Re: Restricting Carbs Can Decrease Metabolism Over Time

x-no-archive: yes

Doug Freyburger said:

Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
the list of qualifying questions.

Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.

Ketosis and very low calorie diets both have a similar effect on T3, the
active thyroid hormone.

Susan

Susan wrote:
|| x-no-archive: yes

|| Doug Freyburger wrote:
||
||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
||| the list of qualifying questions.
||
|| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.
||

Really? Please cite the studies.

--
Peter
Website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo

Marengo said:

Susan wrote:
|| Doug Freyburger wrote:

||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
||| the list of qualifying questions.

|| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.

Really? Please cite the studies.

Please do. I thought the point of Atkins CCLL being
the point just before you fall out of ketosis is to
avoid stalls. The studies of T3 and very low carb
hint that staying very low can be a source of stalls
or metabolism reduction. The two add up, sorta.

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To see about reversing this T3 reduction also search for
"leptin reset".

I'm not prepared to up my carbs even temporarily because of diabetes - but
some of the links from the above search suggested a chromium picolinate
supplement might to the same job. Anyone using this? Do you have to take it
long-term? What are effective doses?

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/<6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

"Nicky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not prepared to up my carbs even temporarily because of diabetes - but
some of the links from the above search suggested a chromium picolinate
supplement might to the same job. Anyone using this? Do you have to take

it

Quoted message said:

long-term? What are effective doses?

Wasn't there a study that showed it was effective but only in people who
were deficient in chromium to start with?
Supposedly vinegar, like in salad dressing or dill pickles, eaten at the
beginning of a meal can help keep PP BGs lower, something about a particular
type of fatty acid, I think that was mentioned on m.h.d recently.

--
No Husband Has Ever Been Shot While Doing The Dishes

"None Given" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Nicky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not prepared to up my carbs even temporarily because of diabetes -
but
some of the links from the above search suggested a chromium picolinate
supplement might to the same job. Anyone using this? Do you have to take

it

Quoted message said:

long-term? What are effective doses?

Wasn't there a study that showed it was effective but only in people who
were deficient in chromium to start with?
Supposedly vinegar, like in salad dressing or dill pickles, eaten at the
beginning of a meal can help keep PP BGs lower, something about a
particular
type of fatty acid, I think that was mentioned on m.h.d recently.

Ah, I've a nasty feeling you're right - I remember looking up the symptoms
of chromium deficiency, and I didn't have any - and I can develop any
symptom I read about whilst reading : )

I do try to include vinegar with meals, it does seem to help. My 10yo's just
come back from a school activity week complaining about the salad dressing
not being vinaigrette - I guess I do a mean one : )

Nicky.

--
A1c 10.5/4.5/<6 Weight 95/77/72Kg
1g Metformin, 100ug Thyroxine
T2 DX 05/2004

x-no-archive: yes

Marengo said:

Susan wrote:
|| x-no-archive: yes

|| Doug Freyburger wrote:
||
||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
||| the list of qualifying questions.
||
|| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.
||

Really? Please cite the studies.

Sorry, but I've been away a couple of weeks. I've cited them here often
in the past, and you may be able to google them up under "thyroid and
ketosis", or "ketosis and metabolism".

Or check Medline, there are many cites showing it; ketosis and very low
cal both trigger the starvation/preservation mechanism by switching us
from active T3 to reverse T3 thyroid hormone.

I'll try to relocate the cites for you once I'm more up to date here at
home.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Marengo said:

Susan wrote:
|| x-no-archive: yes

|| Doug Freyburger wrote:
||
||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
||| the list of qualifying questions.
||
|| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.
||

Really? Please cite the studies.

Sorry, but I've been away a couple of weeks. I've cited them here often
in the past, and you may be able to google them up under "thyroid and
ketosis", or "ketosis and metabolism".

Or check Medline, there are many cites showing it; ketosis and very low
cal both trigger the starvation/preservation mechanism by switching us
from active T3 to reverse T3 thyroid hormone.

I'll try to relocate the cites for you once I'm more up to date here at
home.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Marengo said:

Susan wrote:
|| x-no-archive: yes

|| Doug Freyburger wrote:
||
||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
||| the list of qualifying questions.
||
|| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.
||

Really? Please cite the studies.

I had some in my archive, Peter, so here are a few.

Metabolism 1986 May;35(5):394-8

The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric diet on
resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones.

