Kilo / Sprint Training

Brad Wadlow said:

Just for discussion purpose.

What if a guy only wants to do sprints or a Kilo. Why would he do long slow rides as part of his training. What in the world is that going to do?

I know some will say that it helps recovery but Im not convinced 100% on that. It seems logical to me that rest and sleep is better for recovery than a low intensity ride. Because even though its low intensity doesnt it still take some effort and wouldnt that effort take away from your recovery? You only have so much energy..

Others may say it builds endurance. But wouldnt a 200m or a kilo effort at maximum intensity build any amount of endurance one might need to do that event? If this is true training frequency would be the thing to worry about most. Right??

Just thought I would spark a discussion 🙂

You may not want to do too many long slow miles because this would eventually lead to some fast twitch fibers behaving as slow twitch fibers as far as I understand it.

Most sprint specialists also do the keirin. This requires a tiny bit more endurance than either of the two events you mentioned. Any effort over 10-15 seconds requires slow twitch muscles. Also in a sprint tournament you need to do multiple matches but what are you doing in between - sitting on your butt or soft pedaling or warming up or cooling down. With no endurance training at all would the warmup wear you out? 🙂

Most people talk about increasing mitochondrial density in muscle fiber most effectively through endurance work, and this density is one of the trainable factors for a race over 10-15 seconds.

endurance rides are not a priority for sprint event training. Maybe get out on the road once or twice a week to break up the monotony of track/gym.

Concentrate on your gym program to increase the muscle cross section...this is where your power will come from.

You'll benefit greatly from a sprint coach as the sprint events are very specialised.

Race lots. Experience is key to match sprinting.

There will always be people who reckon if you are a pure sprinter you still need to be out on the road getting in 200+ miles per week, which to me seems unlikely to be of benefit when you consider the amount of gym and track work needed to develop your sprint to its best. I have known sprinters that fall into both ways of thinking, meaning that some may be routinely spending hours and hours out on the roads while some will cover as little as 25 miles per week. I believe that if you are involved in a serious gym programme during the off season it would be difficult to do high volume miles without it all becoming a recovery nightmare.

It is obvious that a sprinter must spend a certain amount of time on endurance work, even if it is only so that you have the stamina to last an intense track session, the percentage of total training time devoted to endurance is debateable however. A fair amount of a sprinters training will include speed endurance intervals - perhaps 500-800m efforts, that is a very tough session, but does it provide all the endurance you need for sprint/kilo/keirin?

As a thought, how much time do 100m, 200m and 400m sprinters spend on endurance work? I don't know this myself but I am fairly confident that they dont spend hours pounding the tarmac with the marathon runners.

one thing people forget about the match sprint or 200m, is that it is not a 10 or 11 second effort, as the 100m is in running. Even match sprinters need lactate tolerance and decent fitness. When you include the wind-up during the 200m, it is more a of a 20 second effort.

you also have to remember that match sprinters don't do one sprint for the day, and then go home. they have qualifying, and numerous heats after that. It requires the ability to recover or else the sprinter would have a horrible time after qualifying.

as for the kilo, I read that it is 30% aerobic, so you obviously need good fitness. the kilo also requires the best lactate tolerance of any cycling event.

velomanct said:

the kilo also requires the best lactate tolerance of any cycling event.

Yep. The odd spew is not uncommon after an effort.

ed073 said:

endurance rides are not a priority for sprint event training. Maybe get out on the road once or twice a week to break up the monotony of track/gym.

Concentrate on your gym program to increase the muscle cross section...this is where your power will come from.

You'll benefit greatly from a sprint coach as the sprint events are very specialised.

Race lots. Experience is key to match sprinting.

I disagree with a good portion of what you say here. Why do you attach the word "Endurance" to slow rides? I have personal experiance with Gym/fast trainers only and I can tell you from my experiance they all blow before the end of a meeting. I am very surprised no one has mentioned muscle firing paterns or building a "base". I do 300 - 400km a week of season at a low slow pace. I do mabey 150km in season though, and that is to aid in lactate removal and recovery. Just my opinion.

Much of a sprinters "sprint" specific training involves intense efforts followed by periods of rest, quantity/quality and rest period may alter at different times but a common theme is that it relates to a race meeting situation in the on/off cycle of effort.

I agree that you must have a good base to work from, overall strength and fitness is essential to allow a sprinter to perform the more specialised aspects of training, to be able to last through an intense interval session or to able to handle a number of rounds/events of a track meeting. But the fact that sprinting can be so much about waiting around between rounds leads me to think that the kind and depth of endurance needed is quite different to that required by a roadie. If a sprinter can't cope on the amount of recovery time that can be typical at a track meeting then surely he must be quite unfit.

I don't really know the answers (I may have been a much better sprinter myself if I did) but I wonder if shorter, more intense endurance work is more beneficial to a sprinter than lots of long slow miles? I tried both methods over a number of years and one thing I can say is that when I did a very intense 4 day gym programme combined with less road work (50-60 miles per week) during the off season, I was then at my strongest/fastest during the season. However with all the training being so specific and intense there was a tendancy to be balancing on the edge of overtraining - a line I did cross at one time.

velomanct said:

one thing people forget about the match sprint or 200m, is that it is not a 10 or 11 second effort, as the 100m is in running. Even match sprinters need lactate tolerance and decent fitness. When you include the wind-up during the 200m, it is more a of a 20 second effort.

you also have to remember that match sprinters don't do one sprint for the day, and then go home. they have qualifying, and numerous heats after that. It requires the ability to recover or else the sprinter would have a horrible time after qualifying.

