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Distance kick timing

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01 / Original postDistance kick timingMan o' Tea · 21 Apr 2005 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 3 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #44[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) · 14 May 2005

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Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
21 April 2005
Last activity
14 May 2005
Original author
Man o' Tea
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  1. Original post
    Man o' Tea
    Archived post
    #1

    Last fall, someone posted video clips of the men's 1500m final, Athens
    2004. I decided to compare the kick timing recommended by Maglischo
    with what I could see in those videos and in some older 1500m clips.
    So I drew some two-dimensional diagrams to illustrate. With all that
    was going on this winter, I never got around to posting about it,
    though:

    http://www.donalfagan.com/html/kick_timing.html

    I unwisely used dark blue to indicate the kicking foot. It looked fine
    in Autocad, but on some monitors the feet seem to disappear.

    Except for Davies, who kicks very much like the classic two-beat
    crossover, Maglischo's diagrams don't really apply to distance kicking.
    I'm not that surprised that Jensen's six-beat differs, because the
    classic six-beat is a sprinter's kick. I am surprised that Hackett's
    four-beat is so different from the model, because I think of the
    four-beat as primarily a distance kick.

    So we have more styles of kicking than the five in Swimming Fastest,
    and there may be variants for middle distance kicking as well.

    Report
  2. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #2

    Thanks for the data, Donal.

    I've already written extensively on this user group about the
    "different" kick pattern of elite males, but with very little response.
    I've also pointed out the utter surprise that a figure as large as
    Maglischo in the culture has not talked about it. It's possible that
    the kick is fairly new - maybe it came out of the elite swim culture of
    Australia.

    If you look at the following still pictures, you will see how different
    an elite female (Lindsey Benko) kicks from an elite male (Grant
    Hackett).

    http://www.geocities.com/ekurth99/hackett_phelps.html

    What you will find with the "elite male" kick can be most noticed as
    they go to breath. What will be observed is that they kick down with
    the same leg of the extending arm. So if they breath right, as they
    rotate onto their left side and extend forward with their left hand,
    they will also kick down with their left leg. In a "standard" 6-beat,
    they would be kicking down with their right leg here to finish the
    stroke on the opposite site.

    The best way to observe this kick is when it is used in a 4-beat
    pattern - less to observe. Grant Hackett, Klete Keller, and Yuri
    Prilukov all use it in an identical fashion. It's not that hard to
    swim that way, particularly if you're using fins.

    Eric

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  3. me
    Archived post
    #3

    I've always been told 6-beat for anything over 200

    Report
  4. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #4

    "me" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I've always been told 6-beat for anything over 200

    And why do you think this would be correct?

    Report
  5. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #5

    I assume that's a typo - you mean 6-beat for anything UNDER 200.
    Nearly everyone kicks up to 200 on the men's side. Even at the 400 a
    lot of men kick.

    I read a book about the 1976 Olympics that followed four swimmers, Tim
    Shaw, Bobby Hackett, Brian Goodell, and Stephen Holland. The author
    pointed out that at the start of the 1500m race, every man in the pool
    was using a two beat kick. Brian Goodell went to a 6-beat kick late in
    the race. The race was run in about 15 flat. Of course the World
    record now approaches 14:30. So the men used to "fire" 15 100's in a
    row at an average of a minute apiece. They now fire 15 100's in a row
    at 59 seconds a piece, or even 58 seconds a piece.

    What's lowering the time? There's the usual suspects - better
    training, better nutrition, body suits, etc. But maybe part of it in
    this race is a pradigm shift to kicking. I don't think anybody kicked
    the entire 1500m like they do now.

    Eric

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  6. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #6

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    What's lowering the time? There's the usual suspects - better
    training, better nutrition, body suits, etc. But maybe part of it in
    this race is a pradigm shift to kicking. I don't think anybody kicked
    the entire 1500m like they do now.

    You're mistaken.

    Kicking has been in and out of fashion since the days of Flying Gull.

    Report
  7. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #7

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "You're mistaken.

    Kicking has been in and out of fashion since the days of Flying Gull. "

    Who is Flying Gull? Please give an example of an elite swimmer who
    kicked the entire 1500m who is not currently on the international
    scene.

