An Exercise for Debunkers

--

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can only think of two for now.

One is that there is no reason for any minor exogenous source of human
insulin to do this, when we have plenty of insulin already. The other is
that if ingested, the insulin, like other polypeptides would be digested
into its constituent amino acids, which is why insulin is not effective
orally in diabetics, and has to be injected.

The notion of yeast "infecting" other yeasts is, of course, nonsense, but

I

Quoted message said:

am not so sure as to whether some form of other exchange of DNA could

occur

Quoted message said:

between the various strains or species of yeast involved in these

products,

Quoted message said:

as happens with bacteriophages and bacteria.

But this won't stop the idea embedding itself in AM folklore, based as it

is

Quoted message said:

upon the "I read somewhere ----(so it must be true)" principle. Remember
how those with "Candida" were advised not to eat bread, even though any
baker could tell them bread yeast is a totally different creature to

Candida

Quoted message said:

Albicans?

And that yeast is thouroughly killed at baking oven temperatures.

Which leads to reason number three...

Who would you suppose employs the world's foremost experts on yeast culture?
Yes, of course, these employers would be the brewerys and the producers of
bakers' yeast. These industries carefully preserve their precious strains of
the little beasties, and could certainly detect and weed out any
contamination.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A writer for a local "New Age" newspaper came up with an interesting

theory

Quoted message said:

a couple of issues ago. He claims that the incidence of type II diabetes

has

Quoted message said:

reached epidemic levels, and proposes what he believes to be the cause. He
claims that genetic engineering is the culprit! He says that insulin is
produced by yeasts that have had the sequence for human insulin spliced

into

Quoted message said:

its DNA, and that those yeasts have "escaped" and infected beer and bread
yeasts, exposing us all to doses of unneeded insulin and causing diabetes.

The exercise is to come up with solid reasons why this theory cannot be
true. I can think of four.

You alties can play, too, but then you will be reclassified as confirmed
debunkers. So maybe you would rather uncritically swallow the theory whole
and start warning people against bread, beer, and other yeast products.

Have fun.

--Rich

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in the
good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

While looking into Kelley/Gonzalez cancer and enzymes I came across the
enzyme absorption dogma.

Here's some links to trash this....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1507408.stm
Aaron Foss, a graduate student at Purdue University, who made the
breakthrough, said that because the small intestine was less acidic it
enabled the polymer to swell and release the insulin.

It happens in the small intestine - not in the stomach due to the change in
PH.

Here's some other info you might be interested in to support this.

Leipner J, Saller R: Systemic enzyme therapy in oncology: effect and
mode of action. Drugs. 2000;59:769-80.

Ambrus JL, et al.: Absorption of exogenous and endogenous proteolytic
enzymes. Clin Pharmacol Therap 1967;8:362-8.

Kleine MW, et al.: The intestinal absorption of orally administered
hydrolytic enzymes and their effects in the treatment of acute herpes
zoster as compared with those of oral acyclovir therapy. Phytomedicine
1995;2:7-15.

Majima Y, et al.: The effect of an orally administered proteolytic
enzyme on the elasticity and viscosity of nasal mucus. Arch
Otorhinolaryngol. 1988;244(6):355-9.

Castell JV, et al. Intestinal absorption of undegraded proteins in men:
presence of bromelain in plasma after oral intake. Am J Physiol. 1997
Jul;273(1 Pt 1):G139-46.

Anth

Maybe yeast likes the climate 🙂
Anth

"stuart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dfeZa.25680$%T.11766@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A writer for a local "New Age" newspaper came up with an interesting

theory

Quoted message said:

a couple of issues ago. He claims that the incidence of type II diabetes

has

Quoted message said:

reached epidemic levels, and proposes what he believes to be the cause.

He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claims that genetic engineering is the culprit! He says that insulin is
produced by yeasts that have had the sequence for human insulin spliced

into

Quoted message said:

its DNA, and that those yeasts have "escaped" and infected beer and

bread

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yeasts, exposing us all to doses of unneeded insulin and causing

diabetes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The exercise is to come up with solid reasons why this theory cannot be
true. I can think of four.

You alties can play, too, but then you will be reclassified as confirmed
debunkers. So maybe you would rather uncritically swallow the theory

whole

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and start warning people against bread, beer, and other yeast products.

Have fun.

--Rich

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in

the

Quoted message said:

good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

"stuart" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:dfeZa.25680$%T.11766@edtnps84...

