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Distance kick timing

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
21 April 2005
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14 May 2005
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Man o' Tea
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  1. jtaylor said:

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    jtaylor said:

    "Dusty.Rhodes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    >I thought his position was you don't contribute to the discussion.
    >That's my position anyway.

    In what way do you think I don't contribute?

    That's it, there.

    So the only posts you contribute to this thread are complaints about someone
    else?

    I haven't contributed yet.

  2. <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I was asking you to back up your claim that kicking during distance
    events goes in and out of favor. It currently appears to be in favor -
    Hackett kicks, Jensen kicks. I even consider Davies to kick fairly
    vigorously because he whips his legs down hard even during the
    cross-over beats of his rhythm.

    Well, in roughly chronological order:

    Flying Gull - described as "thrashing"
    Freddie Lane - 2-beat
    Kahanamoku - 6-beat
    Weissmuller - 6-beat
    Charleton - 2 beat
    ..
    ..
    ..
    more recently
    ..
    ..
    ..
    Carnaugh - 6 beat
    Rose - 2 beat
    Breen - crossover
    Schollander - 6-beat
    Clark - 6 beat
    Meyer - crossover
    Wenden - crossover
    Demont - crossover
    Kinsella - all over the place (this lead to some big-name coach advocating a
    "shuffle" kick, independent of arms)
    Gould - 2 beat
    Babashof (Shirley) - 2 beat
    Salnikov - hardly any kick
    ..
    ..
    ..
    and that should be enough examples of both, and the fact that kicking styles
    have always been a mix. Perhaps the most vivid example of this in recent
    times was the classic battle between Wenden and Schollander at the Mexico
    Games (Wenden won, but he didn't beat Schollander's record).

    Now, evidence that kicking has any direct - or indirect - effect on speed,
    to the point that a swimmer who habitually does one style of kick should
    change to another, although a favourite topic of the armchair coaches in
    this part of usenet, is inconclusive and in many cases little (or no) more
    that "I saw so-and-so swim and I say kicking (does/doesnot) help."

  3. Par Svensson said:

    The videos are still up at my site

    http://www.kurtz.se/swim/

    If you look at the Klim-Lochte clip from the 4x200 final, you'll find
    their kicks to be mirrored. Seems Lochte isn't following the text
    book. See

    http://www.kurtz.se/swim/klim-lochte-kick-comparison.jpg

    for a still. Also, I added a nice little clip of Josefin Lillhage
    swimming slowly past the camera using her wide, deep stroke and a
    4-beat crossover kick similar to what I'm using.

    /Par

    Hi Par,

    I have a great video of Hackett and Thorpe swimming side by side.
    Can't remember where I got it. It's very intesting video for showing
    Grant Hackett lying on his righ side and not kicking while he pushes
    way back with his left arm. If I email it to you, could you post it?
    Others may find it as instructive as I have.

    Thanks,
    Eric

  4. Man o' Tea said:

    Last fall, someone posted video clips of the men's 1500m final,


    Athens

    Quoted message said:

    2004. I decided to compare the kick timing recommended by Maglischo
    with what I could see in those videos and in some older 1500m clips.
    So I drew some two-dimensional diagrams to illustrate. With all that
    was going on this winter, I never got around to posting about it,
    though:

    http://www.donalfagan.com/html/kick_timing.html

    I unwisely used dark blue to indicate the kicking foot. It looked


    fine

    Quoted message said:

    in Autocad, but on some monitors the feet seem to disappear.

    Except for Davies, who kicks very much like the classic two-beat
    crossover, Maglischo's diagrams don't really apply to distance


    kicking.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm not that surprised that Jensen's six-beat differs, because the
    classic six-beat is a sprinter's kick. I am surprised that Hackett's
    four-beat is so different from the model, because I think of the
    four-beat as primarily a distance kick.

    So we have more styles of kicking than the five in Swimming Fastest,
    and there may be variants for middle distance kicking as well.

    I was searching for a swim video on the web and came across a DVD that
    Ian Thorpe has made detailing how he swims. A reporter asked if Thorpe
    should be concerned about giving out his secrets. One of the Coach's
    responded with the following quote, which I think you'll agree we've
    heard before:

    "Champion athletes have particular characteristics and traits and what
    works for him won't work for everyone," Hodge said. "Ian's stroke is
    built around tremendous flexibility in his ankles and feet, so it won't
    suit all people."