    You were asserting a historical perspective and now you wish to restrict
    replies to "currently"?

    Report
  8. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #8

    "You're mistaken.

    Kicking has been in and out of fashion since the days of Flying Gull. "

    Who is Flying Gull? Please give an example of an elite swimmer who
    kicked the entire 1500m who is not currently on the international
    scene.

    Eric

    Report
  9. Man o' Tea
    Archived post
    #9

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3871/is_200407/ai_n9418290

    Report
  10. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #10

    I was asking you to back up your claim that kicking during distance
    events goes in and out of favor. It currently appears to be in favor -
    Hackett kicks, Jensen kicks. I even consider Davies to kick fairly
    vigorously because he whips his legs down hard even during the
    cross-over beats of his rhythm.

    Eric

    Report
  11. Par Svensson
    Archived post
    #11

    The videos are still up at my site

    http://www.kurtz.se/swim/

    If you look at the Klim-Lochte clip from the 4x200 final, you'll find
    their kicks to be mirrored. Seems Lochte isn't following the text
    book. See

    http://www.kurtz.se/swim/klim-lochte-kick-comparison.jpg

    for a still. Also, I added a nice little clip of Josefin Lillhage
    swimming slowly past the camera using her wide, deep stroke and a
    4-beat crossover kick similar to what I'm using.

    /Par

    Report
  12. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #12

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I was asking you to back up your claim that kicking during distance
    events goes in and out of favor. It currently appears to be in favor -
    Hackett kicks, Jensen kicks. I even consider Davies to kick fairly
    vigorously because he whips his legs down hard even during the
    cross-over beats of his rhythm.

    You have biomechanical data for the strength of the leg actions of all of
    these?

    Report
  13. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #13

    "You have biomechanical data for the strength of the leg actions of all
    of
    these?"

    I finally figured it out - sometimes I'm a little slow 🙂

    You're a troll.

    Eric

    Report
  14. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #14

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "You have biomechanical data for the strength of the leg actions of all
    of
    these?"

    I finally figured it out - sometimes I'm a little slow 🙂

    You're a troll.

    Not at all.

    Just asking for facts to substantiate your posts. Does the above mean you
    don't have any?

    Report
  15. Email address hidden
    Archived post
    #15

    "Not at all.

    Just asking for facts to substantiate your posts. Does the above mean
    you
    don't have any? "

    Your responses are always terse, no more than two sentences. You
    always ask questions to try and elicit a response. You present no
    data, no arguments, no facts. You never answer any questions yourself.

    You're probably a 60 year old smoker with emphysema 🙂 no mas.

    Report
  16. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #16

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Not at all.

    Just asking for facts to substantiate your posts. Does the above mean
    you
    don't have any? "

    Your responses are always terse, no more than two sentences. You
    always ask questions to try and elicit a response.

    It's considered good etiquette on usenet to trim appropriately; best done
    when the quote, a reply, and a possible response can all fit on one 72x20
    screen.

    Is it your position that good etiquette and asking questions are things you
    don't wish to see?

    Report
  17. Dusty.Rhodes
    Archived post
    #17
    jtaylor said:

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Not at all.

    Just asking for facts to substantiate your posts. Does the above mean
    you
    don't have any? "

    Your responses are always terse, no more than two sentences. You
    always ask questions to try and elicit a response.

    It's considered good etiquette on usenet to trim appropriately; best done
    when the quote, a reply, and a possible response can all fit on one 72x20
    screen.

    Is it your position that good etiquette and asking questions are things you
    don't wish to see?

    I thought his position was you don't contribute to the discussion.
    That's my position anyway.

    Report
  18. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #18

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I thought his position was you don't contribute to the discussion.
    That's my position anyway.

    In what way do you think I don't contribute?

    Report
  19. Dusty.Rhodes
    Archived post
    #19
    jtaylor said:

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I thought his position was you don't contribute to the discussion.
    That's my position anyway.

    In what way do you think I don't contribute?

    That's it, there.

    Report
  20. jtaylor
    Archived post
    #20

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    jtaylor said:

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I thought his position was you don't contribute to the discussion.
    That's my position anyway.

    In what way do you think I don't contribute?

    That's it, there.

    So the only posts you contribute to this thread are complaints about someone
    else?

    Report

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