Saddle height puzzle

Pete said:

I'm a middle-aged male recreational road bike rider. I am hoping to sollicit
some comments on the peculiarities of my saddle height puzzle. I already
know every formula and rule of thumb out there, but I'm starting to think I
don't fit any formula. I'm returning to cycling after many years.

My puzzle is as follows. Any comments or help would be welcome.

I have proportionally long femurs, but relatively small feet. I was fitted
to my bike by a certified coach. This resulted in a saddle which is almost
bang on the height it should be using the inseam X .883 formula, even though
the formula was not used. The fitting was strictly visual, with me on the
bike and the bike up on a trainer. Now, when I pedal, it feels Ok, and I
don't rock my hips. But, I've noticed that in order to do this, I end up
pedalling significantly toes down, with my heel a good inch and half, two
inches higher, maybe. It's toes down all around the pedal stroke, except my
foot levels off a bit at around 3 o'clock.

What I'm also finding is that as I go along not thinking too much about the
pedalling, I seem to go into a flat pedalling style (ie. flat at the bottom
of the stroke). When I do so, I end up extending my legs pretty straight at
the bottom of the stroke, and I'm pretty close to rocking my hips at that
point. It feels like my anatomy prefers the flat style.

I like the higher position because it feels like it opens me up more, but, I
also feel it may be a little too high, despite the coach's fitting session.

I know, I know. Just try lower and see. But I would appreciate some comment
on this problem.

George

I couldn't tell unless I saw you ride. Solicit the opinion of
experienced cyclists observing you ride away from them. You can also
observe other cyclists as they ride away from you to get a feel for how
it should be. In this, everyone is the same, and a ill-adjusted saddle
is obvious to all. At the bottom of the stroke your legs should not be
locked or stretched, but slightly flexed. Don't point your toes while
adjusting the saddle, just relax and let your feet turn naturally. It
may take a couple of rides with minor adjustments of height to get
things right -- you will know.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Pete (or George) wrote...

Quoted message said:

I'm a middle-aged male recreational road bike rider. I am hoping to

sollicit

Quoted message said:

some comments on the peculiarities of my saddle height puzzle. I already
know every formula and rule of thumb out there, but I'm starting to think

I

Quoted message said:

don't fit any formula. I'm returning to cycling after many years.

My puzzle is as follows. Any comments or help would be welcome.

I have proportionally long femurs, but relatively small feet. I was fitted
to my bike by a certified coach. This resulted in a saddle which is almost
bang on the height it should be using the inseam X .883 formula, even

though

Quoted message said:

the formula was not used. The fitting was strictly visual, with me on the
bike and the bike up on a trainer. Now, when I pedal, it feels Ok, and I
don't rock my hips. But, I've noticed that in order to do this, I end up
pedalling significantly toes down, with my heel a good inch and half, two
inches higher, maybe. It's toes down all around the pedal stroke, except

my

Quoted message said:

foot levels off a bit at around 3 o'clock.

What I'm also finding is that as I go along not thinking too much about

the

Quoted message said:

pedalling, I seem to go into a flat pedalling style (ie. flat at the

bottom

Quoted message said:

of the stroke). When I do so, I end up extending my legs pretty straight

at

Quoted message said:

the bottom of the stroke, and I'm pretty close to rocking my hips at that
point. It feels like my anatomy prefers the flat style.

I like the higher position because it feels like it opens me up more, but,

I

Quoted message said:

also feel it may be a little too high, despite the coach's fitting

session.

Quoted message said:

I know, I know. Just try lower and see. But I would appreciate some

comment

Quoted message said:

on this problem.

George

There is no magic involved. And no right or wrong. Just keep changing the
height of the saddle (by a centimeter or so each time) and riding a few
hundred miles at each height. If it feels too high, lower it and if it feel
too low, raise it.

Thanks Bob, and Alfred.