Quoted message said:

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in

the

Quoted message said:

good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

Being overly fat is the major culprit when it comes to explaining Type II
DM. It is due to overeating (very easy to do in a country where fast,
fattening, & not especially nutritious food is available on almost every
corner) AND a lack of exercise (a result of people utilizing labor saving
devices, & eschewing more active pastimes for their TV's w/ hundreds of
channels, computers, & video games). One doesn't necessarily have to stuff
one's face to be obese -- it's often a combination of too much of the wrong
foods & too little activity.

Michele
I ENJOY being a cranky [censored].

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not just
the abstracts?
I was thinking about going back to university and doing medicine this time,
rather than computers.
(I need some friends to exchange ideas about medicine - my computer
friends/workmates although smart are not really into health and medicine)
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can only think of two for now.

One is that there is no reason for any minor exogenous source of human
insulin to do this, when we have plenty of insulin already. The other is
that if ingested, the insulin, like other polypeptides would be digested
into its constituent amino acids, which is why insulin is not effective
orally in diabetics, and has to be injected.

The notion of yeast "infecting" other yeasts is, of course, nonsense, but

I

Quoted message said:

am not so sure as to whether some form of other exchange of DNA could

occur

Quoted message said:

between the various strains or species of yeast involved in these

products,

Quoted message said:

as happens with bacteriophages and bacteria.

But this won't stop the idea embedding itself in AM folklore, based as it

is

Quoted message said:

upon the "I read somewhere ----(so it must be true)" principle. Remember
how those with "Candida" were advised not to eat bread, even though any
baker could tell them bread yeast is a totally different creature to

Candida

Quoted message said:

Albicans?

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A writer for a local "New Age" newspaper came up with an interesting

theory

Quoted message said:

a couple of issues ago. He claims that the incidence of type II diabetes

has

Quoted message said:

reached epidemic levels, and proposes what he believes to be the cause. He
claims that genetic engineering is the culprit! He says that insulin is
produced by yeasts that have had the sequence for human insulin spliced

into

Quoted message said:

its DNA, and that those yeasts have "escaped" and infected beer and bread
yeasts, exposing us all to doses of unneeded insulin and causing diabetes.

The exercise is to come up with solid reasons why this theory cannot be
true. I can think of four.

You alties can play, too, but then you will be reclassified as confirmed
debunkers. So maybe you would rather uncritically swallow the theory whole
and start warning people against bread, beer, and other yeast products.

Have fun.

--Rich

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in the
good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

Don't forget laziness, drunkeness, and relatively low food prices.

Interesting article..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/337179.stm
Anth

--

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A writer for a local "New Age" newspaper came up with an interesting

theory

Quoted message said:

a couple of issues ago. He claims that the incidence of type II

diabetes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has

Quoted message said:

reached epidemic levels, and proposes what he believes to be the cause.

He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

claims that genetic engineering is the culprit! He says that insulin is
produced by yeasts that have had the sequence for human insulin spliced

into

Quoted message said:

its DNA, and that those yeasts have "escaped" and infected beer and

bread

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yeasts, exposing us all to doses of unneeded insulin and causing

diabetes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The exercise is to come up with solid reasons why this theory cannot be
true. I can think of four.

You alties can play, too, but then you will be reclassified as

confirmed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

debunkers. So maybe you would rather uncritically swallow the theory

whole

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and start warning people against bread, beer, and other yeast products.

Have fun.

--Rich

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

Don't forget laziness, drunkeness, and relatively low food prices.

But, back to the exercise, how do we know that DMII is NOT caused by those
sneaky genetically modified yeasts?

--Rich

Quoted message said:

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not just
the abstracts?
I was thinking about going back to university and doing medicine this time,
rather than computers.

ROTFLMAO!!!! Oh, you slay me, Anth, damn near ruptured my Spleen laughing!
Whew, whoa, let me catch my breath.....

Quoted message said:

(I need some friends to exchange ideas about medicine - my computer
friends/workmates although smart are not really into health and medicine)
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can only think of two for now.

Quoted message said:

"Ilsa9" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> A writer for a local "New Age" newspaper came up with an interesting
theory
> a couple of issues ago. He claims that the incidence of type II

diabetes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

has
> reached epidemic levels, and proposes what he believes to be the cause.

