When Science has not the answer ??

"Rod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

Rod.

Science is at its most interesting when it has only questions.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Rod" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

Rod.

Science is at its most interesting when it has only questions.

--Rich

It is also at its most harmless. Is that a helpful answer? Eat ginseng and
thrive!

This guy asked a fair question, Rich.

Here we are in an alt discussion group and every unusual, strange and
bizarre option that doesn't resonate with common medical practice gets
pounded with the defense of saving the innocents.

That technique is exercised in here constantly, so if there is any
chance that people would refrain from the antagonism and spiteful
arguments, then do that here, would you?

Respectfully answer this guy's question. What would you people do if
you were in that situation?

If you ever knew someone who was given a solid 6 month prognosis, but
still told to take drugs and treatments that drained the inheritance
to follow and reduced quality of life, you may have more interest in
this answer that would put you on a path of discovery.

Please....refrain from giving up quips and antagonistic statements.
Undoubtedly someone could write something you disagree with. Give
some considerate information or just let this one go.

That's not too much to ask after all the multitude of arguments that
have been and will yet feed the need in here.

Mike

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This guy asked a fair question, Rich.

Here we are in an alt discussion group and every unusual, strange and
bizarre option that doesn't resonate with common medical practice gets
pounded with the defense of saving the innocents.

That technique is exercised in here constantly, so if there is any
chance that people would refrain from the antagonism and spiteful
arguments, then do that here, would you?

Respectfully answer this guy's question. What would you people do if
you were in that situation?

What situation? No "situation" has been described.

Quoted message said:

If you ever knew someone who was given a solid 6 month prognosis, but
still told to take drugs and treatments that drained the inheritance
to follow and reduced quality of life, you may have more interest in
this answer that would put you on a path of discovery.

Who said the questioner has a mortal prognosis. Maybe he's just frustrated
by his jock itch.

Quoted message said:

Please....refrain from giving up quips and antagonistic statements.
Undoubtedly someone could write something you disagree with. Give
some considerate information or just let this one go.

I am always willing to politely give information when asked for it. But what
"information" really asked for here? Jan will scream "CHECK THE TEETH!" and
Dave will try to turn the questioner into an MLM downline ginseng salesman,
but nobody could give a truly useful, compassionate answer to this post.

Quoted message said:

That's not too much to ask after all the multitude of arguments that
have been and will yet feed the need in here.

Mike

Lighten up, Mike. The guy made a subtle slur on science. He gave no detail
of what questions he believes science has failed to answer, and thus is not
really seeking legitimate advice. He just wants to repeat that popular altie
implication that if science does not have the answers to everything, then
perhaps they have the answers to nothing. My answer was not flippant. It
reiterates that science is a dynamic process and there is joy in exploring
the as yet undiscovered nature of the universe.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This guy asked a fair question, Rich.

Here we are in an alt discussion group and every unusual, strange and
bizarre option that doesn't resonate with common medical practice gets
pounded with the defense of saving the innocents.

That technique is exercised in here constantly, so if there is any
chance that people would refrain from the antagonism and spiteful
arguments, then do that here, would you?

Respectfully answer this guy's question. What would you people do if
you were in that situation?

What situation? No "situation" has been described.

Quoted message said:

If you ever knew someone who was given a solid 6 month prognosis, but
still told to take drugs and treatments that drained the inheritance
to follow and reduced quality of life, you may have more interest in
this answer that would put you on a path of discovery.

Who said the questioner has a mortal prognosis. Maybe he's just frustrated
by his jock itch.

Quoted message said:

Please....refrain from giving up quips and antagonistic statements.
Undoubtedly someone could write something you disagree with. Give
some considerate information or just let this one go.

I am always willing to politely give information when asked for it. But

what

Quoted message said:

"information" really asked for here? Jan will scream "CHECK THE TEETH!"

and

Quoted message said:

Dave will try to turn the questioner into an MLM downline ginseng

salesman,

Quoted message said:

but nobody could give a truly useful, compassionate answer to this post.

Quoted message said:

That's not too much to ask after all the multitude of arguments that
have been and will yet feed the need in here.

Mike

Lighten up, Mike. The guy made a subtle slur on science. He gave no detail
of what questions he believes science has failed to answer, and thus is

not

Quoted message said:

really seeking legitimate advice. He just wants to repeat that popular

altie

Quoted message said:

implication that if science does not have the answers to everything, then
perhaps they have the answers to nothing. My answer was not flippant. It
reiterates that science is a dynamic process and there is joy in exploring
the as yet undiscovered nature of the universe.

