Grotesque

41 said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really, really,
really bad taste?

You want some cheese with that whine? Tastes differ. I find that black
sidewalls show less dirt, which reduces maintenance time. Not that I
wash my bike that often anyways.

Here's lots of skinwall tires:
http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/tires_tubes/
with one psychadelicwall:
http://www.rivbike.com/images/catpics/10-054.jpg

Jeff

"41" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really, really,
really bad taste?

Agreed...of course you can get Michelins in some really sexy colors. Have
you seen the selection of silver bars and stems lately? Apparently some
peoples taste is only in their mouth.
hr

JeffWills said:

41 said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really,

really,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

really bad taste?

You want some cheese with that whine?

No, I want some rave with that rant. There is a difference

Quoted message said:

Tastes differ.

Apparently not at the tire companies, who all insist on black only.

Quoted message said:

Here's lots of skinwall tires:

In 700C there, you have the Pasela, which is OK, but has far too much
pattern in the tread and a raised midsection. Then you have their own
models, which would be just fine if they weren't full of kevlar (casing
as well as any belts), very overpriced, and didn't have silly names and
logos.

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a feature
because you can see and check the cords.

The Road Winner was nearly ideal and about $12 a pop. It's only problem
was that it was too good. Couldn't have that, could we?

Quoted message said:

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a feature
because you can see and check the cords.

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with black
sidewalls have experienced considerably less cord fraying than those with
lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about this; if you're going to
cover light-colored casing with a coating that's black, the amount you're
going to have to use (to make sure that nothing's showing through) will
ensure that you have a fair amount of protective material on the casing.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"41" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JeffWills said:

41 said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really,

really,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

really bad taste?

You want some cheese with that whine?

No, I want some rave with that rant. There is a difference

Quoted message said:

Tastes differ.

Apparently not at the tire companies, who all insist on black only.

Quoted message said:

Here's lots of skinwall tires:

In 700C there, you have the Pasela, which is OK, but has far too much
pattern in the tread and a raised midsection. Then you have their own
models, which would be just fine if they weren't full of kevlar (casing
as well as any belts), very overpriced, and didn't have silly names and
logos.

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a feature
because you can see and check the cords.

The Road Winner was nearly ideal and about $12 a pop. It's only problem
was that it was too good. Couldn't have that, could we?

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a

feature

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because you can see and check the cords.

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with

black

Quoted message said:

sidewalls have experienced cons iderably less cord fraying than those

with

Quoted message said:

lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about this; if you're

going to

Quoted message said:

cover light-colored casing with a coating that's black, the amount

you're

Quoted message said:

going to have to use (to make sure that nothing's sh owing through)

will

Quoted message said:

ensure that you have a fair amount of protective material on the

casing.

Seems doubtful because in tires available in either black or tan
(either concurrently, or after model replacement), the weights stay
exactly the same.

Of course no tan skinwall tires have any extra reinforcement whilst
gumwalls and some blackwalls do, but that's another matter. Tire for
tire, there seems to be no extra material there. Perhaps at most some
UV protection, which might matter for nylon cords but not others, but
presumably the manufacturers are not so stupid as to put nylon cords in
without any UV protection. Otherwise they would fail very quickly.

So perhaps the explanation is that because of the black, you just don't
notice the fraying. What you don't know can't hurt you?

41 said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really, really,
really bad taste?

#$%!@!*$#%%!@!!!!!

I only buy black sidewalls. Gives your bike that clean "stealth" look. 🙂

--

Let the bridges I burn light my way...

myself I want to see more tires with reflective strips.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On 2 Mar 2005 20:42:05 -0800, "41" <[email hidden]> may have

Quoted message said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

Good!

Quoted message said:

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell?

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which include carbon
black are more durable than those which do not[1], the reason that
they should have black sidewalls is self-evident. Durability in
applications where the material is exposed to sunlight is the issue.

Quoted message said:

Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really, really,
really bad taste?

No. There's a persistent myth that was born in the middle of the 20th
century, long since rendered fallacious by material improvements,
which holds that gumwall tires are always superior to blackwall. It
was only a half-truth at best when it originated, and it's a whole
fallacy now. It appears that the tire makers' marketing departments
have finally begun listening to what their engineers have been telling
them for 40 years or more...and it also appears that at long last, the
myth is losing its grip on the tire buyers so that these improved
tires can at last be sold.