    Eric

  5. Quoted message said:

    "Ian's stroke is ... won't suit all people."

    Does Davies' coach say, "Dave has no special talents, anyone can swim
    like him?"

  6. "Man o' Tea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    "Ian's stroke is ... won't suit all people."

    Does Davies' coach say, "Dave has no special talents, anyone can swim
    like him?"

    Why would he say that? Stop being so obtuse.

  7. diablo said:

    Anyone can imitate his style, same as
    they can try and imitate Hackett or
    Thorpe...

    That's what I meant: Imitate his style to make themselves faster.

    Quoted message said:

    which is the point of Coach Hodge says.

    Who is Coach Hodge? I don't follow you.

    Quoted message said:

    For someone complaining about straw men
    in disvcussions you certainly contribute
    a few of your own.

    Larry, and more recently, Eric, have repeatedly trumpeted the benefits
    of high-turnover swimming like Bennett, and more recently Davies. It
    isn't a straw man argument if I'm just restating what they actually
    say.

  8. "Man o' Tea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    diablo said:

    Anyone can imitate his style, same as
    they can try and imitate Hackett or
    Thorpe...

    That's what I meant: Imitate his style to make themselves faster.

    Quoted message said:

    which is the point of Coach Hodge says.

    Who is Coach Hodge? I don't follow you.

    he is cited as Thorpe's coach in the initial quotation by Eric.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    For someone complaining about straw men
    in disvcussions you certainly contribute
    a few of your own.

    Larry, and more recently, Eric, have repeatedly trumpeted the benefits
    of high-turnover swimming like Bennett, and more recently Davies. It
    isn't a straw man argument if I'm just restating what they actually
    say.

    It is because they're advocating a style to make you fastER, not 'as fast
    as', and neither are they using ridicule to support their argument.

  9. diablo said:

    It is because they're advocating a
    style to make you fastER, not 'as fast
    as', ...

    Well, unless you can show where I said "as fast as", *you* are making
    the straw man argument.

    Quoted message said:

    ... and neither are they using
    ridicule to support their argument.

    Actually, Eric recently called one of my questions 'useless' rather
    than responding to it.

  10. Man o' Tea said:
    diablo said:

    It is because they're advocating a
    style to make you fastER, not 'as fast
    as', ...

    Well, unless you can show where I said "as fast as", *you* are making
    the straw man argument.

    Quoted message said:

    ... and neither are they using
    ridicule to support their argument.

    Actually, Eric recently called one of my questions 'useless' rather
    than responding to it.

    The question you posed which I called "useless" was as follows:

    "Is there a current male distance swimmer with an ineffective kick?"

    Actually I believe I did respond with a long winded reply. I pointed
    out that the answer on the surface is obviously "no". Each distance
    swimmer at the elite level has the most effective kick for them. For
    Ian Thorpe, big, flexible feet, a powerful and vigorous kick is the
    cornerstone of his swimming. For Dave Davies, not so much, and even
    less for someone like Rick Say. You can't get to the elite level with
    an ineffective kick - at that level tenths of one percent are the
    difference between winning and losing. You can't put energy into an
    ineffective kick and make it to the elite level. That's obvious, and
    that's why your question is a poor one.

    I've never quite figured out your agenda with regard to kicking.
    You're a big TI proponent, so you attack anything that tries to
    diminish TI, either directly or indirectly. Fair enough. But your
    goal in discussing any kind of kicking appears to be simply to confuse
    the issue. That's why you make indefensible statements like saying
    that Dave Davies kicks as much as Larsen Jensen. No one who has
    studied swimming for any length of time would come to the same
    conclusion.

    So how does obfuscating kicking pump up TI?

    Eric

  11. Quoted message said:

    I've never quite figured out your
    agenda with regard to kicking.

    I really don't have an agenda. I want to swim correctly and I resent
    being fed misinformation.

    Quoted message said:

    But your goal in discussing any kind of
    kicking appears to be simply to confuse
    the issue.

    Yeah, that's why I draughted and posted comparisons of kick timing
    between what Maglischo recommends and what elite distance swimmers
    actually do - just to confuse y'all.

    Quoted message said:

    That's why you make indefensible
    statements like saying that Dave Davies
    kicks as much as Larsen Jensen. No one
    who has studied swimming for any length
    of time would come to the same
    conclusion.

    Was my math incorrect? Do Jensen and Davies not swim at CR of 32 and
    48, respectively? Does that not multiply out to the same number of
    kicks per minute? If not, then show me. Is there a clip with Davies
    not kicking? If so, show me.