--Rich

I know there must be a pony in here somwhere!

He said this:
When science has not the answer?
Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

It's not too difficult to see a useful question there and respond with
a useful answer. This is a legitimate situation that happens every
day in hospitals and doctors offices.

" The guy made a subtle slur on science."
It's tough to read this and think you were honestly offended.
Lighten up yourself, Rich.

Jock itch does have a quick medically based answer you pick up in the
grocery store. There are also alternative methods. Both are
effective.

Might you have a problem with a respectful and considerate
conversation in this group? Probably. You couldn't give me it when I
clearly asked for it. Why would you expect to get it from anyone
else.

You argued and offered nothing.
If someone wants to suggest to check teeth or take ginseng for all of
life's troubles, it sure beats listening to some guy pound his chest.

What do you have to offer, besides beating down everything.

I'm honestly interested not just in what you would do, but what others
would do.

Mike

Quoted message said:

Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

Rod.

I'm here for you, Rod. I have the answers you need, just open your heart and
accept the healing.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

He said this:
When science has not the answer?
Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

It's too vague a question to be answerable.

If you want to know something like "what shall I do with my life?" or,
for that matter, "what is the meaning of life?", science doesn't have
the answer to that. It might help you with the former question by
testing you to see what you're good at, or well-suited to, but it
can't tell you what'll make you happy.

In the latter question, meaning really isn't a subject science
studies. Science studies how and why, but isn't in the business of
giving meaning to life. Go ask your priest.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Just because you have no useful answer doesn't mean there isn't one.
There are many.
It doesn't mean the effectiveness is absolute or the process is easy,
but that's often the same answer in modern medicine.

This isn't a trick question. It's the type of thing I would enjoy
discussing in here. I honestly would like to know what others offer
to people in this position.

The reason you see vagueness is because common medical science is
allopathic looking for alleviation of symptoms instead of a cure to
the whole. Medical science accepts that it is the end all for options
within preventatives and restorative health. People who agree with
that, end life peacefully accepting that they did all they could do,
because modern medicine has told them so.

The answer to this question is where alternative health begins its
acceptance by even the staunchest medical proponent who at the most
drastic time becomes willing to investigate instead of willing to die.

This is an alt health group and where that answer belongs.
The question this guy proposed is presented every day.

Alternative Health isn't a side in a war. It's an area of thought to
new frontiers. Some methods do work that you know nothing about.
Others are abismal failures that receive the most obvious prattle over
and over again.

One day, if you know people as close friends and family at all, you
will have this question presented to you in real life.

Mike

Quoted message said:

If you ever knew someone who was given a solid 6 month prognosis, but
still told to take drugs and treatments that drained the inheritance
to follow and reduced quality of life, you may have more interest in
this answer that would put you on a path of discovery.

Roy Smith. He had ALS and some charlatans stole his money with fake
"cures".

Sandra Schmirler (Gold medal, Nagano Winter Olympics). She had cancer
and a quack took thousands of dollars from her to tell her to stop
having treatment. She died a couple of weeks after telling a press
conference how she had just bathed her seven-month-old daughter for
the first time.

Barry Sheen (World 500cc Motorcycle Champion, 1976-77). He was told
that fruit juice and positive thinking would cure his cancer. They
didn't.

Annette Pypops (Canadian academic). Doctors told her she might live
for two years without treatment for her cancer. A quack took her money
and she lived for 20 months. The quack was still using testimonials
from her on his web site two years after he killed her.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
and The New Improved Quintessence of the Loon with added Vitamins and C-Q10 http://www.ratbags.com/loon
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: When Science has not the answer ??
From: "Dave" [email hidden]
Date: 11/8/2003 12:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This guy asked a fair question, Rich.

Here we are in an alt discussion group and every unusual, strange and
bizarre option that doesn't resonate with common medical practice gets
pounded with the defense of saving the innocents.

That technique is exercised in here constantly, so if there is any
chance that people would refrain from the antagonism and spiteful
arguments, then do that here, would you?

Respectfully answer this guy's question. What would you people do if
you were in that situation?

What situation? No "situation" has been described.

