Cranklength

Sorry to hear that... a sore knee takes a lot of the fun out of riding.

I wouldn't go with a longer crank to help your knee... possibly
shorter, though you shouldn't have a problem with 172.5s. And BTW, you
would lower your seat with longer cranks, not raise it, since the flex
of the knee at the bottom of the stroke is most critical.

You are certainly not pushing big gears at 120 rpm, so that couldn't be
it...

First guess... have you recently changed anything that would affect
your position (shoes, cleats, pedals, seat, etc)? If so, change it back
so that the position is the same as before.

Is it in the front or back or side of your knee? Front of the knee
might indicate that the seat is too low and/or too far forward. If it's
in the back then you could be too high and rearward.

About your Doc... see one who has experience with cyclists if you want
an intelligent answer.

It would help if you could give more info about your riding experience
and habits, and precise nature of the pain.

-Ron (also suffering with a bum left knee)

Any number of things could cause the problem: bike fit and position,
muscle flexibility, previous injuries, etc. I had a problem with my
knee and outside of my thigh recently, saw a doctor who is very
familier with cycling and cyclists, and he found that my iliotibial
band is too tight for my current position on the bike. He altered my
position a bit, and prescribed a variety of streching exercises.
Problem seems to be solved. You might check around with local racers
and see if you can find a doctor who really understands cycling. What
area do you live in?

Good luck!

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Any number of things could cause the problem: bike fit and
position, muscle flexibility, previous injuries, etc. I had
a problem with my knee and outside of my thigh recently,
saw a doctor who is very familier with cycling and
cyclists, and he found that my iliotibial band is too tight
for my current position on the bike. He altered my position
a bit, and prescribed a variety of streching exercises.
Problem seems to be solved. You might check around with
local racers and see if you can find a doctor who really
understands cycling. What area do you live in?

I live south of Boston.

The pain is on the outside of my knee towards the back.
Lateral motion while sitting in my chair can bother it,
now. If I move my thigh while the foot is the floor, it
can cause some minor pain.

I'm using look pedals. I haven't changed their position
or such. I have them back somewhat on the shoes. They
are not in a sprinter position.

I think that I will do some measurements of the bike.

Bill

Quoted message said:

First guess... have you recently changed anything that
would affect your position (shoes, cleats, pedals, seat,
etc)? If so, change it back so that the position is the
same as before.

Is it in the front or back or side of your knee? Front of
the knee might indicate that the seat is too low and/or too
far forward. If it's in the back then you could be too high
and rearward.

I just took some measurements. I'm not the greatest when
it comes to these. I haven't changed my pedals or cleats.
I keep wondering about those speedplays. I see more people
on them at the group ride.

The front of the seat is 46 cm back from the headset. I
think that it is 13.3 cm up from frame.

Should I go back with the seat and up?

This whole thing was working pretty good for me
last year.

bill

William H. O'Hara said:

I'm suffering from some pain in my left knee...
I spin at 120 rpm to produce 20 mph on flat ground. Is 172.5 mm cranks appropriate for me?

Probably.

Quoted message said:

I'm 6'2" on a 60cm frame. If I could clear 175 mm, then should I go with those and a higher seat post?

No. If anything, longer cranks may make your knee pain worse (greater
flex at the top of the stroke). Also, long cranks favor mashers, not
spinners. And If anything, you would LOWER your saddle with a longer
crank.

I'm about your height and ride 172.5mm cranks on one bike and 175mm on
the other. I don't notice much difference, although I slightly favor
the 175s.

I suspect your knee problem is due to something else. Could be saddle
height, cleat placement, or just too many miles too soon.

I guess I can't offer the usual "try spinning more" to a guy who spins
120 rpm!

Art "85 rpm" Harris

William H. O'Hara said:

I'm suffering from some pain in my left
knee right now. I'm not sure of the cause.

I spin at 120 rpm to produce 20 mph on
flat ground. Is 172.5 mm cranks appropriate
for me? I'm 6'2" on a 60cm frame. If I
could clear 175 mm, then should I go
with those and a higher seat post? Would
this be a more efficient way to spin?