    If not, admit that Davies kicks as often as Jensen. Certainly Jensen
    kicks harder than Davies' crossovers and probably harder all around,
    though I don't know how to measure that. I saw the vortices you
    mentioned, the fling rings, but they are generally headed down, not
    backwards.

    Quoted message said:

    So how does obfuscating kicking pump
    up TI?

    I don't think *I* am the one obfuscating. I didn't get to see the
    Olympics last year. From everything I read here, I downloaded Par's
    1500m clips expecting to see a light-kicking Davies among the
    four-beats and six-beats, but I couldn't even pick him out. Why?
    Because he kicks a lot, too.

  12. Man o' Tea said:
    Quoted message said:

    I've never quite figured out your
    agenda with regard to kicking.

    I really don't have an agenda. I want to swim correctly and I resent
    being fed misinformation.

    Saying Dave Davies and Larsen Jensen kick even remotely the same is the
    height of misinformation. People who study swimming dismiss it as a
    rant or the opinion of somehow unfamiliar with the sport. But some
    newbie might be influenced by it.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    But your goal in discussing any kind of
    kicking appears to be simply to confuse
    the issue.

    Yeah, that's why I draughted and posted comparisons of kick timing
    between what Maglischo recommends and what elite distance swimmers
    actually do - just to confuse y'all.

    "gh" =? "f". Not always. Anyways, we appreciate your work.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    That's why you make indefensible
    statements like saying that Dave Davies
    kicks as much as Larsen Jensen. No one
    who has studied swimming for any length
    of time would come to the same
    conclusion.

    Was my math incorrect? Do Jensen and Davies not swim at CR of 32 and
    48, respectively? Does that not multiply out to the same number of
    kicks per minute? If not, then show me. Is there a clip with Davies
    not kicking? If so, show me.

    Your data in simply comparing the number of kicks is not valid. You
    MUST take into account the arm stroke rate. Taking that into account
    reveals the fallacy of your numbers. You expect us to believe that
    Davies has a stroke rate which is 50% PERCENT HIGHER than Jensen, plus
    he has a comparable kick, and yet he only swims as fast as Jensen, and
    not faster? That's absurd - is a black hole absorbing all the energy
    which is unaccounted for in your calculation 🙂

    Quoted message said:


    If not, admit that Davies kicks as often as Jensen.

    Yes he does. But with not nearly the same force, and not nearly the
    same propulsion. (see above). I can feel my legs move around as I
    swim - but I'm under no illusion that I'm kicking like Larsen Jensen.

    Eric

  13. Quoted message said:

    Saying Dave Davies and Larsen Jensen
    kick even remotely the same is the
    height of misinformation.

    Look, I pointed out that they take the same number of kicks. Do you
    really think that changing that into a straw man statement will
    convince me?

    Quoted message said:

    "gh" =? "f". Not always.

    I prefer that spelling. In my day, technical drawings were prepared by
    draughtsman, not 'drafters' (yecch). Look it up.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyways, we appreciate your work.

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:

    Your data in simply comparing the
    number of kicks is not valid. You
    MUST take into account the arm
    stroke rate.

    I did. 32 x 6 = 48 x 4. Ask your math teacher.

    Quoted message said:

    You expect us to believe that
    Davies has a stroke rate which is
    50% PERCENT HIGHER than Jensen, plus
    he has a comparable kick, and yet
    he only swims as fast as Jensen, and
    not faster?

    Yet another straw man. Find where I claimed that Davies kick was 'as
    strong as', 'as fast as', 'as big as' or anything like that. Davies
    kicks *as often as* Jensen. You guys are falling all over yourselves
    rephrasing what I said so you can take potshots. Do you really wonder
    why I don't find you convincing when you continually resort to such
    transparent fallacies?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If not, admit that Davies kicks as often as Jensen.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes he does.

    Finally.

    Quoted message said:

    But with not nearly the same force,
    and not nearly the same propulsion.

    Probably not, though again we have no real measurements. Davies' kick
    may be more propulsive than your seat of the pants estimation; it may
    have none.

  14. To Man O'Tea (I had figured out that you must be Coach Stack, from the
    Manatee Masters in NorCal, who used to contribute some thoughtful
    messages. Plus, you weren't sounding as pithy and puckish as the Donal
    of old. Man O' Tea/Manatee...it was so perfect; alas....).

