Squeaky bottom bracket

Todd Tracy said:

The sound is most common when riding at a moderate
speed on flat ground.

And the sound stops if you stop pedaling?

On 3 Mar 2005 18:36:25 -0800, "Todd Tracy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I have a Trek 2300 aluminum frame road bike that I recently converted
from an Ultegra double ring setup to triples (9-speed). Now there is
an annoying metallic creak or ticking sound coming from the area around
the bottom bracket. The sound is most common when riding at a moderate
speed on flat ground. It is not as frequent when climbing, and pretty
much disappears whenever I stand.

When I replaced the bottom bracket, I greased the threads thoroughly,
as well as the spindle before putting the cranks on, and torqued
everything to Shimano's specifications. Should I reinstall the BB with
a mild Loctite or anti-seize instead of grease to get rid of the sound?
Or is there something else I am missing? I checked all of the
chainring bolts, and they are tight. The bike rides fine, nothing
feels loose or wobbly.

Any suggestings would be greatly appreciated.

Todd Tracy

I fixed a squeak in my 2300's bb by greasing inside the Shimano cup.

Todd Tracy said:

Hi all,

I have a Trek 2300 aluminum frame road bike that I recently converted
from an Ultegra double ring setup to triples (9-speed). Now there is
an annoying metallic creak or ticking sound coming from the area around
the bottom bracket. The sound is most common when riding at a moderate
speed on flat ground. It is not as frequent when climbing, and pretty
much disappears whenever I stand.

When I replaced the bottom bracket, I greased the threads thoroughly,
as well as the spindle before putting the cranks on, and torqued
everything to Shimano's specifications. Should I reinstall the BB with
a mild Loctite or anti-seize instead of grease to get rid of the sound?
Or is there something else I am missing? I checked all of the
chainring bolts, and they are tight. The bike rides fine, nothing
feels loose or wobbly.

Any suggestings would be greatly appreciated.

Todd Tracy

If that proves ineffective, check the seat rails and post. More than once, I have tracked an elusive noise such as you describe to this source, when I was sure it sounded like it was originating in the BB.
Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free of lubrication of any kind.
Dan Burkhar[d]t

Todd Tracy said:

Hi all,

I have a Trek 2300 aluminum frame road bike that I recently converted
from an Ultegra double ring setup to triples (9-speed). Now there is
an annoying metallic creak or ticking sound coming from the area

around

Quoted message said:

the bottom bracket. The sound is most common when riding at a

moderate

Quoted message said:

speed on flat ground. It is not as frequent when climbing, and

pretty

Quoted message said:

much disappears whenever I stand.

I went through the same when I replaced the BB on my Cannondale. While
I was debating what to do about it, over the course of perhaps a month,
it went away.

dianne_1234 said:

On 3 Mar 2005 18:36:25 -0800, "Todd Tracy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I have a Trek 2300 aluminum frame road bike that I recently converted

Quoted message said:

from an Ultegra double ring setup to triples (9-speed). Now there is

Quoted message said:

an annoying metallic creak or ticking sound coming from the area around
the bottom bracket. The sound is most common when riding at a moderate
speed on flat ground. It is not as frequent when climbing, and pretty
much disappears whenever I stand.

When I replaced the bottom bracket, I greased the threads thoroughly,
as well as the spindle before putting the cranks on, and torqued
everything to Shimano's specifications. Should I reinstall the BB with
a mild Loctite or anti-seize instead of grease to get rid of the sound?
Or is there something else I am missing? I checked all of the
chainring bolts, and they are tight. The bike rides fine, nothing
feels loose or wobbly.

Any suggestings would be greatly appreciated.

Todd Tracy

I fixed a squeak in my 2300's bb by greasing inside the Shimano cup.

Many things it could be. Grease inside the BB shell, inside the left BB
cup, grease on the Octalink tapers, cranks installed TIGHT. Could be
pedals as well, loose cogset( a wee bit of grease onto thew outside of
the freehub body doesn't hurt, lockring tight!.

Most times it's lousy installation.

Dan Burkhart said:

Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
of lubrication of any kind.

That's fighting talk!

(For what it's worth, the instructions that come with a TA bottom
bracket explicitly state to grease the threads AND the tapers...)