My left knee continues to act up on me.
I didn't cycle at all during April. After
60 miles yesterday, two miles today was
a pain. It has felt like all around the
knee, but now it is just towards the outer
side of the left knee. The doctor thinks
that I'm fine. The type of response
that I got from the doctor was not to bicycle.
Obviously, I was not happy with an answer
that I'm fine and not to cycle. It didn't
make sense.

I'm looking for help on this and ops on
cranklength.

thanks
bill

Any bike fit people around where you live? Doubt it's as simple as
2.5mm in crank length.

Quoted message said:

The pain is on the outside of my knee towards the back.
Lateral motion while sitting in my chair can bother it,
now. If I move my thigh while the foot is the floor, it
can cause some minor pain.

I feel a big hamstring tendon in that area. Could it possibly be that,
or is it more in the joint? I'd check to see how your feet are angled
relative to front... straight, heels out, or heels in? Some Look cleats
will rotate laterally, and others don't... get the ones that rotate, if
you don't already. Lateral rotation position is a very individual
thing, and one of the most important relative to the knee joint.

I'd guess that heels out and/or with a saddle a bit high and to the
rear could cause stress in that area. If you do an internet search you
can find many detailed and decent articles on bicycle positioning.

I second the motion to work on stretching (after a ride is the best
time) and massage. Get in there with your fingers and feel around... if
it is a tendon you should be able to isolate it. Then be very gentle
and thorough with stretching and massage. Pay attention to your body
while riding and feel what is actually going on when the pain occurs;
what part of the stroke, what sort of pressure is being applied, etc.

Good luck.

-Ron

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

William H. O'Hara said:

I'm suffering from some pain in my left
knee right now. I'm not sure of the cause.

I spin at 120 rpm to produce 20 mph on
flat ground. Is 172.5 mm cranks appropriate
for me? I'm 6'2" on a 60cm frame. If I
could clear 175 mm, then should I go
with those and a higher seat post? Would
this be a more efficient way to spin?

My left knee continues to act up on me.
I didn't cycle at all during April. After
60 miles yesterday, two miles today was
a pain. It has felt like all around the
knee, but now it is just towards the outer
side of the left knee. The doctor thinks
that I'm fine. The type of response
that I got from the doctor was not to bicycle.
Obviously, I was not happy with an answer
that I'm fine and not to cycle. It didn't
make sense.

I'm looking for help on this and ops on
cranklength.

thanks
bill

Any bike fit people around where you live? Doubt it's as
simple as 2.5mm in crank length.

I was originally just asking to see if the
larger cranks would be more efficient for me.

People on the ride say that I spin too much.
Yet, I am wondering what would happen if I slow
down. I've done less mileage than last year so
far. The pain was really bad the day after
the CRW south shore fitness loop.

As for walking I tend to put my left foot out to
the left a little bit. I'm pretty much straight
afaik and perpendicular when locked into the
pedals. I have the red floating cleats from
Look.

I am dreading a drive to Burlington since I don't
work there, but I might need to see if the Cycle
Loft can review me. I heard that they have a
system based on the Serotta company from NY. I don't
know if there is one closer to me.

I'm going to try to have someone pay attention to
my motion on the next ride, if I make it. So I get
some more input on how my feet are going and my
leg's arc.

bill

I don't know if it is simply overuse.
Does anyone have a recommendation of
starting mileage to use when I start
up the season next year in January?

I put at www.billohara.com/left_knee_N1EY.jpg
a picture of my knee and where I think
the pain hurts.

I did five miles to the library and
felt mild pain while pulling upwards
with the leg. So I probably have
over used it.

Bill

Quoted message said:

I did five miles to the library and
felt mild pain while pulling upwards
with the leg. So I probably have
over used it.

Interesting that it hurts on the upstroke and not the power stroke; a
good sign, really... at least your joint is ok. I'd guess you strained
that tendon, possibly because your hamstrings were too tight and not
warmed up. Also check your position to see if that contributed to it...
a slightly lower seat would probably help, and is an easy thing to try.