    You didn't say that Davies and Jensen had the same kick, but you
    implied as much:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Why do you keep misinfroming people that Davies has a weak kick? His

    kick used to be *the* sprinter's kick. <<

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Then tell me what is most different between Jensen's and Davies'


    kicks.
    No one has mentioned it yet.<<

    The above was in the context of challenging the obvious relationship
    between Jensen's prodigious, continuous kick and his long stroke
    swimming style on one hand and Davies' obvious weak kick and short
    stroke/high turnover swimming style. All of the evidence available
    from the real world of competitive swimming and from velocity time
    curves (showing marked and instantaneous deceleration during the dead
    periods of the stroke cycle) and from the timing of the kick (where the
    greatest downward kick amplitude/force coincides with the period where
    there would otherwise be the greatest deceleration) confirms the folly
    of focusing on stroke length for swimmers with weak to non-existent
    kicks. Such swimmers have much more to gain by focusing on stroke
    rate. What is needed is a stroke rate equivalent of swim golf. I'm
    thinking divide strokes taken per 50 by time in seconds per 50. What
    you want is to maximize the number. The point at which the stroke
    becomes inefficient is when the slow down will occur. This is the sort
    of drill which will best lead to improvement in a swimmer with a weak
    to non-existent kick. More than the wrong-headed effort to focus on
    increasing stroke length, while ignoring efforts to efficiently
    increase stroke rate and velocity.

    It is VERY easy to index the kick effectiveness of an elite level
    swimmer. For the average elite level swimmer (who always has flexible
    ankles) and less than Thorpe-sized feet, the kick effectiveness is
    proportional to the amount of water (roostertail) thrown up. Not for
    hackers with inflexible ankles, but for true elite level competitive
    swimmers. It's why the swim announcers (Rowdy Gaines, et al) correctly
    note when a swimmer really has her/his kick going strong. Rowdy gauges
    this by the size of the roostertail, because that's proportional to the
    effectiveness of the kick. Conservatively speaking, integrate the
    amount of water thrown up by Jensen in an average 50 and its easily 5
    to 10 times that thrown up by Davies. Just watch the clip. Score
    Jensen's kick as a "ten." If Jensen is a 10 and no kick at all is a
    zero, then Davies is way less than a 5. More like a 2 or a three.
    And, by respective volumes of water lifted out of the pool, it's more
    like a 1 to 2.

    - Larry W

    Man o' Tea said:
    Quoted message said:

    Saying Dave Davies and Larsen Jensen
    kick even remotely the same is the
    height of misinformation.

    Look, I pointed out that they take the same number of kicks. Do you
    really think that changing that into a straw man statement will
    convince me?

    Quoted message said:

    "gh" =? "f". Not always.

    I prefer that spelling. In my day, technical drawings were prepared


    by

    Quoted message said:

    draughtsman, not 'drafters' (yecch). Look it up.

    Quoted message said:

    Anyways, we appreciate your work.

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:

    Your data in simply comparing the
    number of kicks is not valid. You
    MUST take into account the arm
    stroke rate.

    I did. 32 x 6 = 48 x 4. Ask your math teacher.

    Quoted message said:

    You expect us to believe that
    Davies has a stroke rate which is
    50% PERCENT HIGHER than Jensen, plus
    he has a comparable kick, and yet
    he only swims as fast as Jensen, and
    not faster?

    Yet another straw man. Find where I claimed that Davies kick was 'as
    strong as', 'as fast as', 'as big as' or anything like that. Davies
    kicks *as often as* Jensen. You guys are falling all over yourselves
    rephrasing what I said so you can take potshots. Do you really


    wonder

    Quoted message said:

    why I don't find you convincing when you continually resort to such
    transparent fallacies?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If not, admit that Davies kicks as often as Jensen.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes he does.

    Finally.

    Quoted message said:

    But with not nearly the same force,
    and not nearly the same propulsion.

    Probably not, though again we have no real measurements. Davies'


    kick

    Quoted message said:

    may be more propulsive than your seat of the pants estimation; it may
    have none.

  15. (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    You didn't say that Davies and Jensen
    had the same kick, but you implied as
    much:

    As if there are only two choices: weak and strong. There is more
    kicking in heaven and earth than is contained in your philosophies.