Quoted message said:

If you ever knew someone who was given a solid 6 month prognosis, but
still told to take drugs and treatments that drained the inheritance
to follow and reduced quality of life, you may have more interest in
this answer that would put you on a path of discovery.

Who said the questioner has a mortal prognosis. Maybe he's just frustrated
by his jock itch.

I believe that makes Mike's point.

Quoted message said:

Please....refrain from giving up quips and antagonistic statements.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Undoubtedly someone could write something you disagree with. Give
some considerate information or just let this one go.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am always willing to politely give information when asked for it.

This guy asked a fair question, Rich.

Quoted message said:

But what "information" really asked for here?

Quoted message said:

Jan

Quoted message said:

Dave

Oops, names mentioned because Rich can't answer politely, as in maybe he has
*jock itch*

Quoted message said:

That's not too much to ask after all the multitude of arguments that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have been and will yet feed the need in here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike

Quoted message said:

Lighten up, Mike.

Mike doesn't need to lighten up.

It is noted, Rich overlooks HIS weaknesses, and struggles to insult everyone,
rather than look in the mirror.

Quoted message said:

The guy made a subtle slur on science.

There is an excellent example of debunker thinking. There was no slur, stublte
or otherwise.

It appears Rich believes science already knows it all.

Sounds like Barrett, no further research needs done.

Quoted message said:

He gave no detail

Quoted message said:

of what questions he believes science has failed to answer, and thus is

not really seeking legitimate advice.

This is another example of one who thinks he knows it all. He immediately tells
us what the poster meant, why he asked a question, and what he is not
interested in.

He just wants to repeat that popular

Quoted message said:

altie

Quoted message said:

implication that if science does not

have the answers to everything,

Uh huh, Just made my point. The debunkers believe science HAS all the answers.

Quoted message said:

then perhaps they have the answers to nothing. My answer was not flippant

Rich had no answer, in fact he did exactly what he accused the poster of.

It is a habit of the debunkers.

Quoted message said:

It

Quoted message said:

reiterates that science is a dynamic process and there is joy in exploring
the as yet undiscovered nature of the universe.

--Rich

Now back to the question.

When Science has not the answer ??

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: When Science has not the answer ??
From: [email hidden] (David Wright)
Date: 11/8/2003 1:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

He said this:
When science has not the answer?
Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

It's too vague a question to be answerable.

Not if necessary. What one would do, when science has not the answer. It
happens everyday.

Note, how the debunkers will divert to any and all subjects, but not to
medicine.

They have vested years with their EGO and questions which might cause them to
back down and rethink things, is out of the question.

A pity this ng is an ego game to many.

Jan

Peter,
The list of charlatans, conmen and thieves is long in any business
that offers money in exchange for a service. That includes alternative
snake oil salesmen and shady medical doctors.

Fear of deception by these people doesn't justify not exploring
options when the common science has no answers.

At least it doesn't to me.
Put yourself in that position.
What would you do?

Mike

(Jan) said:

Now back to the question.

When Science has not the answer ??

The answer is obvious. Check the teeth. And then read about how Jan
Drew lied about her amalgam history to make it look that she had
mercury poisoning.

Jan Drew said " I know it was the metal in my mouth because I did not
begin to regain my health until after the mercury level dropped".

Jan Drew felt better than she did in two years hours after having her
amalgams out when her mercury level was unchanged. Jan Drew admitted
that she felt better due to relief. A week later Jan Drew said that
she was able to go out line dancing since she was no longer getting a
daily dose of amalgam. But a week after having the amalgams out her
mercury level was likely the highest in her life. It certainly was not
lower as Jan claims. And Jan WAS still getting a daily dose of mercury
since she still had several more amalgams to be removed and they would
not be removed for another three weeks!

Jan Drew is a despicable liar. Listen to her and get your amalgams
removed unnecessarily. Jan Drew, four years after having amalgams
removed is STILL taking two prescription medications to treat what
supposedly was the root of her problem.

And all Jan could do in response to the above is to personally attack
me. She cannot reconcile her contradictory statements because she lied
and she knows it.

That's a wrap.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

Jan

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.

Quoted message said:

Might you have a problem with a respectful and considerate
conversation in this group? Probably. You couldn't give me it when I
clearly asked for it.