He

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> claims that genetic engineering is the culprit! He says that insulin is
> produced by yeasts that have had the sequence for human insulin spliced
into
> its DNA, and that those yeasts have "escaped" and infected beer and

bread

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> yeasts, exposing us all to doses of unneeded insulin and causing

diabetes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> The exercise is to come up with solid reasons why this theory cannot be
> true. I can think of four.
>
> You alties can play, too, but then you will be reclassified as

confirmed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> debunkers. So maybe you would rather uncritically swallow the theory

whole

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and start warning people against bread, beer, and other yeast products.
>
> Have fun.
>
> --Rich

Hate to inform you dear boy that Type 11 diabetes is mostly epidemic in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good ol' USA, mainly due to the ravenous gluttony of Americans;-0

Don't forget laziness, drunkeness, and relatively low food prices.

But, back to the exercise, how do we know that DMII is NOT caused by those
sneaky genetically modified yeasts?

--Rich

Because it all goes back to Homeopathy and Miasms. No, wait, it goes back to
H*lda Cl*rk and her fellow Parasites. No, wait, its the depleted topsoil
robbing us of essential sugars. No, wait, its the vaccines we took and the
Mercury....especially the form of mercury in the thimerisol free vaccines. No,
wait, its all of the toxins in our colons. No, wait, its all about Allergies.

Let me get back to you on which of the above is /currently/ the most avante
garde, vogue, & thus most definitive cause.

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not just
the abstracts?

You can get access to any so long as you are prepared to pay per article,
which can be expensive. Pubmed now indicates access to the full text where
that is available (often for a fee) on teh Internet.

Many journals allow their articles for free, others with time. See ---

http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/

If you have the basic qualifications, go for medicine. You have an
enquiring mind.

Peter Moran

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Couldn't they coat the insulin until it reaches the small intestine like
they do with most oral enzymes to ensure they cross the bowel wall and

into

Quoted message said:

the blood?

This will protect from the acid and pepsin in the stomach, but there are
still very potent peptidases produced by the pancreas and small bowel.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can only think of two for now.

One is that there is no reason for any minor exogenous source of human
insulin to do this, when we have plenty of insulin already. The other

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that if ingested, the insulin, like other polypeptides would be digested
into its constituent amino acids, which is why insulin is not effective
orally in diabetics, and has to be injected.

The notion of yeast "infecting" other yeasts is, of course, nonsense,

but

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

am not so sure as to whether some form of other exchange of DNA could

occur

Quoted message said:

between the various strains or species of yeast involved in these

products,

Quoted message said:

as happens with bacteriophages and bacteria.

But this won't stop the idea embedding itself in AM folklore, based as

it

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

upon the "I read somewhere ----(so it must be true)" principle.

Remember

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

how those with "Candida" were advised not to eat bread, even though any
baker could tell them bread yeast is a totally different creature to

Candida

Quoted message said:

Albicans?

Peter Moran

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While looking into Kelley/Gonzalez cancer and enzymes I came across the
enzyme absorption dogma.

Here's some links to trash this....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1507408.stm
Aaron Foss, a graduate student at Purdue University, who made the
breakthrough, said that because the small intestine was less acidic it
enabled the polymer to swell and release the insulin.

It happens in the small intestine - not in the stomach due to the change

in

Quoted message said:

PH.

Here's some other info you might be interested in to support this.

Leipner J, Saller R: Systemic enzyme therapy in oncology: effect and
mode of action. Drugs. 2000;59:769-80.

Ambrus JL, et al.: Absorption of exogenous and endogenous proteolytic
enzymes. Clin Pharmacol Therap 1967;8:362-8.

Kleine MW, et al.: The intestinal absorption of orally administered
hydrolytic enzymes and their effects in the treatment of acute herpes
zoster as compared with those of oral acyclovir therapy. Phytomedicine
1995;2:7-15.

Majima Y, et al.: The effect of an orally administered proteolytic
enzyme on the elasticity and viscosity of nasal mucus. Arch
Otorhinolaryngol. 1988;244(6):355-9.

Castell JV, et al. Intestinal absorption of undegraded proteins in men:
presence of bromelain in plasma after oral intake. Am J Physiol. 1997
Jul;273(1 Pt 1):G139-46.

It is true that enzymes can be absorbed in detectable amounts. The
question is whether enough can be absorbed to have useful medical effects.
The cell membrane would be a further major barrier against exogenous enzymes
having useful metabolic effects, and there must be concern about cytotoxic
effects and vascular damage from digestive enzymes.