I have experimented quite a bit already. With the higher saddle, I can feel
the extra power, but it's a jerkier pedalling style. With the lower saddle
(such as adjusted by the heel on pedal method), it's makes for much
smoother, almost velvety spinning, and somehow, better control of the bike.
Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter. There's also much less pressure
on the crotch with the lower saddle. I think I may be willing to sacrifice a
little power for that :-)

Pierre-George

"Bob Wheeler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pete said:

I'm a middle-aged male recreational road bike rider. I am hoping to
sollicit some comments on the peculiarities of my saddle height puzzle. I
already know every formula and rule of thumb out there, but I'm starting
to think I don't fit any formula. I'm returning to cycling after many
years.

My puzzle is as follows. Any comments or help would be welcome.

I have proportionally long femurs, but relatively small feet. I was
fitted to my bike by a certified coach. This resulted in a saddle which
is almost bang on the height it should be using the inseam X .883
formula, even though the formula was not used. The fitting was strictly
visual, with me on the bike and the bike up on a trainer. Now, when I
pedal, it feels Ok, and I don't rock my hips. But, I've noticed that in
order to do this, I end up pedalling significantly toes down, with my
heel a good inch and half, two inches higher, maybe. It's toes down all
around the pedal stroke, except my foot levels off a bit at around 3
o'clock.

What I'm also finding is that as I go along not thinking too much about
the pedalling, I seem to go into a flat pedalling style (ie. flat at the
bottom of the stroke). When I do so, I end up extending my legs pretty
straight at the bottom of the stroke, and I'm pretty close to rocking my
hips at that point. It feels like my anatomy prefers the flat style.

I like the higher position because it feels like it opens me up more,
but, I also feel it may be a little too high, despite the coach's fitting
session.

I know, I know. Just try lower and see. But I would appreciate some
comment on this problem.

George

I couldn't tell unless I saw you ride. Solicit the opinion of experienced
cyclists observing you ride away from them. You can also observe other
cyclists as they ride away from you to get a feel for how it should be. In
this, everyone is the same, and a ill-adjusted saddle is obvious to all.
At the bottom of the stroke your legs should not be locked or stretched,
but slightly flexed. Don't point your toes while adjusting the saddle,
just relax and let your feet turn naturally. It may take a couple of rides
with minor adjustments of height to get things right -- you will know.

--
Bob Wheeler --- http://www.bobwheeler.com/
ECHIP, Inc. ---
Randomness comes in bunches.

Pete top-posted:

Quoted message said:

Thanks Bob, and Alfred.

I have experimented quite a bit already. With the higher saddle, I
can feel the extra power, but it's a jerkier pedalling style. With
the lower saddle (such as adjusted by the heel on pedal method), it's
makes for much smoother, almost velvety spinning, and somehow, better
control of the bike. Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter.
There's also much less pressure on the crotch with the lower saddle.
I think I may be willing to sacrifice a little power for that :-)

You don't say how MUCH you're moving the saddle up & down, but take note of
the relative fore/aft position, too. (Down also means forward a bit; up
back.)

Sounds like you're pretty darned close to the sweet spot! (Lower it a
little AND move it back a tad?)

About due to start tweaking mine a little, too (again)... Bill

Pete said:

The fitting was strictly visual, with me on the bike and the bike up on a trainer.

I hope there you were actually pedaling and discussing how it felt more
so than how it looked to the "fitter."

Quoted message said:

Now, when I pedal, it feels Ok, and I don't rock my hips. But, I've noticed that in order to do this, I end up pedalling significantly toes down, <snip> as I go along not thinking too much about the pedalling, I seem to go into a flat pedalling style (ie. flat at the bottom of the stroke).

How many total miles have you ridden with the saddle where it is? It
may be that you ARE thinking too much. If you haven't ridden much
lately, it may take some time to feel right on the bike, and develop a
smooth cadence.

As I see it, you have two choices:

1) Tough it out with the fit the way it is and see if you adapt to it.