as for the kilo, I read that it is 30% aerobic, so you obviously need good fitness. the kilo also requires the best lactate tolerance of any cycling event.

i agree with velomanct, you may not need to do long slow rides, but you with have to do some longer rides to beable to fit in 10 or so sprint intervals with 5 to 10 minutes recovery rides, you can't just sprint once and stop! but you will have to build a pretty good aeorobic engine, before you can start working upon lactacte tolerances, the problem is Long slow rides, provide the endurance, the longer tempo rides provide you with a good aerobic engine and your sprint and power intervals should help you build your speed, a good foundation is firstly required.

which most people will tell you as for sitting around, sitting around on rollers keeping your legs in motion? with the occassional rest.

closesupport said:

i agree with velomanct, you may not need to do long slow rides, but you with have to do some longer rides to beable to fit in 10 or so sprint intervals with 5 to 10 minutes recovery rides, you can't just sprint once and stop! but you will have to build a pretty good aeorobic engine, before you can start working upon lactacte tolerances, the problem is Long slow rides, provide the endurance, the longer tempo rides provide you with a good aerobic engine and your sprint and power intervals should help you build your speed, a good foundation is firstly required.

which most people will tell you as for sitting around, sitting around on rollers keeping your legs in motion? with the occassional rest.

My coach had me do these crazy hard intervals today. 6x30 secs big gear seated sprints with 1 minute recovery inbetween. I was dying! The 15 minutes following that interval session, I averaged about 70watts. But I eventually came back to earth and felt good for the remainder of the ride.

My kilo power is going to shoot up with that kind of workout.

velomanct said:

My coach had me do these crazy hard intervals today. 6x30 secs big gear seated sprints with 1 minute recovery inbetween. I was dying! The 15 minutes following that interval session, I averaged about 70watts. But I eventually came back to earth and felt good for the remainder of the ride.

My kilo power is going to shoot up with that kind of workout.

i did a number of one legged intervals earlier on a 12% slope 53x19 at 7mph which was a killer, the bike was everywhere as i struggled to turn the crank the majority of my ride was climbing as normal well all except one part that i was exceeding 30mph when i realised i was being trailed by a police van, who shook his head at me as he passed ...lol

but other than that it was playing catchup and drop if possible, all except one guy an older guy gotta give him credit he had a good 2000m on me to start and when i eventually caught him up it was after about 3miles that i closed the gap.

this was when i realised that he was doing 24mph in 53x19 on the hill we where climbing and i hadn't bothered to change gears from 53x12, but i gotta admit it was fun to be back on the road even though the road seams in worse condition than last year.

closesupport said:

i did a number of one legged intervals earlier on a 12% slope 53x19 at 7mph which was a killer

One legged intervals on a 12% climb?

steve said:

One legged intervals on a 12% climb?

yip 12% gathhurst orrel, wigan. Painful, and you can imagine the bike was everywhere; anything but safe but you gotta get them in somewhere and i find it the best place to practise, since i get to give one leg time to recover whilst the other is working and hopefully it will grow me the thighs that i want for summer, and help me turn out the watts that i want this time next year.

Rick claims they are only of benefit to a one legged cyclist, but i find it helps me with my pedal stroke and using 100% of the rotation to apply the power.

closesupport said:

yip 12% gathhurst orrel

can you get this on video?

steve said:

can you get this on video?

get what on video? the 12% climb or me struggling on the 12%. my knees are killing me today but they'll be alreat come tuesday..

closesupport said:

get what on video? the 12% climb or me struggling on the 12%. my knees are killing me today but they'll be alreat come tuesday..

i think Steve meant: can we get a video of you pretending to ride up a 12% grade singled legged.

Walter it would be hugely impressive to have a video of this and all your other "exploits".

Ric

ric_stern/RST said:

i think Steve meant: can we get a video of you pretending to ride up a 12% grade singled legged.

Walter it would be hugely impressive to have a video of this and all your other "exploits".

Ric

It would yes! you fancy a drive around the uk with the video camera, or even get someone else to drive and you can ride along. Could be fun, fancy a holiday i'll put you up for a week or 2 for the crack.

Anyhow, why your there. pain in the muscles above the knees and i ain't refferring to quads, the doctor has prescribed me diclofenac tablets 50mg to ease the pain. any suggestions. other than don't mash out big gears on climbs attend the gym istead and do squats, the last 3days have been hard and the pain is getting worse 😄 especially after todays ride with the wind.

Fixey said:

I disagree with a good portion of what you say here. Why do you attach the word "Endurance" to slow rides? I have personal experiance with Gym/fast trainers only and I can tell you from my experiance they all blow before the end of a meeting. I am very surprised no one has mentioned muscle firing paterns or building a "base". I do 300 - 400km a week of season at a low slow pace. I do mabey 150km in season though, and that is to aid in lactate removal and recovery. Just my opinion.

Where did I mention slow riding?

ed073 said:

Where did I mention slow riding?

Your post wasnt a reply to a specific post so I assumed you where answering directly to the original question which was "Why would he do long slow rides as part of his training.".......your response started.... "endurance rides are not a priority for sprint event training. Maybe get out on the road once or twice a week to break up the monotony of track/gym." thus I assumed you where equating long slow miles with endurance....was I mistaken?

velomanct said:

My coach had me do these crazy hard intervals today. 6x30 secs big gear seated sprints with 1 minute recovery inbetween. I was dying! The 15 minutes following that interval session, I averaged about 70watts. But I eventually came back to earth and felt good for the remainder of the ride.

My kilo power is going to shoot up with that kind of workout.

Out of curiosity, what gears were you running the intervals in? Thx.