We tolerate detectable amounts of amylases, lipases, and presumably
proteinases and peptidases in our blood streams normally, but when in
contact with even intact skin etc digestive enzymes can be very corrosive.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

Anth

I've basically been begging around for articles from people who have them or
buying books etc.
Slow/expensive
Thanks for help
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the abstracts?

You can get access to any so long as you are prepared to pay per article,
which can be expensive. Pubmed now indicates access to the full text

where

Quoted message said:

that is available (often for a fee) on teh Internet.

Many journals allow their articles for free, others with time. See ---

http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/

If you have the basic qualifications, go for medicine. You have an
enquiring mind.

Peter Moran

I've also got a lot to learn but you have to start somewhere.
Shame I spent 18 years in computers just to ditch it and go onto something
else.
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the abstracts?

You can get access to any so long as you are prepared to pay per article,
which can be expensive. Pubmed now indicates access to the full text

where

Quoted message said:

that is available (often for a fee) on teh Internet.

Many journals allow their articles for free, others with time. See ---

http://www.freemedicaljournals.com/

If you have the basic qualifications, go for medicine. You have an
enquiring mind.

Peter Moran

In article <[email hidden]>,

Anth said:

Couldn't they coat the insulin until it reaches the small intestine like
they do with most oral enzymes to ensure they cross the bowel wall and into
the blood?

That wouldn't work. Oral enzymes that are coated are digestive enzymes.
They are normally secreted by the pancreas and normally work in the
lumen of the small intestine. They are usually given for exocrine
pancreatic insufficiency, a condition in which the pancreas cannot
secrete the necessary digestive enzymes. They are NOT absorbed into the
blood. Because these enzymes normally work in the early part of the
small bowel but not in the stomach, the purpose of the coating placed
around the enzymes is to allow them to survive passing through the
stomach and its acid and different digestive enzymes, NOT to allow them
to be absorbed into the bloodstream by the small intestine.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Anth said:

While looking into Kelley/Gonzalez cancer and enzymes I came across the
enzyme absorption dogma.

Here's some links to trash this....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1507408.stm

But this doesn't "trash" the observation that, with possibly a couple of
exceptions, unprotected proteins are not absorbed through the GI tract
into the bloodstream in active form in any significant quantity. It
takes some clever and sophisticated chemical and biochemical
manipulations to get proteins to be absorbed in active form through the
digestive tract, as the article whose URL you posted clearly shows.

Quoted message said:

It happens in the small intestine - not in the stomach due to the change in
PH.

Here's some other info you might be interested in to support this.

Leipner J, Saller R: Systemic enzyme therapy in oncology: effect and
mode of action. Drugs. 2000;59:769-80.

A review article. From the abstract, it doesn't seem to mention anything
about these enzymes being absorbed systemically, but rather how having a
higher level of enzymes in the small bowel may induce the synthesis of
antiproteases.

Quoted message said:

Ambrus JL, et al.: Absorption of exogenous and endogenous proteolytic
enzymes. Clin Pharmacol Therap 1967;8:362-8.

Very old article. I was unable to get the abstract.

Quoted message said:

Kleine MW, et al.: The intestinal absorption of orally administered
hydrolytic enzymes and their effects in the treatment of acute herpes
zoster as compared with those of oral acyclovir therapy. Phytomedicine
1995;2:7-15.

Couldn't find this article on Medline.

Quoted message said:

Majima Y, et al.: The effect of an orally administered proteolytic
enzyme on the elasticity and viscosity of nasal mucus. Arch
Otorhinolaryngol. 1988;244(6):355-9.

It is not clear from the abstract whether the effect was thought to be
due to systemic effects or local effects on the mucus.

Quoted message said:

Castell JV, et al. Intestinal absorption of undegraded proteins in men:
presence of bromelain in plasma after oral intake. Am J Physiol. 1997
Jul;273(1 Pt 1):G139-46.

Interesting article, but the amount absorbed was small and doesn't
demonstrate that the "enzyme therapy" used in some alternative medicine
treatments produces measurable active protein in the blood.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Anth said:

Peter do you know how I can get access to whole pubmed articles - not just
the abstracts?

From a medical school library. That's about it. That's how I get them in
the form of PDF files. There are paid services but I believe they are
expensive.

[Snip]
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"