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Mountain Bikes
Published
29 June 2005
Last activity
3 July 2005
Original author
JD
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  1. "G.T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Slack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Chris Glidden said:

    "Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote (SNIP)

    Oh man, it was Ogre!?!?!?!? He hasn't posted here in a long time, but
    I
    remember him well. My heart goes out to him and his family.


    Ohhhh... SOB now I remember him too and really wish I hadn't read this
    thread. I can't imagine loosing a loved one doing something you love so
    much.

    This is too sad for any more words from me.

    It is really sad. Now having read Ogre's account it's even sadder. But I
    agree with Corvus' assesment and I think they should have turned around
    early.

    Greg


    Shoulda, coulda, woulda

  2. JD said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    I was about to cut-and-paste the same quote from the article that you did.

    June 22, the second day of Summer, Moab. It's not going to get hot???
    Though I guess low 100's isn't all THAT hot if you're acclimatized. The
    wildland firefighters in the other corner of the state wouldn't even notice.

    But why should Porc Rim take a full day? (How's that for callous? I'm a
    bit ashamed.)

    Moab is fun partly because it can kill you if you screw up. Tragedies
    like this make one's own successful experiences richer. For what that's
    worth.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    "We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
    a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
    them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
    could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
    instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

  3. Quoted message said:


    JD said:

    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.

    I did the Porc Rim circuit on June 18 a couple years ago. I was
    acclimatized to the heat, and it only got up to the mid-90's that day.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    "We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
    a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
    them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
    could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
    instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

  4. Bill Sornson said:

    OK, let's stop piling on here.

    I've met and ridden with the father of this poor child.

    Quoted message said:

    Give 'em some peace, OK?

    Bill S.

    Okay. Now I'm REALLY ashamed for my earlier comment.

    My sympathies to all involved.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    "We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
    a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
    them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
    could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
    instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

  5. Corvus Corvax said:


    I have a fair amount of experience with Moab in the summer: I have
    myself done Porc Rim in late May. (I used up the last of my water just
    as I arrived at where I expected our shuttle to be, only to find out we
    had a several-mile road ride in the blazing heat to get to the car. I
    was in bad shape by the time we finished.) I have done nine days in a
    canoe on the Green River in late June. I have hiked the canyon trails
    off Island in the Sky in June. So I think I can speak from experience
    here. The desert is brutally unforgiving in these conditions. People
    who do the wrong thing die.

    These are perfectly survivable conditions, if one is prepared.

    Quoted message said:

    Here is how I read the facts of the situation:

    - They started too late, reaching the top of the climb at 10 A.M. I
    have done
    this climb. Even at the slow pace described, this timing means they
    were at
    the trailhead long, long after sunrise.

    When I did the town-Rim-town ride 2 years ago, my timing was similar.
    Temps were a few degress lower. IIRC, I had 156 oz of hyrdation with me,
    rationed it reasonably, and drained it five (road) miles from town. I
    also had hours of hard exercise in the Summer heat behind me.

    Quoted message said:

    - The fact that he had to carry the bikes for them up the climb should
    have
    been a loud warning bell. At this point, they still had the option to
    turn
    around and go back the way they came. The kids were in over their
    heads, but
    this danger sign was ignored.

    Yes. This is the time you choose to ride no further than the OH WOW
    overlook (if that), then ride DOWNHILL back to the trailhead or Moab.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    "We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
    a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
    them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
    could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
    instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

  6. Damn sad story.
    Steve.

  7. Quoted message said:
    JD said:


    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.

    Sounds downright criminal

  8. Chris Glidden said:


    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    JD said:


    Almost everyone who has ridden with me knows one of my favorite
    statements when encountering heinous derring-do obstacles or
    conditions, "Live to ride another day."

    My brother's was "If you can't ride it, walk it - no shame in walking
    it."

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.


    I feel bad for her parents but they
    should have known better.

    CG

    Damn right

  9. Corvus Corvax said:


    JD said:


    "Sounds to me like they did everything right - woke up that morning,
    had breakfast, then hit the trail," Lammert said.

    This is a truly bizarre statement. What does getting up and having
    breakfast have to do being safe in the desert?

    Quoted message said:

    But what the California family could not have known was that
    Monday's temperatures would reach triple digits. "They finished their
    ride in the hottest part of the day on the hottest day of the year so
    far," Lammert said.

    They damn well should have known what the expected temperature was
    going to be! Maybe they were too engrossed in their wheaties or
    something to check the weather report.

    Quoted message said:

    even the most thick-skulled eventually get the message.

    I wouldn't count on that, bro.

    CC

    They are going to have to live with it for a long time

  10. Corvus Corvax said:
    JD said:

    even the most thick-skulled eventually get the message.

