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UK and Europe
Published
30 June 2005
Last activity
1 July 2005
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Just zis Guy, you know?
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41
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  1. Comment from the BMA ARM:

    "I've just heard from the BMA conference that they have approved a
    motion to seek compulsory helmet use by both adults and children.
    There was a sizeable majority in favour."

    "The debate was short (2 speakers each side) with the pro-speakers
    using emotive arguments with wrong facts. The Chairman of Council
    (Sir Charles George) spoke in favour (having previously said he
    wouldn't) and the conference chair (Sam Everington, from East London)
    apparently gave a very biased summing up."

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  2. Just zis Guy said:

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.


    Bit sad. How do the BMA now go about making this motion happen?

  3. stupot said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.

    Quoted message said:

    Bit sad. How do the BMA now go about making this motion happen?

    It joins lots of other things on the lists of things they are lobbying
    for.

    Like promoting bike use. And smoking bans. And stuff.

    It doesn't, in the global scheme of things, make that much difference
    *except* that the BMA were a trump card in the Martlew debate. This
    is somewhat worse than them haivng been pro all along, in some ways,
    and of course it is based on a very selective presentation of the
    evidence.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  4. "stupot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Just zis Guy said:

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.

    Bit sad. How do the BMA now go about making this motion happen?

    By supporting Fat Eric next time he tries it on :-(

    cheers,
    clive


  5. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.

    I am appalled to find myself associated with this nonsense.
    We can only hope now that the gov will hear more authoritative voices
    and shrink from such a grossly illiberal law.
    I am quite sure that the majority of reps that voted could not care
    less about the details either way.The implication is that all BMA
    pronouncements are similarly valueless.

    TerryJ

  6. Response to :

    Quoted message said:

    The implication is that all BMA
    pronouncements are similarly valueless.

    That's what struck me when the BMA executed their volte-face: rather like
    my sig -

    "I've noticed that the press tends to be quite accurate, except when
    they're writing on a subject I know something about."

    - I'd never really questioned the image of the BMA as a serious
    professional body which reaches its decisions after weighing the evidence
    available [and yes, I know I'm naive ;-)]; if there were any justice, the
    BMA would have to be concerned at its reputation, though I doubt *that*
    will happen anytime soon.

    The transcript is now up on Bikebiz at:
    http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5728

    ; read it, if you want to get pretty angry on the matter. If [God
    forbid] I found myself in a radio studio commenting on this, I would in
    particular be pouring scorn on the fatuous notion of comparing a head to
    a water-melon, as a method of determining the efficacy of cycle helmets.

    --
    Mark, UK

    "I have found people to be more kind than I expected, and less just."

  7. you know? said:

    Comment from the BMA ARM:

    "I've just heard from the BMA conference that they have approved a
    motion to seek compulsory helmet use by both adults and children.
    There was a sizeable majority in favour."

    "The debate was short (2 speakers each side) with the pro-speakers
    using emotive arguments with wrong facts. The Chairman of Council
    (Sir Charles George) spoke in favour (having previously said he
    wouldn't) and the conference chair (Sam Everington, from East London)
    apparently gave a very biased summing up."

    So, it's official: in the eyes of the BMA cycling is so good for us,
    but so dangerous that there is no cycle journey which can safely be
    undertaken without special protective equipment designed to protect
    against a simple fall from a stationary or slow-moving bike.

    That's two reasons the BMA have gone down in my opinion today.

    Obviously the helmet thing.

    The other was the abortion limit debate. I don't know enough to have a sensible
    opinion on the correct limit, but surely, it's not a matter of whether or not
    the foetus could survive if it were born/delivered by a certain age that is
    important, but at what stage it develops any sense of self awareness.

    The doctors seem to think the limit should be determined by their ability to
    keep a foetus alive, i.e. basing it on *their* expertise, rather than the
    potential to destroy a self aware entity.

    And I bet if you accused them of playing God they'd get all upset.

  8. Mark McNeill said:


    ; read it, if you want to get pretty angry on the matter. If [God forbid]
    I found myself in a radio studio commenting on this, I would in particular
    be pouring scorn on the fatuous notion of comparing a head to a
    water-melon, as a method of determining the efficacy of cycle helmets.


    Water melon? That's just unscientific.

    As someone who works in high performance computing,
    I know that there are LS-Dyna models for heads and bicycle helmets.
    http://www.hprl.org/personnel/swanson.html
    Make a reasoned argument with the specifics if you will,
    but if (say) Top Gear showed shots of water melons being used
    in crash tests they would be laughed at.

  9. Quoted message said:

    I am appalled to find myself associated with this nonsense.

    You are not alone:

    Dr Stephen Watkins, chair of the BMA’s Transport and Health Working
    Group and Director of Public Health at Stockport Primary Care Trust,
    said:

    "Almost everywhere cycle helmets have been made compulsory,
    cycling has fallen by 25-40%. The BMA Board of Science’s own
    calculations indicate that, if we could promote cycling as the
    main mode of transport for journeys under 5 miles, thousands of
    lives would be saved by reducing heart disease. [...]