If you have a long layoff, I'd say start up with rides that are half as
long as you are used to, at an easy pace, and work your way up
gradually... about 10% per week.

-Ron

Quoted message said:

Interesting that it hurts on the upstroke and not the power
stroke; a good sign, really... at least your joint is ok.
I'd guess you strained that tendon, possibly because your
hamstrings were too tight and not warmed up. Also check

I at first thought that it was the downstroke.
Now, I think it is the upstroke. I'm a mess. 😉

I don't know how I am going to do it, but I guess
that I need at least a few weeks off.

bill

Knee Pain:
First Principle - immediately change to float-type pedals. Speedplay,
Time, et. al.
Second Principle - get the pain off. Knock the pain off with aspirin,
anti-inflamatories like ibuprofin or the doctor prescribed variety.
Third Prinicple - Ice 15 min. ON, 2 hr. OFF ... repeat as necessary for
pain
Fourth Prinicple - high reps aggravate sore knees - drop the cadence
Fifth Principle - nobody knows your knees better than you - figure it
out. Something changed? Solve one problem at a time.

William H. O'Hara said:

As for walking I tend to put my left foot out to the left a little > bit. I'm pretty much straight afaik and perpendicular when locked > into the pedals. I have the red floating cleats from Look.

That could be a problem. Try angling the cleat so that your left foot
points in its natural outward position. Even with red (float) cleats,
there is some pressure when your foot is floating off the neutral
position. If your heel hits the crank, try adjusting the cleat to get
your foot further outboard.

Also, 120 rpm sounds very high for recreational riding. Not necessarily
bad if you have a fluid spin, but you may want to experiment with a
slightly lower cadence and higher gear.

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

Knee Pain:
First Principle - immediately change to float-type pedals. Speedplay,
Time, et. al.
Fourth Prinicple - high reps aggravate sore knees - drop the cadence

I think these two principles hit the nail on the head. If the OP has
any problems with fit, and cleat alignment is a good place to start
looking, that kind of high rpm will cause a problem. If there is a
stress point, it will be hit 50% more often at that rpm.

I don't understand the reason for cruising at that rpm. There are
certainly reasons for exercising at that rpm, but I don't know why
someone would do all their riding like that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Knee Pain:
First Principle - immediately change to float-type pedals. Speedplay,
Time, et. al.
Fourth Prinicple - high reps aggravate sore knees - drop the cadence

I think these two principles hit the nail on the head. If the OP has
any problems with fit, and cleat alignment is a good place to start
looking, that kind of high rpm will cause a problem. If there is a
stress point, it will be hit 50% more often at that rpm.

I don't understand the reason for cruising at that rpm. There are
certainly reasons for exercising at that rpm, but I don't know why
someone would do all their riding like that.

I agree about bringing down the cadence as such, but if the seat is at
the right height, the cleat angle is correct, and the rider is properly
warmed up (important especially for someone over 40 yrs old) then a
higher cadence shouldn't matter. Rather, the high cadence might be
aggravating a problem that might already have existed even at lower
revs.

I'm not an expert on bike fit but I ride moderately (5000 km/yr, rides
between 100-300 km typical). I can give my $0.02 worth of many own
experiences:

I managed to cure pain on the outside of my right knee by switching
from floating (red colour Look) cleats to fixed ones (black Look).
Seems that my knee didn't like my foot twisting around. One thing I had
to do, though, was get the angle of the cleat just right to avoid the
knee problem. In my case, I angle the foot so that the heel just misses
the crank on the downstroke (angled a bit like a duck). This is the
*opposite* advice given by rr6013, so YMMV.

Also see if riding with knees almost grazing the top tube, or splayed
out, makes any difference. Riding more pigeon-toed (cleat angle
determines this) will tend to bring the knees closer in. Experiment and
see what changes work best.

I like my saddle very high, extending toes downwards at the bottom of
the stroke. But too much of this also gets the knees complaining. So I
have the seat *slightly* lower, but not as low as the really good
riders (too low also causes knee pain for me).

Maybe the OP started riding too hard after his break from riding. One
solution may be to take it very easy in the first 10 km on a ride. I do
this, about to turn 45 yrs old, and my legs thank me for this.