    I wouldn't count on that, bro.

    I really don't count on it, but can only hope some do eventually get
    it.

    Having been a professional mountain bike guide in the Moab area, I
    learned that even adults need to be told to drink up in the desert if
    they are not doing so. I've actually had to check water levels in
    camelbaks to make sure certain clients were drinking enough. This
    should, without say, be common practice if you bring a kid out anywhere
    in the wilderness.

    The fact that some people here have met this person who chose to bring
    their family to Moab to bike in Summer does not change the mistakes
    they made. Like Chris said, "coulda, shoulda, woulda" and we could go
    on for days about those factors, but it doesn't change what happened.
    However, the coulda shoulda wouldas can change the outcome of future
    events. If the harsh reality of what happened is what it takes to
    prevent others from going trough an ordeal like this, then so be it.
    No matter how much people say, "drop it", or whatever, it will be
    brought up from time to time to remind those who need reminding and
    will prevent other incidents like this from occuring.

    People may like to sit back and call people like Lee Bridgers and me
    curmudgeons and the like, however our messages about the desert are
    clear. Why do we harp on etiquette and safety? Because we care about
    people, not about being politically correct and sugarcoating everything
    so the "censors" and pc thugs of this World can cry "foul". I actually
    find it sad that some people have called Lee's notions about desert
    safety (in reviews of his book) over the top and bordering on paranoid.
    If Lee and I didn't care, Lee would never have included any info about
    desert etiquette and safety in his book or website and I would never
    have repeatedly harped about not taking a bike vacation in Moab during
    the Summer and the reasons why.

    JD

  11. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Corvus Corvax said:
    JD said:

    even the most thick-skulled eventually get the message.

    I wouldn't count on that, bro.

    I really don't count on it, but can only hope some do eventually get
    it.

    Having been a professional mountain bike guide in the Moab area, I
    learned that even adults need to be told to drink up in the desert if
    they are not doing so. I've actually had to check water levels in
    camelbaks to make sure certain clients were drinking enough. This
    should, without say, be common practice if you bring a kid out anywhere
    in the wilderness.

    The fact that some people here have met this person who chose to bring
    their family to Moab to bike in Summer does not change the mistakes
    they made. Like Chris said, "coulda, shoulda, woulda" and we could go
    on for days about those factors, but it doesn't change what happened.
    However, the coulda shoulda wouldas can change the outcome of future
    events. If the harsh reality of what happened is what it takes to
    prevent others from going trough an ordeal like this, then so be it.
    No matter how much people say, "drop it", or whatever, it will be
    brought up from time to time to remind those who need reminding and
    will prevent other incidents like this from occuring.

    People may like to sit back and call people like Lee Bridgers and me
    curmudgeons and the like, however our messages about the desert are
    clear. Why do we harp on etiquette and safety? Because we care about
    people, not about being politically correct and sugarcoating everything
    so the "censors" and pc thugs of this World can cry "foul". I actually
    find it sad that some people have called Lee's notions about desert
    safety (in reviews of his book) over the top and bordering on paranoid.
    If Lee and I didn't care, Lee would never have included any info about
    desert etiquette and safety in his book or website and I would never
    have repeatedly harped about not taking a bike vacation in Moab during
    the Summer and the reasons why.

    JD


    Well said brother.

    CG

  12. Quoted message said:

    I can't even imagine riding in the desert in the middle of summer.
    Sounds kinda stupid.

    E.P.

    I can't imagine riding back east where the humidity is 95% and T=90+F. You
    sweat a lot more with no cooling effect.

    Riding in the high heat is like anything else, done in moderation it's safe
    unless you're a masochist like myself.

    yeah baby, bring on the 1teens so I can ride on deserted trails.

    Gary

  13. "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    Why? Because of all of the information avaialble online (for free) to
    prevent it: http://www.dreamride.com/safety.html>
    JD


    Good stuff, Jerry. And as you know from having come on our Idaho annual amb
    epics, dehydration is always the unseen guest on every ride. It reared its
    ugly head when I was helping B0B stay alive and drag his sorry butt out to
    the Chinook campground. I warn, warn, warn like an old Jewish mamma and
    people still try to go blissfuly presumptous and utterly unprepared. And
    we're riding above 6000' at temperatures barely into the 80's, let alone 110
    on Moab rock .

    Even last summer's ride (sorry you couldn't make it), had 2 very spectacular
    teen athletes hook up with us, and they only brought one water bottle
    apiece. I gave them both 40 ozs of sports drink, and told them it was
    still dicey. Thankfully, the big long climb up to Duck Lake convinced them
    to turn back and go ride the chair lifts.