    Last time the BMA’s own public health conference considered
    the issue it rejected it by a large margin. It is depressing that
    the BMA has now adopted this unscientific stance that will cause
    great harm.”

    They also said in debate that the Cochrane review was of "randomised
    controlled studies" whereas it's actually of observational studies,
    and mainly the reviewers' own at that.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  10. Steven said:

    The other was the abortion limit debate. I don't know enough to have a sensible
    opinion on the correct limit, but surely, it's not a matter of whether or not
    the foetus could survive if it were born/delivered by a certain age that is
    important, but at what stage it develops any sense of self awareness.

    A *very* tricky can of worms.

    Quoted message said:

    The doctors seem to think the limit should be determined by their ability to
    keep a foetus alive, i.e. basing it on *their* expertise, rather than the
    potential to destroy a self aware entity.

    Problem becomes defining self awareness. A single cell is sufficiently
    self aware to react to stimuli, repel invasion, follow chemical
    instructions, etc., but it isn't self aware by most definitions. How
    *exactly* do you define that, in an objectively quantifiable way?

    I don't know, and I suspect it's an argument with an awful lot of grey
    areas. The reason the debates run and run, I think, is because there
    are no objectively simple points for deciding when a foetus becomes a
    person (aside from "at conception" and "at birth", but I don't think
    either is really helpful here).

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  11. John Hearns said:

    As someone who works in high performance computing, I know that there are
    LS-Dyna models for heads and bicycle helmets.
    http://www.hprl.org/personnel/swanson.html

    An interesting snippet from that website:

    Warning to Bicycle Helmet Users: During the last two years, the
    technical staff of HPRL has encountered an interesting problem with the
    aerodynamic-shaped or streamlined helmets. These popular helmets have
    a teardrop design which tapers to a wedge at the rear of the helmet,
    supposedly offering reduced aerodynamic drag along with increased
    ventilation through the many openings in the shell.

    The adverse effect of this aerodynamic shape is that the wedge at the
    back of the helmet tends to deflect and rotate the helmet on the head
    when impact occurs there. Any impact at the front or sides of the
    streamlined helmet is not affected, but any impact at the rear wedge
    tends to rotate the helmet on the head and possibly deflect the helmet
    exposing the bare head to impact, or at worst ejecting the helmet
    completely from the head. Actually, everybody who has tested these
    streamlined helmets over the years had the problem of these helmets
    being displaced during impact testing at the rear wedge, and usually
    additional tape was required to maintain the helmet in place (the
    retention system alone could not keep the helmet in place during
    testing). Unfortunately, the implication of helmet displacement and
    possible ejection in an accident did not register previously as a real
    hazard, but accident cases are showing this to be a real problem.
    Accident impacts at the rear of these streamlined helmets can cause the
    helmet to rotate away and expose the head to injury. The forces from the
    wedge effect can stretch the chin straps very easily and break the Roc
    Loc (or equivalent).

    This problem will be studied by HPRL technical staff and presented to
    the ASTM F08 Committee for consideration. In the meanwhile insure the
    chin straps of your helmet are securely fastened and properly adjusted,
    and if you fall, do your best not to hit the wedge part of the back of
    the helmet. Just take note that the Extreme BMX'rs who crash a lot don't
    use many of the streamlined bike helmets.

    Mike

  12. On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:33:56 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Steven said:

    The other was the abortion limit debate. I don't know enough to have a sensible
    opinion on the correct limit, but surely, it's not a matter of whether or not
    the foetus could survive if it were born/delivered by a certain age that is
    important, but at what stage it develops any sense of self awareness.

    A *very* tricky can of worms.

    Quoted message said:

    The doctors seem to think the limit should be determined by their ability to
    keep a foetus alive, i.e. basing it on *their* expertise, rather than the
    potential to destroy a self aware entity.

    Problem becomes defining self awareness. A single cell is sufficiently
    self aware to react to stimuli, repel invasion, follow chemical
    instructions, etc., but it isn't self aware by most definitions. How
    *exactly* do you define that, in an objectively quantifiable way?

    I don't know, and I suspect it's an argument with an awful lot of grey
    areas. The reason the debates run and run, I think, is because there
    are no objectively simple points for deciding when a foetus becomes a
    person (aside from "at conception" and "at birth", but I don't think
    either is really helpful here).

    This is quite true.

    I just thank God that I don't have to make a decision on it!

  13. CTC press release:

    BMA helmet decision flawed say doctors

    The British Medical Association has today delivered a serious
    blow to the promotion of cycling as a healthy form of transport and
    recreation, based on an inadequate and unscientific debate, flawed
    evidence and against views of its own members working in public health
    according to CTC, the national cyclists’ organisation.

    The BMA Annual Representatives Meeting (ARM) voted to press
    for a ban on cycling without a helmet, for people of all ages after a
    debate lasting only five minutes during which many doctors responsible
    for public health strategy were not allowed to speak.

    Dr Stephen Watkins, chair of the BMA’s Transport and Health
    Working Group and Director of Public Health at Stockport Primary Care
    Trust, said:

    “Almost everywhere cycle helmets have been made compulsory
    cycling has fallen by 25-40%. The BMA Board of Science’s own
    calculations indicate that, if we could promote cycling as the main
    mode of transport for journeys under 5 miles, thousands of lives would
    be saved by reducing heart disease. This contrasts with just a
    handful of deaths which might be saved by cycle helmets.