"Todd Tracy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all,

I have a Trek 2300 aluminum frame road bike that I recently converted
from an Ultegra double ring setup to triples (9-speed). Now there is
an annoying metallic creak or ticking sound coming from the area around
the bottom bracket. The sound is most common when riding at a moderate
speed on flat ground. It is not as frequent when climbing, and pretty
much disappears whenever I stand.

When I replaced the bottom bracket, I greased the threads thoroughly,
as well as the spindle before putting the cranks on, and torqued
everything to Shimano's specifications. Should I reinstall the BB with
a mild Loctite or anti-seize instead of grease to get rid of the sound?
Or is there something else I am missing? I checked all of the
chainring bolts, and they are tight. The bike rides fine, nothing
feels loose or wobbly.

Any suggestings would be greatly appreciated.

Todd Tracy

It might be worth checking the seat clamp. I was sure one of my bikes was
creaking from the pedal area (until I tightened the seat...)

--
Scott Ehardt
http://www.scehardt.com

Quoted message said:

Dan Burkhart said:

Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
of lubrication of any kind.

Zog The Undeniable said:

That's fighting talk!
(For what it's worth, the instructions that come with a TA bottom
bracket explicitly state to grease the threads AND the tapers...)

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB"
section in the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme
which agrees.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

quote='A Muzi' Dan Burkhart said:

Quoted message said:

Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
of lubrication of any kind.

Zog The Undeniable said:

That's fighting talk!
(For what it's worth, the instructions that come with a TA bottom
bracket explicitly state to grease the threads AND the tapers...)

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB"
section in the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme
which agrees.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971[/QUOTE]

Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33 "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces of the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of this is to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces are held together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm to go on further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not more secure if arrived at by using lubrication."
For what it's worth.
Dan

Dan Burkhart said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
> of lubrication of any kind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's fighting talk! (For what it's worth, the instructions that
come with a TA bottom bracket explicitly state to grease the
threads AND the tapers...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section in
the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Quoted message said:

Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33

# "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces of
# the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of this is
# to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces are held
# together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm to go on
# further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not more secure if
# arrived at by using lubrication."

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth.

That isn't worth much. In fact it underscores that that manual is
rife with old wive's tales as is evident in the wheel building
portion. If Barnett's believes friction is holding the crank he has
no concept of high stress mechanical interfaces. I'd be curious to
know how the existence of left hand threads on BB and left cranks are
explained in that manual.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

quote=''Dan Burkhart said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
> of lubrication of any kind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's fighting talk! (For what it's worth, the instructions that
come with a TA bottom bracket explicitly state to grease the
threads AND the tapers...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section in
the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Quoted message said:

Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33

# "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces of
# the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of this is
# to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces are held
# together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm to go on
# further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not more secure if
# arrived at by using lubrication."

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth.

That isn't worth much. In fact it underscores that that manual is
rife with old wive's tales as is evident in the wheel building
portion. If Barnett's believes friction is holding the crank he has
no concept of high stress mechanical interfaces. I'd be curious to
know how the existence of left hand threads on BB and left cranks are
explained in that manual.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden][/QUOTE]

Hmm. What about this assertion from the Park Tool page.
" Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough to keep arms from creaking."
Would this also qualify as old wives tales?
Dan

Dan Burkhart said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be
>>> free of lubrication of any kind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> That's fighting talk! (For what it's worth, the instructions
>> that come with a TA bottom bracket explicitly state to grease
>> the threads AND the tapers...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section
> in the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

# "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces
# of the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of
# this is to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces
# are held together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm
# to go on further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not
# more secure if arrived at by using lubrication."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That isn't worth much. In fact it underscores that that manual is
rife with old wive's tales as is evident in the wheel building
portion. If Barnett's believes friction is holding the crank he
has no concept of high stress mechanical interfaces. I'd be
curious to know how the existence of left hand threads on BB and
left cranks are explained in that manual.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html

Quoted message said:

Hmm. What about this assertion from the Park Tool page.

Quoted message said:

"Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press
fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered
with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough
to keep arms from creaking."

Quoted message said:

Would this also qualify as old wives tales?

Yes, but the Barnett's assessment of the spindle transmitting its load
by friction is glaringly wrong as is their belief that with lubricant
the crank will go too far up the spindle. As is explained in the FAQ
cited, cranks continually move on the spindle as pedal spindles do in
the crank. The oxide layer in the square bore of the crank is not a
lubricant. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, but in this case (typically
a shiny bore), the oxide has no effect on the press fit.

