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needless

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Mountain Bikes
Published
29 June 2005
Last activity
3 July 2005
Original author
JD
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38
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  1. This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    Why? Because of all of the information avaialble online (for free) to
    prevent it: http://www.dreamride.com/safety.html

    There's even a boatload of reasons why Moab is not a good choice of
    destinations for mountain biking in Summer in AM-B:
    http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=moab+summer&num=10&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=alt.mountain-bike&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1998&as_maxd=29&as_maxm=6&as_maxy=2005&safe=off

    (yeah, cut and paste it)

    The article in the Salt Lake Tribune stated:

    ["Sounds to me like they did everything right - woke up that morning,
    had breakfast, then hit the trail," Lammert said.
    But what the California family could not have known was that
    Monday's temperatures would reach triple digits. "They finished their
    ride in the hottest part of the day on the hottest day of the year so
    far," Lammert said.]

    I don't agree with either of the above statements. They should have
    heeded all of the advice that's avaialble and not have planned a Moab
    bike vacation in Summer months to begin with. Also, 70 ounces of water
    is hardly enough to do a six hour ride with, even in cooler
    temperatures.

    They also should have known that the temperature was going to be high
    that day. There is such a thing as a weather forecast, after all.
    Even the country & western radio stations have weather info in S/E
    Utah.

    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day." I have never given anyone
    undue pressure to ride something or somewhere they are not comfortable
    with, or prepared for. This is why I harp on things that are
    preventable by using avaialble resources and common sense. Again,
    planning a Moab bike vacation in Summer months is ridiculous. Why?
    Again, the only hours the trails are safe from unbearable heat are the
    early morning hours and even then you must carry ridiculous amounts of
    water to be safe.

    "Drink before you are thirsty and eat before you are hungry."

    People may think of me as callous or insensitive for my statements from
    time to time, but there's a method to my madness. It's called
    persistent repetition and even the most thick-skulled eventually get
    the message. It's a needless and crying shame that that 15 year old
    girl lost her life. Her parents will have to live the rest of their
    lives with a terrible loss, though will always know that others will
    have learned from their mistakes.

    JD

  2. JD said:

    There's even a boatload of reasons why Moab is not a good choice of
    destinations for mountain biking in Summer in AM-B:
    http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_q=moab+summer&num=10&scoring=r&hl=en&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=alt.mountain-bike&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1998&as_maxd=29&as_maxm=6&as_maxy=2005&safe=off

    (yeah, cut and paste it)

    Ok, don't cut and paste it: http://tinyurl.com/b9zmo

    JD

  3. JD said:


    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.

  4. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JD said:


    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.


    Kinda? Now there's an understatement. I feel bad for her parents but they
    should have known better. It's heartbreaking to imagine the grief they will
    experience for the rest of their lives.

    CG

  5. JD said:


    "Sounds to me like they did everything right - woke up that morning,
    had breakfast, then hit the trail," Lammert said.

    This is a truly bizarre statement. What does getting up and having
    breakfast have to do being safe in the desert?

    Quoted message said:

    But what the California family could not have known was that
    Monday's temperatures would reach triple digits. "They finished their
    ride in the hottest part of the day on the hottest day of the year so
    far," Lammert said.

    They damn well should have known what the expected temperature was
    going to be! Maybe they were too engrossed in their wheaties or
    something to check the weather report.

    Quoted message said:

    even the most thick-skulled eventually get the message.

    I wouldn't count on that, bro.

    CC

  6. JD said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    AND STUPID!

    Sh!t, 70oz of water will last me 40 minutes tops here on the east when
    it's 94F. It's a desert for god's sake and you are riding it in the
    summer! Last I heard there was global warming, not cooling.

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  7. Ride-A-Lot said:
    JD said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    AND STUPID!

    Sh!t, 70oz of water will last me 40 minutes tops here on the east when
    it's 94F. It's a desert for god's sake and you are riding it in the
    summer! Last I heard there was global warming, not cooling.

    OK, let's stop piling on here.

    I've met and ridden with the father of this poor child. He is NOT some
    inexperienced doof who rolled in to Moab ("Mobe"😉 and rented bikes for the
    entire family. They had done MANY such rides and other activities together
    in similar conditions.

    His write-up of this tragic event on his website make clear that she had
    access to much more than just the water on her back. (I'm not going to post
    a link but it's right there on "MTBRetards" as someone calls it.)