I note, on the other hand, that one of the cheapest 27" tires on the
market continues to be supplied with gumwall construction.

For the fashion snobs, I will observe that a bottle of tan shoe
coloring compound will conceal an unsightly black sidewall without
compromising its utility. Use of this will not make your bike go
faster, alas.

[1] With the exception of silicone rubber compounds, where carbon
black does not provide the same advantage.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:14:42 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

may have said:

Quoted message said:

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a feature
because you can see and check the cords.

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with black
sidewalls have experienced considerably less cord fraying than those with
lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about this; if you're going to
cover light-colored casing with a coating that's black, the amount you're
going to have to use (to make sure that nothing's showing through) will
ensure that you have a fair amount of protective material on the casing.

The opacity of the black material is such that it can be as thin as,
or even thinner than the gum and not let the cords show through. Its
durability and relative impermeability does, as you posit, reduce the
deterioration of the cords at the same time. Gum was used for the
sidewalls of racing tires due to the early difficulty of compounding
extremely flexible materials with carbon black in them; that hasn't
been a valid issue for a long time, but the demand for the factually
inferior product continued, and until recently was adequate to cause
the supply to be maintained. The myth appears to be losing its grip
as people discover precisely what you've observed; with black
sidewalls, you don't need to check the cords for the fraying that's
not happening.

Of course, having said this, an entire army of gum purists will now
rise from the grave and descend upon the gates of the tire makers,
mindlessly demanding that the gumwall tires be returned to their place
of prominence. 'Twas ever thus.

(I will allow that there may be one place where a gumwall still has a
valid purpose, and that might be in tubular tires, but only if gum is
easier to get a good glue bond with than black. By preference, I try
to avoid having to deal with tubulars, however, so I have no knowledge
of any actual advantage of the material in that area.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

41 said:

www.irctire.com/tires/road_winner_ii.html
www.irctire.com/tires/tandem.html
www.irctire.com/tires/triathlon.html

Now with black sidewalls. #!#%&*$#@!!!

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really, really,
really bad taste?

#$%!@!*$#%%!@!!!!!

Around here, given 2 identical tires to buy, most people will buy the
solid black tire.

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Werehatrack said:

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which include carbon
black are more durable than those which do not[1], the reason that
they should have black sidewalls is self-evident. Durability in
applications where the material is exposed to sunlight is the issue.

In today's market with indexed gear systems that go out of adjustment
if the bike is left alone in a darkened garage, carbon frames that
delaminate if you accidentally SPIT on them, Aluminum frames crack
with only 10 years' use, and now tire companies are saying that
"durability" matters?? GIMMEEE A BREAK !!!

I think they are simply taking cost out of the product, or trying to
find ways to lighten the product. I do not believe that the black
sidewalled tires are one iota better than the gumwall tires.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Werehatrack said:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:14:42 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

may have said:

Quoted message said:

While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a feature
because you can see and check the cords.

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with black
sidewalls have experienced considerably less cord fraying than those with
lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about this; if you're going to
cover light-colored casing with a coating that's black, the amount you're
going to have to use (to make sure that nothing's showing through) will
ensure that you have a fair amount of protective material on the casing.

The opacity of the black material is such that it can be as thin as,
or even thinner than the gum and not let the cords show through. Its
durability and relative impermeability does, as you posit, reduce the
deterioration of the cords at the same time. Gum was used for the
sidewalls of racing tires due to the early difficulty of compounding
extremely flexible materials with carbon black in them; that hasn't
been a valid issue for a long time, but the demand for the factually
inferior product continued, and until recently was adequate to cause
the supply to be maintained. The myth appears to be losing its grip
as people discover precisely what you've observed; with black
sidewalls, you don't need to check the cords for the fraying that's
not happening.

Of course, having said this, an entire army of gum purists will now
rise from the grave and descend upon the gates of the tire makers,
mindlessly demanding that the gumwall tires be returned to their place
of prominence. 'Twas ever thus.