So now let me ask you what you believe on this subject and why? I've
given you my perspective, with reasoning why this is so, and means by
which you can verify the matter while the ones you cite do nothing of
the kind.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

A Muzi said:

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section in the
21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Was this the first cycling magazine to arrive at the three week old
Yellow Jersey co-operative?

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

Dan Burkhart said:

...
Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
of lubrication of any kind.

Note the uneven application of grease on this small tapir:
<http://www.raincitystory.com/images/tapir.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth

(attribution?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be
>>>>free of lubrication of any kind.

(attribution?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>That's fighting talk! (For what it's worth, the instructions
>>>that come with a TA bottom bracket explicitly state to grease
>>>the threads AND the tapers...)

(am)>>>>>TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset
and BB" section

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>in the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

(attribution?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33
# "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces
# of the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of
# this is to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces
# are held together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm
# to go on further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not
# more secure if arrived at by using lubrication."
>For what it's worth.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That isn't worth much. In fact it underscores that that manual is
rife with old wive's tales as is evident in the wheel building
portion. If Barnett's believes friction is holding the crank he
has no concept of high stress mechanical interfaces. I'd be
curious to know how the existence of left hand threads on BB and
left cranks are explained in that manual.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html

Quoted message said:

Dan Burkhart said:

Hmm. What about this assertion from the Park Tool page.
"Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of

this press

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered
with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough
to keep arms from creaking."
Would this also qualify as old wives tales?

Quoted message said:

Yes, but the Barnett's assessment of the spindle transmitting its load
by friction is glaringly wrong as is their belief that with lubricant
the crank will go too far up the spindle. As is explained in the FAQ
cited, cranks continually move on the spindle as pedal spindles do in
the crank. The oxide layer in the square bore of the crank is not a
lubricant. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, but in this case (typically
a shiny bore), the oxide has no effect on the press fit.
So now let me ask you what you believe on this subject and why? I've
given you my perspective, with reasoning why this is so, and means by
which you can verify the matter while the ones you cite do nothing of
the kind.

Report from the field.

Yes, I've always lubricated tapers and, heck, anything metal
to metal unless I had a darned good reason not to ( a case
of which doesn't come to mind easily). That was 'best
practice' here when I started and in fact had a ritual -
wiping oil across the ends with a finger. At the first shop
I worked at it was grease. I say 'best practice' because I'm
not sure it was _every_ bike but certainly every expensive bike.

Anyway from the late seventies through middle eighties a
very common service was 'remount crank' with a bike anywhere
from a week to a couple of months old and both taper and
fastener bone dry (from other shops) . 90% LH as always,
but we removed the other one and lubed/torqued both. If you
ever needed a clear pattern that was it. Our bikes didn't
come back with the crank in the owner's hand. By 1975 it was
absolutely part of bike assembly checklists here.

I realize others have different experience. I'm guessing
that early inexpensive aluminum cranks with nutted spindles
may not have been as tolerant of poor assembly technique as
today's better equipment. So now you won't be as likely to
lose an arm as with early models when you forget or refuse
to lube your tapers.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

A Muzi said:

TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section in
the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Tom Sherman said:

Was this the first cycling magazine to arrive at the three week old
Yellow Jersey co-operative?

It has the Raymond Poulidor <<par lui-meme >> interview. I
couldn't resist, even at ff4, US$2 which was a lot at the time.

I didn't work here then.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

quote=''Dan Burkhart said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be
>>> free of lubrication of any kind.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> That's fighting talk! (For what it's worth, the instructions
>> that come with a TA bottom bracket explicitly state to grease
>> the threads AND the tapers...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> TA put a 3-page "how to install your TA crankset and BB" section
> in the 21 April, 1971 issue of l'Equipe Cyclisme which agrees.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sez here in the book of Barnett,chapter 20,verse 33

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

# "Prepare the arm for installation by cleaning the mating surfaces
# of the spindle and arm with acetone or alcohol. The purpose of
# this is to remove any traces of lubricant. Since these two pieces
# are held together by friction, grease or oil may enable the arm
# to go on further(not necessarily a good idea). Further is not
# more secure if arrived at by using lubrication."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what it's worth.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That isn't worth much. In fact it underscores that that manual is
rife with old wive's tales as is evident in the wheel building
portion. If Barnett's believes friction is holding the crank he
has no concept of high stress mechanical interfaces. I'd be
curious to know how the existence of left hand threads on BB and
left cranks are explained in that manual.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/installing-cranks.html
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/breaking-cranks.html

Quoted message said:

Hmm. What about this assertion from the Park Tool page.