Mathieson RA, Walberg JL, Gwazdauskas FC, Hinkle DE, Gregg JM
Twelve obese women were studied to determine the effects of the
combination of an aerobic exercise program with either a high
carbohydrate (HC) very-low-caloric diet (VLCD) or a low carbohydrate
(LC) VLCD diet on resting metabolic rate (RMR), serum thyroxine (T4),
3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3), and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (rT3). The
response of these parameters was also examined when subjects switched
from the VLCD to a mixed hypocaloric diet. Following a maintenance
period, subjects consumed one of the two VLCDs for 28 days. In addition,
all subjects participated in thrice weekly submaximal exercise sessions
at 60% of maximal aerobic capacity. Following VLCD treatments,
participants consumed a 1,000 kcal mixed diet while continuing the
exercise program for one week. Measurements of RMR, T4, T3, and rT3 were
made weekly. Weight decreased significantly more for LC than HC. Serum
T4 was not significantly affected during the VLCD. *Although serum T3
decreased during the VLCD for both groups, the decrease occurred faster
and to a greater magnitude in LC (34.6% mean decrease) than HC (17.9%
mean decrease).* Serum rT3 increased similarly for each treatment by the
first week of the VLCD. Serum T3 and rT3 of both groups returned to
baseline concentrations following one week of the 1,000 kcal diet. Both
groups exhibited similar progressive decreases in RMR during treatment
(12.4% for LC and 20.8% for HC), but values were not significantly lower
than baseline until week 3 of the VLCD. Thus, although dietary
carbohydrate content had an influence on the magnitude of fall in serum
T3, RMR declined similarly for both dietary treatments.

PMID: 3702673, UI: 86202732

J Endocrinol Invest 1982 Jan-Feb;5(1):47-52

Effect of dietary carbohydrates during hypocaloric treatment of obesity
on peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism.

Pasquali R, Parenti M, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Cavazzini G, Baraldi G,
Sorrenti G, De Benedettis G, Biso P, Melchionda N
The effect of different hypocaloric carbohydrate (CHO) intakes was
evaluated in 8 groups of obese patients in order to assess the role of
the CHO and the other dietary sources in modulating the peripheral
thyroid hormone metabolism. These changes were independent of those of
bw. Serum T3 concentrations appear to be more easily affected than those
of reverse T3 by dietary manipulation and CHO content of the diet. *A
fall in T3 levels during the entire period of study with respect to the
basal levels occurred only when the CHO of the diet was 120 g/day or
less, independent of caloric intake (360, 645 or 1200 calories).
Moreover, reverse T3 concentrations were found increased during the
entire period of study when total CHO were very low (40 to 50 g/day)
while they demonstrated only a transient increase when CHO were at least
105 g/day (with 645 or more total calories).* *Indeed, our data indicate
that a threshold may exist in dietary CHO, independent of caloric
intake, below which modifications occur in thyroid hormone
concentrations.* From these results it appears that the CHO content of
the diet is more important than non-CHO sources in modulating peripheral
thyroid hormone metabolism and that the influence of total calories is
perhaps as pronounced as that of CHO when a "permissive" amount of CHO
is ingested.

PMID: 7096916, UI: 82240425

Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and
reverse T3 in man.

Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS
To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition on
circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied after 7-18 days of
total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric diets (800 kcal) in
which carbohydrate content was varied to provide from 0 to 100%
calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a 53% reduction in
serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58% increase in rT3. Subjects
receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric diets for two weeks
demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3 but there was no
significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast, the same subjects
receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50 g of carbohydrate
showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3 concentration. The
decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate diet correlated
significantly with blood glucose and ketones but there was no
correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that dietary
carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3 production in man.
In contrast, rT3 concentration is not significantly affected by changes
in dietary carbohydrate. Our data suggest that the rise in serum rT3
during starvation may be related to more severe caloric restriction than
that caused by the 800 kcal diet.