(I will allow that there may be one place where a gumwall still has a
valid purpose, and that might be in tubular tires, but only if gum is
easier to get a good glue bond with than black. By preference, I try
to avoid having to deal with tubulars, however, so I have no knowledge
of any actual advantage of the material in that area.)

That all sounds reasonable. I have a question though. I have been
riding Continental Ultra 2000 700x25 tires for a while now (just
bought some more for < $10 at performance) and they seem to roll just
fine, last about 2000-3000 miles, look good, and have a nice slick
tread. What am I missing by not using a "better" tire?

There are not any mountains around here, so maybe it is just the
minimal demands I make of a tire which allows me to use these
brown-sided, cheap things.

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which include
carbon black are more durable than those which do not[1], the
reason that they should have black sidewalls is self-evident.
Durability in applications where the material is exposed to
sunlight is the issue.

Quoted message said:

In today's market with indexed gear systems that go out of
adjustment if the bike is left alone in a darkened garage, carbon
frames that delaminate if you accidentally SPIT on them, Aluminum
frames crack with only 10 years' use, and now tire companies are
saying that "durability" matters?? GIMMEEE A BREAK !!!

Quoted message said:

I think they are simply taking cost out of the product, or trying to
find ways to lighten the product. I do not believe that the black
sidewalled tires are one iota better than the gumwall tires.

Hey! Cut it out. You're trampling on the beliefs of the faithful.
The customers want black, black goggles, frames, rims, tires, spokes,
and above all black SUV's with black windows. It took awhile but the
"Black is Beautiful" slogan finally landed on pay dirt.

No, tires have not gotten better and are heavier for the black coating
of those that aren't just colored black. I also suspect that the
black covers a lower TPI as Continental has done for years with their
kite string casings in dark brown. Extra sidewall and interior rubber
also affects RR but who cares, image comes first. Just ask our CA
governor, Arnoldt as he says it. Dive a HUMVEE:

http://www.tamiya.com/english/show0305/humvee.jpg

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 18:57:29 GMT,
jobs[t].brand[t]@stanfordalumni.org wrote:

[snip non-ran[t]]

Quoted message said:

Just ask our CA
governor, Arnoldt as he says it. Dive a HUMVEE:

http://www.tamiya.com/english/show0305/humvee.jpg

Jobs[t] Brand[t]
jobs[t].brand[t]@stanford[t]alumni.org

Dear Jobs[t],

Ignoring your usual weird[t] ran[t] about black SUVs, wha[t]
are those thingies on the ends of your firs[t] and las[t]
names?

I've heard[t] tha[t] one or both of them are silen[t] in
shame when prounced[t] aloud[t], but they do stick ou[t] in
prin[t].

Of course, like you, I'm appalled[t] by Teutonic names.

Car[l] Foge[l]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

Quoted message said:

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which

include

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

carbon black are more durable than those which do not[1],

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason that they should have black sidewalls is

self-evident.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Durability in applications where the material is exposed to
sunlight is the issue.

Quoted message said:

In today's market with indexed gear systems that go out of
adjustment if the bike is left alone in a darkened garage,

carbon

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

frames that delaminate if you accidentally SPIT on them,

Aluminum

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

frames crack with only 10 years' use, and now tire companies

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

saying that "durability" matters?? GIMMEEE A BREAK !!!

Quoted message said:

I think they are simply taking cost out of the product, or

trying to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

find ways to lighten the product. I do not believe that the

black

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sidewalled tires are one iota better than the gumwall tires.

Hey! Cut it out. You're trampling on the beliefs of the

faithful.

Quoted message said:

The customers want black, black goggles, frames, rims, tires,

spokes,

Quoted message said:

and above all black SUV's with black windows. It took awhile

but the

Quoted message said:

"Black is Beautiful" slogan finally landed on pay dirt.