I find it very curious that you only accuse the skeptics in this group
of having a problem with respectful and considerate conversation while
NEVER criticizing the pro-alts many of whom also are not respectful or
considerate in discussion. In fact the one person who arguably is the
most disrespectful and inconsiderate one in this group you give a
complete pass to. It is obvious that you have an agenda and are very
selective in who you criticize for what you consider to be
inappropriate behavior.

Often reasonable discussions get completely derailed by a single
individual who refuses to allow posters to express an opinion that
differs from hers. She falsely calls them liars, stalkers, member of
EEEEEEEVIL organized medicine simply because they express a POV that
differs from hers. But not a peep out of you for this type of
behavior. To the contrary. You seem to defend this person from
reasonable criticism.

Quoted message said:

Why would you expect to get it from anyone
else.

Maybe you should address this question to a particular pro-alt poster
who seems to like to hand it out but whines when she gets it right
back.

Quoted message said:

You argued and offered nothing.

Funny you don't criticize a certain poster for doing this very thing
and she does it far more often than anyone else in this group IMO.

Quoted message said:

If someone wants to suggest to check teeth or take ginseng for all of
life's troubles, it sure beats listening to some guy pound his chest.

If someone lies about having mercury poisoning, suggests that a person
see an alternative dentist who preys on the fears of sick people I
think it appropriate to call this person on their lies. You OTOH try
to protect her from such criticism and say it does not matter to you
that she lies.

Quoted message said:

What do you have to offer, besides beating down everything.

Funny how you don't have a problem with some who beat down
conventional medicine. You only have a problem with those who beat
down certain alternative methods. Selective so it seems. This group is
to discuss alternative health methods pro AND con.

Quoted message said:

I'm honestly interested not just in what you would do, but what others
would do.

You are honestly interested in discouraging people from appropriately
criticizing alternative health methods. And you are very dishonest
about your motivations as you repeatedly criticize people for the
*way* in which they express their opinion but in *every* case you
criticize those who express skepticism of alt. medicine and completely
ignore those who are equally or more obnoxious but happen to have a
pro-alt ideology.

Aloha,

Rich

Quoted message said:

Mike

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

The best defense to logic is ignorance.

"David Wright" <[email hidden]> schreef in bericht
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"what is the meaning of life?", science doesn't have
the answer to that.

42, even mice know that one.

--

Robert Bronsing

But that's okay, see the children bleed
It'll look great on the TV

Thanks Mike,

Yes it was a simple question but look at the answers?

Rich says I am making a slur against science, Andrew asks me to open my
heart and accept the healing.(How comforting to know he is there for me.)
Then the rest of the discussion degenerates to pointless dialogue with the
normal point scoring associated with it.

13 years ago a young lad was born due to the invitro program. At birth there
were complications that the local hospital would not deal with due to the
nature of the conception. After 2.00 hours of travelling to Melbourne a
child was born by caesarean. The cord was wrapped around the neck and to
this day this child has never heard, seen, spoken or moved a muscle.
It was the first son of my brother and his wife. Within 12 months they
conceived another naturally without complication. Young Callum has of course
suffered immensely and continues to do so whilst his body contorts.
All his life is spent in a wheelchair and his spine has needed steel rod
implants to avoid doubling over. His life span is obviously short but our
science has kept him going.
To this world was born an Angel.

29 years ago, my wife whilst taking prescribed medications gave birth to our
only daughter. She was born with Telipes. We never thought much of why this
occurred until we discovered that the prescription for a morning sickness
drug was double prescribed in volume.
One accepts these things and goes through the recommendations that are
available at that time. It was a most difficult period with many operations
but most importantly a number to try and correct the initial surgery.
Finally a satisfactory result was achieved and our daughter who is employed
in Child Health continues to make us proud. Of course it is not over yet.

Recently my wife was called by her Doc late at night requesting her to
attend a Cardiologist the next day. (My wife went to this Doc as they were
advertising for women that were on HRT.)
Well we went and were advised that it was likely that my wife had blockages
in the heart arteries, this being confirmed by the Cardiologist ECG and of
course the initial testing. So we go to the Hospital the next day for the
angiogram.--------All clear. --------Apart from having to cancel an overseas
holiday we took it pretty well but had to wait for the final clearance from
the heart scan. Well that was all clear as well. Thank you medical science
as we felt it was better to be sure. So what was the problem ? Current
medications of Noten ! (Atenolol). A quick check on the possible side
effects confirmed that the likely culprit was a medication prescribed to
avoid these issues.