    If it's just some anonymous family then yeah, it's easy to call 'em stupid
    or negligent or whatever. When you know the person and read how many others
    know him and attest to his character and skill, then it's a bit different.
    I suspect that this girl had some underlying problem that arose that sad
    day; no one left her to just fend for herself with 70 oz. of water.

    Give 'em some peace, OK?

    Bill S.

  8. "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote >

    Quoted message said:

    Give 'em some peace, OK?

    Bill S.


    OK

    CG

  9. "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote (SNIP)

    Quoted message said:


    Oh man, it was Ogre!?!?!?!? He hasn't posted here in a long time, but I
    remember him well. My heart goes out to him and his family.

  10. I can, it beats 90 degress and 90% + humidity here this
    summer.

  11. I drink 128 oz during 7.5 hours unloading a semi box by
    box cart by cart. And can't forget 12 oz soda during lunch. At the
    temps and humidity here on a ride for an hour I put away 100 oz + one
    32 oz water bottle. I do [censored] alot as much as I ride alot in summer.

  12. Bill Sornson said:
    Ride-A-Lot said:
    JD said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    AND STUPID!

    Sh!t, 70oz of water will last me 40 minutes tops here on the east when
    it's 94F. It's a desert for god's sake and you are riding it in the
    summer! Last I heard there was global warming, not cooling.

    OK, let's stop piling on here.

    I've met and ridden with the father of this poor child. He is NOT some
    inexperienced doof who rolled in to Moab ("Mobe"😉 and rented bikes for the
    entire family. They had done MANY such rides and other activities together
    in similar conditions.

    His write-up of this tragic event on his website make clear that she had
    access to much more than just the water on her back. (I'm not going to post
    a link but it's right there on "MTBRetards" as someone calls it.)

    If it's just some anonymous family then yeah, it's easy to call 'em stupid
    or negligent or whatever. When you know the person and read how many others
    know him and attest to his character and skill, then it's a bit different.
    I suspect that this girl had some underlying problem that arose that sad
    day; no one left her to just fend for herself with 70 oz. of water.

    Give 'em some peace, OK?

    Bill S.

    OK. Now I really feel bad.

    --
    o-o-o-o Ride-A-Lot o-o-o-o
    www.schnauzers.ws

  13. Ride-A-Lot said:
    Bill Sornson said:
    Ride-A-Lot said:

    JD wrote:

    > This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss
    >

    AND STUPID!

    Sh!t, 70oz of water will last me 40 minutes tops here on the east
    when it's 94F. It's a desert for god's sake and you are riding it
    in the summer! Last I heard there was global warming, not cooling.

    OK, let's stop piling on here.

    I've met and ridden with the father of this poor child. He is NOT
    some inexperienced doof who rolled in to Moab ("Mobe"😉 and rented
    bikes for the entire family. They had done MANY such rides and
    other activities together in similar conditions.

    His write-up of this tragic event on his website make clear that she
    had access to much more than just the water on her back. (I'm not
    going to post a link but it's right there on "MTBRetards" as someone
    calls it.) If it's just some anonymous family then yeah, it's easy to
    call 'em
    stupid or negligent or whatever. When you know the person and read
    how many others know him and attest to his character and skill, then
    it's a bit different. I suspect that this girl had some underlying
    problem that arose that sad day; no one left her to just fend for
    herself with 70 oz. of water. Give 'em some peace, OK?

    Bill S.

    OK. Now I really feel bad.

    My rantlet was directed at the "Universal You", not /you/.

  14. Bill Sornson said:


    All I'm saying is don't judge someone you don't even know. It's just
    /possible/ that the newspaper account (link provided in OP) was not totally
    accurate or complete. Dennis' story fills in more details.

    My original comments were criticism of the newspaper account itself, of
    course. The writer of the article clearly had no clue as to what "doing
    everything right" meant.

    Quoted message said:

    It's perfectly valid to point to this as a lesson for anyone -- even /more
    so/ because this WASN'T an inexperienced bunch of clueless newbies. I'd
    just like to see the labeling and name-calling kept to a minimum in this
    particular case.

    Fully agreed, and I hope you feel my comments reflected the respect and
    sympathy I actually feel. I know Jer doesn't need me to defend his
    point of view, so I'm not going to even try.