    About 20 miles into it, we were sharing water with those who either needed
    more or hadn't brought enough. 4 of us did a bonus ride at the end of the
    epic, and we *did* run out of water. Thanks to Penny's friend cutie-pie who
    found a pump handle out at some old cabin that got us going again.

    CDB

    It's about knowing what it takes to make it happen, and not presuming you
    can handle it after it's too late.

  14. Paladin said:

    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    Why? Because of all of the information avaialble online (for free) to
    prevent it: http://www.dreamride.com/safety.html>
    JD


    Good stuff, Jerry. And as you know from having come on our Idaho
    annual amb epics, dehydration is always the unseen guest on every
    ride. It reared its ugly head when I was helping B0B stay alive and
    drag his sorry butt out to the Chinook campground. I warn, warn,
    warn like an old Jewish mamma and people still try to go blissfuly
    presumptous and utterly unprepared. And we're riding above 6000' at
    temperatures barely into the 80's, let alone 110 on Moab rock .

    Even last summer's ride (sorry you couldn't make it), had 2 very
    spectacular teen athletes hook up with us, and they only brought one
    water bottle apiece. I gave them both 40 ozs of sports drink, and
    told them it was still dicey. Thankfully, the big long climb up to
    Duck Lake convinced them to turn back and go ride the chair lifts.

    About 20 miles into it, we were sharing water with those who either
    needed more or hadn't brought enough. 4 of us did a bonus ride at
    the end of the epic, and we *did* run out of water. Thanks to
    Penny's friend cutie-pie who found a pump handle out at some old
    cabin that got us going again.
    CDB

    It's about knowing what it takes to make it happen, and not presuming
    you can handle it after it's too late.

    Another difference is that we had water along the way, should it have come
    to that. I'm not doing these again without making sure someone's carrying a
    katadyn.

    Penny

  15. "small change" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Paladin said:

    "JD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    This was completely needless: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2816240?rss

    Why? Because of all of the information avaialble online (for free) to
    prevent it: http://www.dreamride.com/safety.html>
    JD


    Good stuff, Jerry. And as you know from having come on our Idaho
    annual amb epics, dehydration is always the unseen guest on every
    ride. It reared its ugly head when I was helping B0B stay alive and
    drag his sorry butt out to the Chinook campground. I warn, warn,
    warn like an old Jewish mamma and people still try to go blissfuly
    presumptous and utterly unprepared. And we're riding above 6000' at
    temperatures barely into the 80's, let alone 110 on Moab rock .

    Even last summer's ride (sorry you couldn't make it), had 2 very
    spectacular teen athletes hook up with us, and they only brought one
    water bottle apiece. I gave them both 40 ozs of sports drink, and
    told them it was still dicey. Thankfully, the big long climb up to
    Duck Lake convinced them to turn back and go ride the chair lifts.

    About 20 miles into it, we were sharing water with those who either
    needed more or hadn't brought enough. 4 of us did a bonus ride at
    the end of the epic, and we *did* run out of water. Thanks to
    Penny's friend cutie-pie who found a pump handle out at some old
    cabin that got us going again.
    CDB

    It's about knowing what it takes to make it happen, and not presuming
    you can handle it after it's too late.

    Another difference is that we had water along the way, should it have come
    to that. I'm not doing these again without making sure someone's carrying
    a katadyn.

    Penny

    Yep, we're counting on you for that filter. Might scout out our itinerary
    this weekend.

    CB

    Quoted message said:
  16. small change said:


    Another difference is that we had water along the way, should it have come
    to that. I'm not doing these again without making sure someone's carrying a
    katadyn.

    Comes to that, screw the giardia. Drink up.

    CC
    (Katadyn owner)

  17. Corvus Corvax said:


    small change said:

    Another difference is that we had water along the way, should it have come
    to that. I'm not doing these again without making sure someone's carrying a
    katadyn.

    Comes to that, screw the giardia. Drink up.

    CC
    (Katadyn owner)

    I've made that decision once and got away with it.
    I'd do it again but I sure hope I never have to.

    Matt

  18. MattB said:
    Corvus Corvax said:

    Comes to that, screw the giardia. Drink up.

    CC
    (Katadyn owner)

    I've made that decision once and got away with it.
    I'd do it again but I sure hope I never have to.

    Matt

    If you're Aron Ralston, guzzle three liters from a rancid pool with a
    dead raven floating in it.

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
    "We should not march into Baghdad. ... Assigning young soldiers to
    a fruitless hunt for a securely entrenched dictator and condemning
    them to fight in what would be an unwinnable urban guerilla war, it
    could only plunge that part of the world into ever greater
    instability." George Bush Sr. in his 1998 book "A World Transformed"

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