Grotesque

W A S A T C H said:

I only buy black sidewalls. Gives your bike that clean "stealth"
look. 🙂

Dunno about stealth, but they definately look cleaner.

Matt O.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 13:26:30 -0600, Jim Smith <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Quoted message said:

also affects RR but who cares, image comes first. Just ask our CA
governor, Arnoldt as he says it. Dive a HUMVEE:

^^^^

Bottom of the ocean is a good place for 'em. Replace all those reefs
that are no more.

Yup. The metal diffusion from them makes the water less suitable than
it would have been for a while, but then the corroded metal stabilizes
and the wrecks provide structure. There was a plan to seed several
thousand wrecked cars on the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico in areas
where commercial overfishing has scoured all of the weeds to the point
that even the fishermen who caused the damage have given up on it.
When the plan was made public, the indignant screams of outrage from
those very same commercial fisherman were deafening. They'd killed
that part of the Gulf, and by God, it was going to damn well *stay*
dead if they had to bankrupt themselves to keep anything from growing
there ever again.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

03 Mar 2005 12:00:06 -0600 Werehatrack said:

(I will allow that there may be one place where a gumwall still has a
valid purpose, and that might be in tubular tires, but only if gum is
easier to get a good glue bond with than black. By preference, I try
to avoid having to deal with tubulars, however, so I have no knowledge
of any actual advantage of the material in that area.)

In days of yore, Wolber made an all-black tubular sold under the name
"Imperforable", but it became know, at least locally, as the
"insufferable." Its one feature was that it was inexpensive, but it
had many flaws, thus leading to its nickname. Nevertheless, it held
glue just fine.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
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Matt O'Toole said:

Steve Knight said:

myself I want to see more tires with reflective strips.

How about reflective labels?

that would be fine by me. it is just hard to find many tires I would want that
have any reflective material.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

Quoted message said:

03 Mar 2005 12:00:06 -0600 Werehatrack said:

(I will allow that there may be one place where a gumwall still has a
valid purpose, and that might be in tubular tires, but only if gum is
easier to get a good glue bond with than black. By preference, I try
to avoid having to deal with tubulars, however, so I have no knowledge
of any actual advantage of the material in that area.)

Jim Adney said:

In days of yore, Wolber made an all-black tubular sold under the name
"Imperforable", but it became know, at least locally, as the
"insufferable." Its one feature was that it was inexpensive, but it
had many flaws, thus leading to its nickname. Nevertheless, it held
glue just fine.

My memory does that too, sometimes, Jim.

The black one was the Wolber 'Renforce".

Raleighs came with Vittoria Insufferables - which weren't
actually bad tires at all IIRC. The Renforce was such coarse
fabric they died from lumps before wearing out.

I don't have any memory of the quality of Wolber's
Insufferable, a similar amber-sided long fiber cotton tubular.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Matt O'Toole said:

Dunno about stealth, but they definately look cleaner.

Matt O.

Oh, come on. Dream with me here.

--

Let the bridges I burn light my way...

04 Mar 2005 01:53:06 -0600 A Muzi said:

My memory does that too, sometimes, Jim.

The black one was the Wolber 'Renforce".

Oops, sorry. (I coulda sworn....)

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:10:13 -0700, W A S A T C H

may have said:

Matt O'Toole said:

Dunno about stealth, but they definately look cleaner.

Matt O.

Oh, come on. Dream with me here.

It really needs black rims to make it work.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
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Werehatrack said:

It really needs black rims to make it work.

Yup!

--

Let the bridges I burn light my way...

Steve Knight said:

myself I want to see more tires with reflective strips.

Rivendell again! They have Speedblend Ruffy Tuffys, which are
pretty cool if you're into being seen.

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/webalog/tires_tubes/10054.html

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
[email hidden] "You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

41 said:

JeffWills said:

41 said:

What is the matter with people these days, that tires must have
#$%@&!!ing black sidewalls to sell? Or is there some conspiracy of
fashion designers working in the tire industry, with really,
really, really bad taste?

Here's lots of skinwall tires:

In 700C there, you have the Pasela, which is OK, but has far too much
pattern in the tread and a raised midsection. Then you have their own
models, which would be just fine if they weren't full of kevlar (casing
as well as any belts), very overpriced, and didn't have silly names and
logos.

Rivendell "Ruffy Tuffys" (great name, btw) are about as good as a
tire gets. Kevlar bead and belt is good--especially the belting),
rhinoceros logo is good, wear rate is very good so far, and they just
feel excellent. They're too expensive but worth it to me for their
overall excellence. Plus they're made by Panaracer, whose name I
trust in bike tires. Whether or not you're going to buy your tires
based on the color of the sidewall, this is about as good as it gets.