No, tires have not gotten better and are heavier for the black

coating

Quoted message said:

of those that aren't just colored black. I also suspect that

the

Quoted message said:

black covers a lower TPI as Continental has done for years with

their

Quoted message said:

kite string casings in dark brown. Extra sidewall and interior

rubber

Quoted message said:

also affects RR but who cares, image comes first. Just ask our

CA

Quoted message said:

governor, Arnoldt as he says it. Dive a HUMVEE:

Hey, the Continental brown-walls are the tan-walls of today, and
they do show the cords -- which are like twine. I don't care
about sidewall color because all of my tires are black wall after
two days of riding in the rain, but I have found that the
typically black ruberized sidewalls seem to be more resistant to
mechanical injury (fuzzing) and UV rot than the old
see-the-cords-tan-walls. -- Jay Beattie.

Quoted message said:

also affects RR but who cares, image comes first. Just ask our CA
governor, Arnoldt as he says it. Dive a HUMVEE:

^^^^

Bottom of the ocean is a good place for 'em. Replace all those reefs
that are no more.

--
"People do!" - chevron

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with black
sidewalls have experienced considerably less cord fraying than those with
lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about this; if you're going to
cover light-colored casing with a coating that's black, the amount you're
going to have to use (to make sure that nothing's showing through) will
ensure that you have a fair amount of protective material on the casing.

I left a couple pairs of tires outside on my patio all winter. One pair
were blackwalls, another were skinwalls. Next spring, the blackwalls
were in great condition, but the exposed kevlar threads on the skinwalls
were all frayed. Turns out that some grades of kevlar can degrade when
exposed to ultraviolet light. Blackwalls protect the kevlar from UV.

J

Jim Smith said:

Werehatrack <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 07:14:42 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email hidden]> may have said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> While the names may be a matter of taste, tan sidewalls are a
> feature because you can see and check the cords.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Could be coincidence, but it's been my experience that tires with
black sidewalls have experienced considerably less cord fraying
than those with lighter-colored sidewalls. I do have a theory about
this; if you're going to cover light-colored casing with a coating
that's black, the amount you're going to have to use (to make sure
that nothing's showing through) will ensure that you have a fair
amount of protective material on the casing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The opacity of the black material is such that it can be as thin as,
or even thinner than the gum and not let the cords show through.

Many of these light colored sidewalls are just as thick as the black ones, and
vice versa. The only difference is the color. Most of the black ones, are
black all the way through. The rubberizing of the casing is just black instead
of tan.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its
durability and relative impermeability does, as you posit, reduce the
deterioration of the cords at the same time. Gum was used for the
sidewalls of racing tires due to the early difficulty of compounding
extremely flexible materials with carbon black in them; that hasn't
been a valid issue for a long time, but the demand for the factually
inferior product continued, and until recently was adequate to cause
the supply to be maintained. The myth appears to be losing its grip
as people discover precisely what you've observed; with black
sidewalls, you don't need to check the cords for the fraying that's
not happening.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course, having said this, an entire army of gum purists will now
rise from the grave and descend upon the gates of the tire makers,
mindlessly demanding that the gumwall tires be returned to their
place of prominence. 'Twas ever thus.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(I will allow that there may be one place where a gumwall still has a
valid purpose, and that might be in tubular tires, but only if gum is
easier to get a good glue bond with than black. By preference, I try
to avoid having to deal with tubulars, however, so I have no
knowledge of any actual advantage of the material in that area.)

Quoted message said:

That all sounds reasonable. I have a question though. I have been
riding Continental Ultra 2000 700x25 tires for a while now (just
bought some more for < $10 at performance) and they seem to roll just
fine, last about 2000-3000 miles, look good, and have a nice slick
tread. What am I missing by not using a "better" tire?

At that price, nothing!

Quoted message said:

There are not any mountains around here, so maybe it is just the
minimal demands I make of a tire which allows me to use these
brown-sided, cheap things.

Well, they do work fine for many people, but others seem to suffer sidewall cuts
and fraying. I notice this on club rides -- Contis with strings hanging off,
cuts patched with Shoe Goo, etc.

I saw that deal at Performance, but bought some sturdier Vredesteins instead,
for $20 apiece. The glass and gravel is really bad this winter. I don't mind
if a $10 tire wears out quickly, but I don't like being stranded.

Rather tthan obsess over the perfect tire, it makes sense to shop for the best
value among available choices. There are many factors involved in "best value,"
which are different for everyone.

Matt O.

Steve Knight said:

myself I want to see more tires with reflective strips.

How about reflective labels?

Matt O.