with him at that critical point, that just reeks of
the whole team playing possum to me.

It's all about getting TMO to squander support resources at this
point.....

You are unreal!
How come Armstrong and Bruyneel didn't run for Pope?

Mark Janeba said:

I agree Armstrong and Discovery didn't look so good TODAY. My point is
that his HISTORY of playing possum in past tours leaves that little bit
of doubt in the rival's minds.

There is no doubt. DSC sucked today. Why do people have so
much trouble believing that?

If LANCE had had a mechanical his exposure would have
guaranteed a significant time loss. NFW was that intentional.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

"Ewoud Dronkert" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Christy Anderson was going on like she knew something about how
Savoldelli' legs were shot from the Giro.

He was still the last DSC rider with Armstrong.

But he finished a minute and a half behind Hincapie and Popovych. Which
means that he either seriously lost time on the final part of the climb or
didn't ride a good descent. Both seem rather unlikely, since his climbing is
quite calculated, and we all know about his descending skills. Perhaps if
someone saved himself somewhat, I say it would be Savoldelli. Perhaps he
just let it all go once he noticed he couldn't stay with Armstrong.

I have to guess this one. He could be blown from the Giro, but my
suspicion is that, having done his turn at the front, he faded to save
his strength for another stage. I'm marginally surprised that DSC
wouldn't want a rider with his potential to stay in GC contention as
long as possible (in case LA has a couple of jours sans, or strictly for
tactical purposes), but since he wasn't going to miss the time cut, if
they had no GC aspirations for Savodelli, there was no point in him
doing anything after his turn on the front that noodling his way into
the laughing bunch and rolling into the finish in a leisurely fashion*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But perhaps it was a tactical decision to save strength for the
Discovery train in the real mountains.

We are all (including T-mobile) lulled into a false sense of possibility.

It's not good for DSC that Kloden got away: he's moved from nowhere in
the GC to somewhere, gaining 39s (and almost getting 47s) in one stage,
and a stage where nothing was particularly expected to happen, either.

I salute T-Mobile for one thing: having all but despaired of beating
Lance, they have resorted to some unconventional, opportunistic tactics.
Having brought 3 semi-reasonable GC contenders to the race, they decided
to scare the [censored] out of Discovery by putting their 3 GC hopefuls on the
attack at the oddest times. At least it's something new!

The only problem is that if all follows the historical precedents, when
we get to the steep mountaintop stages, Discovery will just set a
murderous pace as far up the hill as possible, and then Lance will set
an even more murderous pace to the top, and he will do this at least one
more time than any of his rivals can manage. Such a strategy leaves
little room for response, even from a team with three GC hopefuls.

*keeping in mind, always, that the TdF's pace of leisure would be a
killing pace for most amateur racers.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:48:50 -0000, Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There is no doubt. DSC sucked today. Why do people have so
much trouble believing that?

I've some trouble believing a climber of Azevedo's class would get
dropped on a mild uphill like that.

Michael Thomas said:

Armstrong finally attacked in the mountains. His teammates had better
feel better tomorrow or Lance could be in trouble. T-mobile looked
strong. Ullrich looks to be ready for the mountains.

Tomorrow will be interesting. So will Tuesday's stage 10 considering
it's after a rest day - sometimes that makes the riders flat.

MT

Whenever lance gets isolated, that's when he can get in trouble He
needs his teammates. I remember reading about Bjarne Riis, when he
wanted to win the tour he watched endless tapes of Miguel Indurain. He
realized that what he had to do was somehow isolate him from his
teammates, in the mountains. That's what the other guys have to
realize with Lance. Other tour winners can go it alone- Simoni works
okay alone in the mountains, but lance suffers when isolated. I hope
they strike when the iron is hot!