Greg
--
Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?"
[email hidden] "You uudecode it."
http://zer0.org/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?"

Werehatrack said:

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which include carbon
black are more durable than those which do not[1], the reason that
they should have black sidewalls is self-evident. Durability in
applications where the material is exposed to sunlight is the issue.

This is written in a confusing way but you seem to be saying that
resistance to sunlight equals resistance to mechanical wear.

Quoted message said:

No. There's a persistent myth that was born in the middle of the

20th

Quoted message said:

century, long since rendered fallacious by material improvements,
which holds that gumwall tires are always superior to blackwall. It

Gumwall is a different matter. These tires are skinwall.

As I said before, nylon is easily damaged by UV and one would think the
manufacturers who use it would protect it adequately. However, rayon,
as I believe is used in these tires, is quite resistant to UV.

On 7 Mar 2005 01:53:12 -0800, "41" <[email hidden]> may have

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

To some of us, who understand why tire compounds which include carbon
black are more durable than those which do not[1], the reason that
they should have black sidewalls is self-evident. Durability in
applications where the material is exposed to sunlight is the issue.

This is written in a confusing way but you seem to be saying that
resistance to sunlight equals resistance to mechanical wear.

Resistance to sunlight indirectly equals resistance to mechanical
wear, since a compound which resists UV degradation will not be
abraded as fast and will not disintegrate physically as fast in actual
use as one which lacks that capability.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No. There's a persistent myth that was born in the middle of the

20th

Quoted message said:

century, long since rendered fallacious by material improvements,
which holds that gumwall tires are always superior to blackwall. It

Gumwall is a different matter. These tires are skinwall.

Skinwall still uses a semi-transparent compound which lacks the
cross-linking benefits that are obtained from carbon black (a
mechanical advantage) and the inherent UV resistance that it also
imparts, though this can be counterbalanced by the use of other UV
blocking agents. I will note, however, that none of the skinwalls
I've seen apparently had any such agents included; cracking and decay
of the skinwall after just a year or two seems far too common. In
practice, in my experience, a skinwall too often has the same lack of
durability as a gumwall, for what appears to be much the same reasons.
If there are skinwalls with good UV blocking agents in the compound,
that should overcome one issue, but a compound with carbon black will
still get the benefit of cross-linking in the form of the improved
toughness that it brings.

Quoted message said:

As I said before, nylon is easily damaged by UV and one would think the
manufacturers who use it would protect it adequately. However, rayon,
as I believe is used in these tires, is quite resistant to UV.

It matters little if the cords are resistant when the compound in
which they are embedded is not; when that degrades, the cords will be
subject to failure. Black compounds are less susceptible to
degradation than those without UV blocking agents, and for at least 40
years, black compounds every bit as flexible as the ones used in
skinwalls have been available. The persistent use of the
semi-transparent compound on the skinwall owes everything to the myth,
and not to any real advantage over black.

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Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
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Werehatrack said:

Skinwall still uses a semi-transparent compound which lacks the
cross-linking benefits that are obtained from carbon black (a
mechanical advantage)

Such cross-linking is not a desideratum for the sidewalls of
lightweight road tires. Instead, the objectives are flexibility,
tensile strength, low elasticity, and low hysteresis losses. These are
the properties of textiles (the cords), not rubber. Carbon black is a
high loss compound, as has been discussed here recently, for exampl e,
and so should be saved for the tread, where it is needed for a variety
of reasons. Heavy duty tires, such as off-road tires or car tires, are
another matter.

On the other hand, if UV is the problem,

Quoted message said:

this can be counterbalanced by the use of other U V
blocking agents. I will note, however, that none of the skinwalls
I've seen apparently had any such agents included; cracking and decay
of the skinwall after just a year or two seems far too common.

Tires lasting for a year or two? Need to rid e more...

More to the point, do you have a list of brands in particular?

Quoted message said:

If there are skinwalls with good UV blocking agents in the com pound,
that should overcome one issue, but a compound with carbon black will
still get the benefit of cross-lin king in the form of the improved
toughness that it brings.

Toughness, which is essentially the amount of energy that can be
absorbed before failure, is not precisely what is wanted in the
sidewalls of lightweight road tires, any more than it is in crepes or
steaks. We don't want the sidewalls to be absorbing any more energy
than they have to. If we chewed our sidewalls, as offroad riders do,
then high toughness would be an advantage. In lightweight road tires,
it is not.

Black or tan, the rubber layer on skinwalls is very thin. Do you really
think even a carbon black filled rubber can impart much toughness?

I don't know if there is enough to impart much additional rolling
resistance either, but since there are several models available both
ways, the matter is accessible to experiment. Perhaps someone with
experience in these matters, both in specifying the materials and doing
the rolling resistance tests, can comment??