2) Lower the saddle by a 5 to 10mm, see how that feels, and either
leave it lower or gradually get back to where you are now.

Watch for signs of knee pain. Pain at the front of the knee can be due
to a too low saddle, and pain in the back of the knee my be caused by
over-extention (saddle too high).

Also make sure the saddle is within a degree or two of dead level.

IMO, the "raise the saddle 'til you rock, and then lower it a bit"
system is better than any of the formulas.

Art Harris

Pete said:

Thanks Bob, and Alfred.

I have experimented quite a bit already. With the higher saddle, I can feel
the extra power, but it's a jerkier pedalling style. With the lower saddle
(such as adjusted by the heel on pedal method), it's makes for much
smoother, almost velvety spinning, and somehow, better control of the bike.
Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter. There's also much less pressure
on the crotch with the lower saddle. I think I may be willing to sacrifice a
little power for that :-)

That's the thing. There's no perfect position, it's all trade offs. I
prefer a long flat saddle because I slide back to increase the effective
height and forward to lower it -- back to climb, forward to sprint. The
other thing is that over time, and perhaps at different times of the
year, preferences change.

"Bill Sornson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pete top-posted:

Quoted message said:

Thanks Bob, and Alfred.

I have experimented quite a bit already. With the higher saddle, I
can feel the extra power, but it's a jerkier pedalling style. With
the lower saddle (such as adjusted by the heel on pedal method), it's
makes for much smoother, almost velvety spinning, and somehow, better
control of the bike. Right now, I'm leaning towards the latter.
There's also much less pressure on the crotch with the lower saddle.
I think I may be willing to sacrifice a little power for that :-)

You don't say how MUCH you're moving the saddle up & down, but take note
of the relative fore/aft position, too. (Down also means forward a bit;
up back.)

Sounds like you're pretty darned close to the sweet spot! (Lower it a
little AND move it back a tad?)

About due to start tweaking mine a little, too (again)... Bill

Yup. I find I like my saddle unusually far back - usually as far as
possible thanks to the length of my legs. Also the ideal height varies. If
I'm doing rough, offroad trails then I lower the seat. On road and I raise
it. The simplest reason is a lower centre of gravity and greater agility is
more important than forward velocity.

Aside: In the crazy things one see's file:

On a 34 C day that feels like 41C with an AQI reaching into the 50's
[Poor], oil breaking US $60/barrel. I see a bright yellow Hummer with black
trim.

--
'Custom adapts itself to expediency.'
-tacitus

Thanks for this productive discussion.

Yes, it was a full-blown professional fitting, but I realize there's lots of
possible variations with things like saddle height. This is why I'm
experimenting on my own, because I'm finding that pedaling while being
fitted up on the trainer is totally different than actually riding for a
while. My thinking is a cm lower and a little back will do the trick for
now, as suggested by one of you. That's the way I rode for 30-some years
(I'm reconditioning now after a long period of illness), so I guess my body
is just accustomed to it better than the higher saddle. Either way, I have
my bars at saddle height, so that's not a factor.
Pierre-George

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Pete said:

The fitting was strictly visual, with me on the bike and the bike up on a
trainer.

I hope there you were actually pedaling and discussing how it felt more
so than how it looked to the "fitter."

Quoted message said:

Now, when I pedal, it feels Ok, and I don't rock my hips. But, I've
noticed that in order to do this, I end up pedalling significantly toes
down, <snip> as I go along not thinking too much about the pedalling, I
seem to go into a flat pedalling style (ie. flat at the bottom of the
stroke).

How many total miles have you ridden with the saddle where it is? It
may be that you ARE thinking too much. If you haven't ridden much
lately, it may take some time to feel right on the bike, and develop a
smooth cadence.

As I see it, you have two choices:

1) Tough it out with the fit the way it is and see if you adapt to it.

2) Lower the saddle by a 5 to 10mm, see how that feels, and either
leave it lower or gradually get back to where you are now.