Quoted message said:

"Aluminum cranks typically do not require lubrication of this press
fit. Aluminum by its nature is self-lubricating as it is covered
with a thin layer of oxidation. Adequate torque is typically enough
to keep arms from creaking."

Quoted message said:

Would this also qualify as old wives tales?

Yes, but the Barnett's assessment of the spindle transmitting its load
by friction is glaringly wrong as is their belief that with lubricant
the crank will go too far up the spindle. As is explained in the FAQ
cited, cranks continually move on the spindle as pedal spindles do in
the crank. The oxide layer in the square bore of the crank is not a
lubricant. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, but in this case (typically
a shiny bore), the oxide has no effect on the press fit.

So now let me ask you what you believe on this subject and why? I've
given you my perspective, with reasoning why this is so, and means by
which you can verify the matter while the ones you cite do nothing of
the kind.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden][/QUOTE]
Dear Jobst
I came to this subject with pre concieved notions to be sure, but not a firm belief. I am open to being convinced of the error of those notions.
It occurs to me however, that there are two issues at play here, one being crank retention, the other being transmission of power. You seem to be focusing mostly on the latter.
I base my acceptance of what I have been previously taught on the fact that the purpose of lubrication, by it's very definition is the reduction of friction between moving parts. Since the interface of crank on spindle do not move in relation to each other, or at least if they do, such motion should not be aided and encouraged by means of lubrication, I find it reasonable that this mounting should by dry, or treated with a locking compound such as loctite.
Some here, however, with much more experience than I will have time to accumulate over what remains of my life, seem to be lined up on your side of this issue, so I will only say that for now, I continue to mount em dry, but I will bear in mind what has been said here, and try to make my own objective observations.

quote='Tom Sherman'Dan Burkhart said:

...
Also, if your spindle is a square taper (tapir?) , it should be free
of lubrication of any kind.

Note the uneven application of grease on this small tapir:
<http://www.raincitystory.com/images/tapir.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth[/QUOTE]
Couldn't make out if that was brown grease on a white critter, or white grease on brown.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would this also qualify as old wives tales?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, but the Barnett's assessment of the spindle transmitting its load
by friction is glaringly wrong as is their belief that with lubricant
the crank will go too far up the spindle. As is explained in the FAQ
cited, cranks continually move on the spindle as pedal spindles do in
the crank. The oxide layer in the square bore of the crank is not a
lubricant. Aluminum oxide is an abrasive, but in this case (typically
a shiny bore), the oxide has no effect on the press fit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So now let me ask you what you believe on this subject and why? I've
given you my perspective, with reasoning why this is so, and means by
which you can verify the matter while the ones you cite do nothing of
the kind.

Dan Burkhart said:

I came to this subject with pre concieved notions to be sure, but not
a firm belief. I am open to being convinced of the error of those
notions.
It occurs to me however, that there are two issues at play here, one
being crank retention, the other being transmission of power. You seem
to be focusing mostly on the latter.
I base my acceptance of what I have been previously taught on the fact
that the purpose of lubrication, by it's very definition is the
reduction of friction between moving parts. Since the interface of
crank on spindle do not move in relation to each other, or at least if
they do, such motion should not be aided and encouraged by means of
lubrication, I find it reasonable that this mounting should by dry, or
treated with a locking compound such as loctite.
Some here, however, with much more experience than I will have time to
accumulate over what remains of my life, seem to be lined up on your
side of this issue, so I will only say that for now, I continue to
mount em dry, but I will bear in mind what has been said here, and try
to make my own objective observations.

I think I can help. You write "Since the interface of
crank on spindle do not move in relation to each other".

That's not correct.

That interface moves. There's no way that loktite could
possibly keep an arm from squirming on a taper ( or a spline
for that matter). It is just magnitudes deficient for the
forces involved.

That cranks squirm or move is evident in the ubiquitous
rouge one sees on removal.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971