    Last time the BMA’s own public health conference considered
    the issue it rejected it by a large margin. It is depressing that the
    BMA has now adopted this unscientific stance that will cause great
    harm.”

    During the debate, Sir Charles George (the Chairman of the
    BMA’s Board of Science) was accused of misinformation by some
    delegates for presenting as evidence a study of helmets that has been
    widely criticised for a lack of transparency and which ignored the
    fact that the findings were totally at variance with all available
    “real-world” population-level evidence. The UK Government knows of no
    case where increased helmet-wearing has ever been linked to
    improvements in cycle safety and no other significant evidence was
    presented to the meeting.

    The issue of cycle helmets is highly contentious, with all of
    the UK’s major cycling organisations being strongly opposed to
    compulsory helmet-wearing. The main concern of cycling organisations
    is the overwhelming evidence from other countries that such laws lead
    to substantial reductions in cycle use, thereby undermining the
    realisation of its health and other benefits.

    In 1999, the BMA itself voted against compulsory
    helmet-wearing. Its report issued at that time noted not only that
    helmet compulsion would undermine cycle use, but also that the
    protective value of helmets is limited (they are only designed to
    withstand impacts up to around 13mph, equivalent to falling from a
    stationary riding position, and that most fatal and serious cyclist
    injuries involve impacts with motor vehicles at impact speeds above
    what helmets can withstand), and that such a law would lead to
    enforcement difficulties. Key road safety organisations such as the
    Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) and the
    Parliamentary Advisory Council on Transport Safety (PACTS) are also
    opposed to helmet compulsion for similar reasons.

    CTC Director Kevin Mayne said:

    “This decision could not come at a worse time. Right now we
    really ought to be working closely with the BMA and other health
    professionals to encourage more and safer cycling as a way to tackle
    Britain’s obesity epidemic. The doctors who voted for
    helmet-compulsion may have been well-intentioned, but actually their
    stance will do far more harm to the health of the nation than any
    benefit which helmets might have achieved.”
    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  14. you know? said:

    CTC press release:

    I feel better for reading that.

    Thanks, Guy.

  15. Response to Mike Causer:

    Quoted message said:

    The adverse effect of this aerodynamic shape is that the wedge at the
    back of the helmet tends to deflect and rotate the helmet on the head
    when impact occurs there. Any impact at the front or sides of the
    streamlined helmet is not affected, but any impact at the rear wedge
    tends to rotate the helmet on the head and possibly deflect the helmet
    exposing the bare head to impact, or at worst ejecting the helmet
    completely from the head.

    Very possibly better to rotate the helmet on the head than to rotate both
    head and helmet as a rigid unit, I'd have thought.

    --
    Mark, UK

    "One should as a rule respect public opinion in so far as is necessary to
    avoid starvation and to keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond
    this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyranny, and is likely to
    interfere with happiness in all kinds of ways."

  16. Mark McNeill said:

    Very possibly better to rotate the helmet on the head than to rotate both
    head and helmet as a rigid unit, I'd have thought.

    Until the strap crushes your windpipe? It might be better for the strap
    to incorporate a weak point so that it breaks rather than do that, but can
    you image the liability claims if it breaks under any other circumstance!

    Mike

  17. Response to Mike Causer:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Very possibly better to rotate the helmet on the head than to rotate both
    head and helmet as a rigid unit, I'd have thought.

    Until the strap crushes your windpipe?

    No, I think not quite as far as that would be best ;-) - perhaps unless
    the alternative is a greater risk of rotational injury to the brain or
    the neck. Not a nice "choice", but the risk of any helmet-related injury
    is sufficiently small not to keep me awake at nights, especially since I
    very rarely wear a helmet, and fall off very much more rarely.

    --
    Mark, UK

    "One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms."

  18. On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:33:04 GMT, [email hidden] (Steven)

    Quoted message said:

    I feel better for reading that.

    Apparently Kevin Mayne will be on GMTV tomorrow, head to head with a
    BMA spokesdoctor.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  19. Just zis Guy said:

    CTC press release:
    BMA helmet decision flawed say doctors
    [Generally good stuff, except]
    The issue of cycle helmets is highly contentious, with all of
    the UK’s major cycling organisations being strongly opposed to
    compulsory helmet-wearing.

    How can we say this when helmets are compulsory for most forms of
    cycle racing?

    Colin McKenzie

  20. Colin McKenzie said:


    Just zis Guy said:

    CTC press release:
    BMA helmet decision flawed say doctors
    [Generally good stuff, except]
    The issue of cycle helmets is highly contentious, with all of
    the UK’s major cycling organisations being strongly opposed to
    compulsory helmet-wearing.

    How can we say this when helmets are compulsory for most forms of
    cycle racing?

    That's a decision by the UCI, a political organisation in switserland,
    famous for it's well thought out and balanced reasoning

    --
    ---
    Marten Gerritsen

    INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
    www.m-gineering.nl

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