In the last two weeks I attended a funeral for a 29 year old who was my sons
best primary school mate. Hon past away due to his congenital heart disease
and after four open heart surgeries over this period. We knew him for 23
years and admired his courage and determination. Yet science could not help
him in the end. His surgeon admitted that all possible was done with the
knowledge that we possess. Hon left a legacy to the world with his web sites
and openly wrote of his experiences. For those interested try Hon Hiew.

http://www.reconstructiondesign.com/

My father is in the final stage of his leukaemia this past month. Finally
the chemo is unable to control the advance of this cancer. I accept his
inevitable death and am most thankful for what the Doctors have been able to
achieve.
He has had the utmost of treatment but yet we are unable to stop the final
stage.

So much remains unanswered whilst we go through this evolutionary phase.
In the seventeenth century blood letting was the treatment, in the latter
part even blood transfusions using animals blood was tried. Yes, we are
smarter but still have a long way to go.

So my question still remains with me.

When Science has not the answer??

Well can anyone really tell me where to turn to.

(Andrew excepted of course.)

Best wishes. Rod.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He said this:
When science has not the answer?
Well can anyone really tell me, where one turns to?

It's not too difficult to see a useful question there and respond with
a useful answer. This is a legitimate situation that happens every
day in hospitals and doctors offices.

" The guy made a subtle slur on science."
It's tough to read this and think you were honestly offended.
Lighten up yourself, Rich.

Jock itch does have a quick medically based answer you pick up in the
grocery store. There are also alternative methods. Both are
effective.

Might you have a problem with a respectful and considerate
conversation in this group? Probably. You couldn't give me it when I
clearly asked for it. Why would you expect to get it from anyone
else.

You argued and offered nothing.
If someone wants to suggest to check teeth or take ginseng for all of
life's troubles, it sure beats listening to some guy pound his chest.

What do you have to offer, besides beating down everything.

I'm honestly interested not just in what you would do, but what others
would do.

Mike

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rod said:

Thanks Mike,

Yes it was a simple question but look at the answers?

Rich says I am making a slur against science, Andrew asks me to open my
heart and accept the healing.(How comforting to know he is there for me.)
Then the rest of the discussion degenerates to pointless dialogue with the
normal point scoring associated with it.

<various anecdotes deleted>

I still don't really understand the point of your stories, except to
demonstrate that there are many things medicine can't do, which we
already know. In that case, you resign yourself to the inevitable.
What other choice is there?

It's always been that way. What would you say to someone 2500 years
ago who had any of the same conditions? Today, at least, we can save
lives that couldn't be saved then. We can't save all of them.

If we don't have an answer, we don't have an answer. This is not some
strike against science, it's merely a recognition that we have limits.

Quoted message said:

Well can anyone really tell me where to turn to.

Are you looking for a solution or just for comfort?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Thanks Mike,

Yes it was a simple question but look at the answers?

Rich says I am making a slur against science, Andrew asks me to open my
heart and accept the healing.(How comforting to know he is there for me.)
Then the rest of the discussion degenerates to pointless dialogue with the
normal point scoring associated with it.

Uh, Rod, let me introduce a point of fact here. Andrew thinks you are
sand-pounding [censored]. I, Ilsa, think you are one of God's creatures, deserving
of love, compassion, and healing.

Please make a note of it.

As for the question underlying your query, what does one do when they have a
medical condition that is beyond the scope of mainstream medicine? Well, this
is a question that has been with mankind since the dawning of human society.
What does a person with an incurable disease do?

There are NO easy answers. The best one can do, IMHO, is to try to enjoy what
time they have left by spending it with loved ones. One may spend their time
in an effort to research their condition, find alternatives, and try to adopt a
new lifestyle in hopes that the body will heal itself.

What one does when confronted by their own mortality is an individual matter.
It is as much a spiritual dilemna as a medical one. When medical science does
not provide palliation or longer life, then its time to make peace, try to
tie-up loose ends, and let your loved ones know how much they mean to you.

Rod, like yourself, I've been to many funerals. Some were young victims of
diseases, some were victims of accidents, and some of violence. We all have to
face the fact that we too will die some day.

Perhaps dedicating yourself to a health related cause (Diabetes, Heart Disease,
Cancer, etc) might be an answert. Perhaps supporting the work of conventional
medicine will lead to a time where less people are confronted with this
question and at an older age.