As far as crank length goes, I'm playing around with that right now
(see previous postings this past 3 weeks) and I find that, as long as I
make the right compensations in saddle height, saddle fore/aft to
accommodate 177,5 instead of 172,5, it is working well. Some argue that
long cranks also cause knee pain, but not in my case, despite my very
fussy knees.

There are tons of variables to play with, and what causes knee problems
for some might actually alleviate them for others. But maybe the best
way for the OP to figure it all out is to invest some time and money,
and take the bike plus trainer/rollers to a sports doctor who has solid
experience with racing cyclists. I'm sure there are other solutions on
tap there, not covered here.

/Robert, in Sweden

colnalu said:

I agree about bringing down the cadence as such, but if the seat is at
the right height, the cleat angle is correct, and the rider is properly
warmed up (important especially for someone over 40 yrs old) then a
higher cadence shouldn't matter. Rather, the high cadence might be
aggravating a problem that might already have existed even at lower
revs.

I agree in general. Although it is also quite likely that at a higher
rpm the pedal stroke may change fundamentally, or there may be a
threshold rpm above which it causes injury, I would probably start with
the assumption that the problem is there at lower rpms. I am not
blaming the high rpm itself- I am just questioning it, since I know of
no good reason for anyone to cycle steadily at that rpm rate for 60
miles. If there _is_ a good reason to ride at that rate I would be
interested to hear what it is.

Quoted message said:

There are tons of variables to play with, and what causes knee problems
for some might actually alleviate them for others. But maybe the best
way for the OP to figure it all out is to invest some time and money,
and take the bike plus trainer/rollers to a sports doctor who has solid
experience with racing cyclists.

Good luck on finding one of those in the US- they're probably a few of
them if you're in the right place and willing to pay big dollars.

I would suggest Wheelworks in Belmont over Cycle Loft for a fitting.
They do both bike fitting and pedal/cleat fitting. Prices are up on
their web site. (And parking is much much easier than at Cycle Loft).

Personally I'd get rid of the Look pedals. I have knee "issues" as
well, and the Look systems simply do not have enough float - even the
red ones have basically zero.. (Time and Shimano road pedals are
equally bad). If you get the cleat adjustment exactly spot-on perfect
it may help - but that's virtually impossible to do. (Float on most
Look pedals is about three degrees - so you need to get your adjustment
within about one degree). Your pain symptoms, and your odd walking
stance, all point to cleat issues.

A better pedal system, such as Speedplay, or even Shimano mountain bike
SPDs, could solve your knee problems immediately. You could try it out
for free; throw a pair of your mountain bike pedals on, or some flat
pedals, and go for a ride.

You might also try lowering your seat slightly. Too low will be very
slightly inefficient, but won't hurt. Too high can easily cause pain.

Quoted message said:

I think these two principles hit the nail on the head. If
the OP has any problems with fit, and cleat alignment is a
good place to start looking, that kind of high rpm will
cause a problem. If there is a stress point, it will be hit
50% more often at that rpm.

I don't understand the reason for cruising at that rpm.
There are certainly reasons for exercising at that rpm, but
I don't know why someone would do all their riding like

I end up riding quite fast. I know it
is quite inefficient. I am wondering
if going to a short crank versus 172.5
might be a good idea. I'm very tempted
to try the speedplay.

I tend to cruise around 100 rpm alot.
At 80 rpm my knee really hurt bad
on a 5 mile trial yesterday. My current
plan is stay off for two weeks. I have
a physical scheduled in two weeks.
I'm thinking at the point to go back to
50 miles a week.

I had rushed myself up to 100 miles a week
and perhaps it was part of my problem. I
should have done more time at 90 miles a week
and 80 miles a week. I had a dream of getting
in 120 and 150 mile weeks this summer.
I also didn't cycle during April when my
knee hurt all over.

Bill

Quoted message said:

You might also try lowering your seat slightly. Too low will be very slightly inefficient, but won't hurt. Too high can easily cause pain.

Disagree. Too low can also cause knee pain.

Art Harris