PMID: 1249190, UI: 76120800

Susan

Susan wrote:
|| x-no-archive: yes
||
|| Marengo wrote:
||| Susan wrote:
||||| x-no-archive: yes
|||
||||| Doug Freyburger wrote:
|||||
|||||| Studies show that for very low carb like staying on Induction.
|||||| But staying on Induction isn't the entire Atkins plan. Yet
|||||| another reason to follow the directions and move on to OWL
|||||| in week 3 no matter that staying low is allowed if you satisfy
|||||| the list of qualifying questions.
|||||
||||| Studies show it for *ketosis*, period.
|||||
|||
|||
||| Really? Please cite the studies.
|||
||
|| I had some in my archive, Peter, so here are a few.
||
||
||
|| Metabolism 1986 May;35(5):394-8
||
||
||
|| The effect of varying carbohydrate content of a very-low-caloric
|| diet on resting metabolic rate and thyroid hormones.
||
|| Mathieson RA, Walberg JL, Gwazdauskas FC, Hinkle DE, Gregg JM
|| Twelve obese women were studied to determine the effects of the
|| combination of an aerobic exercise program with either a high
|| carbohydrate (HC) very-low-caloric diet (VLCD) or a low carbohydrate
|| (LC) VLCD diet on resting metabolic rate (RMR), serum thyroxine (T4),
|| 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (T3), and 3,5,3'-triiodothyronine (rT3). The
|| response of these parameters was also examined when subjects switched
|| from the VLCD to a mixed hypocaloric diet. Following a maintenance
|| period, subjects consumed one of the two VLCDs for 28 days. In
|| addition, all subjects participated in thrice weekly submaximal
|| exercise sessions at 60% of maximal aerobic capacity. Following VLCD
|| treatments, participants consumed a 1,000 kcal mixed diet while
|| continuing the exercise program for one week. Measurements of RMR,
|| T4, T3, and rT3 were made weekly. Weight decreased significantly
|| more for LC than HC. Serum T4 was not significantly affected during
|| the VLCD. *Although serum T3 decreased during the VLCD for both
|| groups, the decrease occurred faster and to a greater magnitude in
|| LC (34.6% mean decrease) than HC (17.9% mean decrease).* Serum rT3
|| increased similarly for each treatment by the first week of the
|| VLCD. Serum T3 and rT3 of both groups returned to baseline
|| concentrations following one week of the 1,000 kcal diet. Both
|| groups exhibited similar progressive decreases in RMR during
|| treatment (12.4% for LC and 20.8% for HC), but values were not
|| significantly lower than baseline until week 3 of the VLCD. Thus,
|| although dietary carbohydrate content had an influence on the
|| magnitude of fall in serum T3, RMR declined similarly for both
|| dietary treatments.
||
|| PMID: 3702673, UI: 86202732
||
||
|| J Endocrinol Invest 1982 Jan-Feb;5(1):47-52
||
||
||
|| Effect of dietary carbohydrates during hypocaloric treatment of
|| obesity on peripheral thyroid hormone metabolism.
||
|| Pasquali R, Parenti M, Mattioli L, Capelli M, Cavazzini G, Baraldi G,
|| Sorrenti G, De Benedettis G, Biso P, Melchionda N
|| The effect of different hypocaloric carbohydrate (CHO) intakes was
|| evaluated in 8 groups of obese patients in order to assess the role
|| of the CHO and the other dietary sources in modulating the peripheral
|| thyroid hormone metabolism. These changes were independent of those
|| of bw. Serum T3 concentrations appear to be more easily affected
|| than those of reverse T3 by dietary manipulation and CHO content of
|| the diet. *A fall in T3 levels during the entire period of study
|| with respect to the basal levels occurred only when the CHO of the
|| diet was 120 g/day or less, independent of caloric intake (360, 645
|| or 1200 calories). Moreover, reverse T3 concentrations were found
|| increased during the entire period of study when total CHO were very
|| low (40 to 50 g/day) while they demonstrated only a transient
|| increase when CHO were at least 105 g/day (with 645 or more total
|| calories).* *Indeed, our data indicate that a threshold may exist in
|| dietary CHO, independent of caloric intake, below which
|| modifications occur in thyroid hormone concentrations.* From these
|| results it appears that the CHO content of the diet is more
|| important than non-CHO sources in modulating peripheral thyroid
|| hormone metabolism and that the influence of total calories is
|| perhaps as pronounced as that of CHO when a "permissive" amount of
|| CHO is ingested.
||
|| PMID: 7096916, UI: 82240425
||
||
||
||
||
||
||
|| Effect of caloric restriction and dietary composition of serum T3 and
|| reverse T3 in man.
||
|| Spaulding SW, Chopra IJ, Sherwin RS, Lyall SS
|| To evaluate the effect of caloric restriction and dietary
|| composition on circulating T3 and rT3 obese subjects were studied
|| after 7-18 days of total fasting and while on randomized hypocaloric
|| diets (800 kcal) in which carbohydrate content was varied to provide
|| from 0 to 100% calories. As anticipated, total fasting resulted in a
|| 53% reduction in serum T3 in association with reciprocal 58%
|| increase in rT3. Subjects receiving the no-carbohydrate hypocaloric
|| diets for two weeks demonstrated a similar 47% decline in serum T3
|| but there was no significant change in rT3 with time. In contrast,
|| the same subjects receiving isocaloric diets containing at least 50
|| g of carbohydrate showed no significant changes in either T3 or rT3
|| concentration. The decline in serum T3 during the no-carbohydrate
|| diet correlated significantly with blood glucose and ketones but
|| there was no correlation with insulin or glucagon. We conclude that
|| dietary carbohydrate is an important regulatory factor in T3
|| production in man. In contrast, rT3 concentration is not
|| significantly affected by changes in dietary carbohydrate. Our data
|| suggest that the rise in serum rT3 during starvation may be related
|| to more severe caloric restriction than that caused by the 800 kcal
|| diet.
||
|| PMID: 1249190, UI: 76120800
||
||
||
|| Susan

Thanks
--
Peter
Website: http://users.thelink.net/marengo