    <Same ol' Same ol' deleted>

  16. Man o' Tea said:

    Last fall, someone posted video clips of the men's 1500m final,


    Athens

    Quoted message said:

    2004. I decided to compare the kick timing recommended by Maglischo
    with what I could see in those videos and in some older 1500m clips.
    So I drew some two-dimensional diagrams to illustrate. With all that
    was going on this winter, I never got around to posting about it,
    though:

    http://www.donalfagan.com/html/kick_timing.html

    I unwisely used dark blue to indicate the kicking foot. It looked


    fine

    Quoted message said:

    in Autocad, but on some monitors the feet seem to disappear.
    So we have more styles of kicking than the five in Swimming Fastest,
    and there may be variants for middle distance kicking as well.

    This is great stuff, I'm still studying it!

    Your 4-beat is slightly off, I believe, in that you show the swimmer
    using the three beat rhythm while going to breath. That's usually not
    the case - in fact in all the video I've ever studied, I've only seen
    that done in one stroke cycle by Diana Munz. For your diagram, the
    person should be kicking once with their left leg while breathing
    right, and the other three beats coming during the right side pull.

    Maglischo makes the same point in his book, I believe. (It's at home,
    but I'm at work 🙂 Maglischo points out that he believes this is the
    case because compression of the diaghram during breathing make it hard
    to kick. I think that's hogwosh- swimmers use their energy intensive
    kick where it can do the most good.

    A lot of swimmers, including elites, have a fairly straight armed catch
    while going to breath. That is, they rotate their arm downward at the
    shoulder, kind of "leaning" on it. I believe one effect of this is to
    preserve momentum, because they WILL be pushing some water backwards
    with that motion. So using the added kicking here is not completely
    necessary as they will already retain some speed with their arm motion.
    The kicking is more useful when they finish breathing and are back on
    their side and trying to preserve speed as they set up the pull on the
    breathing side with a more traditional, high elbow catch.

    Eric

    PS Maybe you could show both versions - three beats while breathing,
    and three beats on the non-breathing side. Both are used, but not
    equally.

  17. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As if there are only two choices: weak and strong. There is more


    kicking in heaven and earth than is contained in your philosophies.<<

    This business about "weak kicker" / "strong kicker" is a
    generalization, as I'm sure you know. Of course it's a continuum. If
    you put on a pair of Zoomers, your kick will be a little stronger. Put
    on some duck fin style body boarding fins and your kick will be
    stronger still. Put on some big flexible scuba fins and your kick will
    be the strongest of all. And, at each step of the way, your stroke
    length will increase. Naturally, without any artificial and
    counterproductive measures to bring this about.

    The reason that the sprinter models for TI have such long, slow strokes
    is because they've got such powerful kicks. The reason that David
    Davies was so successful despite having a weak kick (relative to
    Thorpe, Popov, and Jensen) is because he swims with a short, high
    turnover stroke. I've never yet found a clear exception to this rule
    (strong kick/long stroke; weak kick/short stroke) and Man o' Tea has
    never found one either. Yet he would have us believe that complete
    non-kickers (e.g. he, I, and virtually all triathletes) should be
    focusing increasing stroke length, while just letting stroke rate take
    care of itself. This philosophy has diminished the careers of
    countless promising distance swimmers over the past 10 years, and
    continues to diminish careers, even as we quibble. To say nothing of
    misleading countless triathletes.

    - Larry Weisenthal

  18. Quoted message said:

    This is great stuff, I'm still
    studying it!

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:

    Your 4-beat is slightly off, I
    believe, in that you show the
    swimmer using the three beat
    rhythm while going to breath.

    I was surprised to see that, too, but this is not a distilled diagram;
    it is taken right off one of the Kurtz.com clips of Hackett swimming
    the 1500m. Now, I'll have to go back and verify it, of course.

    Each page is of a swimmer in a clip, compared with Maglischo's textbook
    diagram above. Davies was pretty close, the others were significantly
    different.

  19. (Larry Weisenthal) said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    As if there are only two choices: weak and strong. There is more


    kicking in heaven and earth than is contained in your philosophies.<<

    This business about "weak kicker" / "strong kicker" is a
    generalization, as I'm sure you know. Of course it's a continuum.


    If

    Quoted message said:

    you put on a pair of Zoomers, your kick will be a little stronger.


    Put

    Quoted message said:

    on some duck fin style body boarding fins and your kick will be
    stronger still. Put on some big flexible scuba fins and your kick


    will

    Quoted message said:

    be the strongest of all. And, at each step of the way, your stroke
    length will increase. Naturally, without any artificial and
    counterproductive measures to bring this about.