Watch for signs of knee pain. Pain at the front of the knee can be due
to a too low saddle, and pain in the back of the knee my be caused by
over-extention (saddle too high).

Also make sure the saddle is within a degree or two of dead level.

IMO, the "raise the saddle 'til you rock, and then lower it a bit"
system is better than any of the formulas.

Art Harris

"Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks for this productive discussion.

Yes, it was a full-blown professional fitting, but I realize there's lots
of possible variations with things like saddle height. This is why I'm
experimenting on my own, because I'm finding that pedaling while being
fitted up on the trainer is totally different than actually riding for a
while.

Truth. I find an ever so slight tilt forward from horizontal - a tricky
spot to find - to keep the forward part of my anatomy unstressed but not so
far that the rear part gets stressed.

--
'They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety' -benjamin franklin

lowkey said:

Truth. I find an ever so slight tilt forward from horizontal - a tricky
spot to find - to keep the forward part of my anatomy unstressed but not so
far that the rear part gets stressed.

I recently changed my seat tilt (in my case, back from horizontal) by
just a hair and I've been amazed at the difference -- amazed! I never
realized how much energy I spent (a) with my arms, supporting my
weight, (b) with my legs, frequently pushing my butt back, and even (c)
with my lower back, trying to keep weight off my arms. All those areas
are much less sore now when I finish a ride.

I had avoided making any changes because my LBS spent a lot of time on
my fit when I bought the bike and I didn't want to mess with it. It
was darned near perfect, but my butt would slide forward on the seat
ever so slowly during a ride. Finally I got the nerve to change the
tilt by a single click and voila -- new bike!

Now that I know what a proper fit feels like, hopefully I won't let the
same thing happen again. It's a whole new world...

-JR

Welcome to the world of bike saddle adjustment tinkering. Your life will
never be the same again :-)

I think back vs forward tilt vs no tilt depends a lot on individual anatomy,
and also, on the shape of the saddle itself once you're sitting on it.

"SlowRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

lowkey said:

Truth. I find an ever so slight tilt forward from horizontal - a tricky
spot to find - to keep the forward part of my anatomy unstressed but not
so
far that the rear part gets stressed.

I recently changed my seat tilt (in my case, back from horizontal) by
just a hair and I've been amazed at the difference -- amazed! I never
realized how much energy I spent (a) with my arms, supporting my
weight, (b) with my legs, frequently pushing my butt back, and even (c)
with my lower back, trying to keep weight off my arms. All those areas
are much less sore now when I finish a ride.

I had avoided making any changes because my LBS spent a lot of time on
my fit when I bought the bike and I didn't want to mess with it. It
was darned near perfect, but my butt would slide forward on the seat
ever so slowly during a ride. Finally I got the nerve to change the
tilt by a single click and voila -- new bike!

Now that I know what a proper fit feels like, hopefully I won't let the
same thing happen again. It's a whole new world...

-JR

SlowRider said:

I recently changed my seat tilt (in my case, back from horizontal) by
just a hair and I've been amazed at the difference -- amazed! I never
realized how much energy I spent (a) with my arms, supporting my
weight, (b) with my legs, frequently pushing my butt back, and even
(c) with my lower back, trying to keep weight off my arms. All those
areas are much less sore now when I finish a ride.

I had avoided making any changes because my LBS spent a lot of time on
my fit when I bought the bike and I didn't want to mess with it. It
was darned near perfect, but my butt would slide forward on the seat
ever so slowly during a ride. Finally I got the nerve to change the
tilt by a single click and voila -- new bike!

Now that I know what a proper fit feels like, hopefully I won't let
the same thing happen again. It's a whole new world...

Enjoy it while it lasts. <eg>

Temporary bliss is better that permanent blisters (something to say), BS

I ended up using a lower position, slightly farther back, and I moved my SPD
cleats a little further back on the shoe. That seems to work best.
Pete