    CC

  15. Corvus Corvax said:
    Bill Sornson said:

    All I'm saying is don't judge someone you don't even know. It's just
    /possible/ that the newspaper account (link provided in OP) was not totally
    accurate or complete. Dennis' story fills in more details.

    My original comments were criticism of the newspaper account itself, of
    course. The writer of the article clearly had no clue as to what "doing
    everything right" meant.

    Quoted message said:

    It's perfectly valid to point to this as a lesson for anyone -- even /more
    so/ because this WASN'T an inexperienced bunch of clueless newbies. I'd
    just like to see the labeling and name-calling kept to a minimum in this
    particular case.

    Fully agreed, and I hope you feel my comments reflected the respect and
    sympathy I actually feel. I know Jer doesn't need me to defend his
    point of view, so I'm not going to even try.

    CC

    I'm almost overcome by how sad this is. I can't imagine how Dennis must
    feel. My god.

    I hope this can somehow be a positive thing for someone one day.

    Be careful out there everyone.

    Matt

  16. Corvus Corvax said:
    Bill Sornson said:


    All I'm saying is don't judge someone you don't even know. It's just
    /possible/ that the newspaper account (link provided in OP) was not
    totally accurate or complete. Dennis' story fills in more details.

    My original comments were criticism of the newspaper account itself,
    of course. The writer of the article clearly had no clue as to what
    "doing everything right" meant.

    Agreed, totally.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It's perfectly valid to point to this as a lesson for anyone -- even
    /more so/ because this WASN'T an inexperienced bunch of clueless
    newbies. I'd just like to see the labeling and name-calling kept to
    a minimum in this particular case.

    Fully agreed, and I hope you feel my comments reflected the respect
    and sympathy I actually feel. I know Jer doesn't need me to defend his
    point of view, so I'm not going to even try.

    Absolutely I got that you feel nothing but sorrow and anguish for the
    family; and, re-reading JD's post, /he/ said nothing disrepectful or even
    unsympathetic either. (I don't hang in MTBR, but his comments there /were/
    a bit more harsh from what I saw. Perhaps if he or anyone else had actually
    MET Dennis, then they'd be a bit more gentle.)

    It was in the follow-ups to the OP that people were, understandably, quick
    to judge. It wasn't quite as black & white as first appeared; that's all
    I'm saying (and taking my sweet time doing it, too!)...

    Bill

  17. Quoted message said:

    People may think of me as callous or insensitive for my statements from
    time to time, but there's a method to my madness.

    Yes you can be both, but I agree. A little common sense goes very far. Still
    I feel terrible for her parents, I would hate to live my life under that
    cloud.

  18. "Chris Glidden" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:zlBwe.3693$Qo.2394@fed1read01...

    Quoted message said:


    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JD said:


    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.


    Kinda? Now there's an understatement. I feel bad for her parents but


    they

    Quoted message said:

    should have known better. It's heartbreaking to imagine the grief they


    will

    Quoted message said:

    experience for the rest of their lives.

    70 oz is nothing. I went through 100 oz on my last ride with JD, it was
    only 80 degrees out and we were only out for 4 hours.

    I got extremely lucky surviving a couple of 110 degree plus motorcycle races
    in my youth but the only reason I got into trouble in the first place was
    due to me ignoring adult advice because of teenage obstinance.

    I've done very few 100+ mtn bike rides and when I do they are quite short.

    Greg

  19. Chris Glidden said:

    "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote (SNIP)

    Oh man, it was Ogre!?!?!?!? He hasn't posted here in a long time, but I
    remember him well. My heart goes out to him and his family.


    Ohhhh... SOB now I remember him too and really wish I hadn't read this
    thread. I can't imagine loosing a loved one doing something you love so
    much.

    This is too sad for any more words from me.

    --
    Slack

  20. "Slack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Chris Glidden said:

    "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote (SNIP)

    Oh man, it was Ogre!?!?!?!? He hasn't posted here in a long time, but I
    remember him well. My heart goes out to him and his family.


    Ohhhh... SOB now I remember him too and really wish I hadn't read this
    thread. I can't imagine loosing a loved one doing something you love so
    much.

    This is too sad for any more words from me.

    It is really sad. Now having read Ogre's account it's even sadder. But I
    agree with Corvus' assesment and I think they should have turned around
    early.

    Greg

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