    The reason that the sprinter models for TI have such long, slow


    strokes

    Quoted message said:

    is because they've got such powerful kicks. The reason that David
    Davies was so successful despite having a weak kick (relative to
    Thorpe, Popov, and Jensen) is because he swims with a short, high
    turnover stroke. I've never yet found a clear exception to this rule
    (strong kick/long stroke; weak kick/short stroke) and Man o' Tea has
    never found one either. Yet he would have us believe that complete
    non-kickers (e.g. he, I, and virtually all triathletes) should be
    focusing increasing stroke length, while just letting stroke rate


    take

    Quoted message said:

    care of itself. This philosophy has diminished the careers of
    countless promising distance swimmers over the past 10 years, and
    continues to diminish careers, even as we quibble. To say nothing of
    misleading countless triathletes.

    - Larry Weisenthal

    I'm starting to see this age old debate that we have in slightly
    different terms. That's after trying many different swim styles myself
    and studying video of elite swimmers ad nauseum. We've been talking
    past each other for years on the topic, and I believe some of that is
    rooted in the differences between average swimmers and elite swimmers.
    In another words, what's good for them may not applicable to us mere
    mortals.

    I am convinced that a high turnover style is really only suitable for
    males when they are extremely lean. For example, Dave Davies is listed
    at 6'1" and 165 pounds. That gives him a Body Mass Index of only 21.8
    - pretty darn low. As I look around the pool I swim in, the best male
    practictioners of the quick, short style, are young and lean. These
    guys are the same height as me on the pool deck but are carrying 30-40
    pounds less weight.

    As best I can figure out, it's an "f=ma" kind of thing. ("Force = Mass
    x Acceleration"😉 We know that swimmers speed varies a great deal
    during a stroke cycle. And to accelerate a much larger mass (weight)
    with a quick pull is just real tiring. My arms and hands are similar
    in size to Davies, but he's got three inches in height on me that
    creates a longer vessel, and nearly 20 pounds less weight that speeds
    up and slows down every stroke cycle.

    I had an unwritten rule that in trying different swim techniques, I
    would never seriously practice something which I didn't see elites
    doing. That's because with all the styles out there, from the
    idiosyncratic (Dolan and Rossolino), to the textbook (Benko), to the
    bizarre (Evans), I figured all the bases must be covered. But in
    reality, no elite swimmer out there has an overfed, middle-aged body
    with really thick legs. They wouldn't be elite if they had those
    attributes.

    So bottom line - by all means try a quick turnover stroke. But unless
    you're real lean, I don't think it's going to seem all that great.

    Likewise with kicking. We've talked forever about what's an effective
    kick, and when people should use their kicks. We've cited data which
    shows that good sprinters have kick to swim ratios of 1.5, as a way to
    help us decide if a swimmer should work on their kick and try to
    incorporate it into their stroke a great deal. Well maybe that data
    isn't so useful. Elite sprinters have small, tight rumps, well
    developed but small quads, very lean calf muscles, and big floppy feet.
    Hello! Once again, not what I have even in one characteristic. The
    upshot is my swim/kick ratio exceeds 1.5 by a great deal, and I tire
    quickly while kicking, but boy does an easy 6-beat kick make my stroke
    feel better. So by the elite standards, I shouldn't kick.

    So I'm starting to realize we're not playing by the same rules as the
    elites. We need to study video of mediocre swimmers and figure out how
    they're getting better. I would love to see video of average swimmers
    from these online coaching gigs. In the meantime, I'll muddle through.

    Eric

  20. (Larry Weisenthal) said:

    The reason that David Davies was
    so successful despite having a
    weak kick (relative to Thorpe,
    Popov, and Jensen) is because he
    swims with a short, high turnover
    stroke.

    And with a vigorous balancing kick.

    When you originally started to sell this high turnover concept, you
    invoked Janet Evans and Brooke Bennett, saying they had very light,
    weak two-beat kicks (which may not be true for Bennett).

    Later you invoked Davies, but failed to mention that Davies, whether
    his kick is propulsive or not, is a very vigorous kicker. So it seems
    to me that your high turnover rate only works for women with floaty
    legs or for men with good balancing, leg-raising kicks. And if Eric is
    correct, only for lean swimmers in general.

    So if a stringbean triathlete is thinking of adopting a high turnover
    style, he'd better be prepared to kick vigorously throughout the swim
    leg.

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