muscles

valhalla said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Low carb is usually an abbreviation for an entire way of eating that is
low carb, moderate protein, high (comparatively) fat.

From the muscle POV, it's the moderate protein part that's important. This
means essentially that you get enough protein to build and preserve your
muscles and carry out other functions but not so much (yes, it really is
possible to have too much protein) as to cause problems from excess.

In my *experience* this puts low carb one up on most of the other diets
that I have tried. Looking back on them, I realize that in the effort to
cut fat as low as possible, they were also limiting protein to a
significant degree.

As a practical matter, again, in my experience, I'm doing far better on
sticking to and improving on my fitness goals while I'm lowcarbing than I
ever did when I was either on a low-fat diet or not following any
particular way of eating.

Martha

--
Sig pending

valhalla said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Thanks,

RSG

Both. It depends.

="valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Compared to a low calorie diet, it is definately a muscle saver. There is
lots of information available detailing this, and it is covered in Atkin's
book as well as Lyle McDonald's Ketogenic Diet.
Good luck!
Mark

"valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

In addition, check out these links: http://tinyurl.com/4jmt9

Mark

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden. By the
time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will be gone along with
the fat.

"valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Thanks,

RSG

Most of it won't be gone if he gets serious about some weight-bearing
exercise. You could have done the same thing.

--
Most people are dumb as bricks; some people are dumber than that. -- MFW

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden. By the
time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will be gone along
with
the fat.

"valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Thanks,

RSG

Cubit said:

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden. By
the time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will be gone
along with the fat.

What? That all depends on HOW the weight comes off. A lot of that "extra"
muscle can be kept, assuming that it's there.

Quoted message said:

"valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is low carb actually a muscle saver or the opposite?

Thanks,

RSG

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden. By the
time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will be gone along
with
the fat.

This is completely preventable. If you have information to the contrary,
please provide it.
Mark

Creating an expectation that 400 pound person will lose all the extra weight
and manage to retain an enhanced musculature is unrealistic.
I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.

My understanding is that enhanced musculature is built up during an
increased calorie & protein period. They then lose the limited amount of
fat that was added to be "cut."

A 400 pound person has an extraordinary amount of fat to lose. Calories
will need to be restricted for a LONG time. It is not the same thing as a
muscle builder dropping 10 or 20 pounds of fat.

Your point is theoretical. Mine is practical.

I can't cite examples. In my entire life, I have never known anyone in
person to lose as much as I have. For examples, I would have to look to the
media. Even on the TV show The Biggest Loser the subjects did not appear
heavily muscled after all the extreme exercise.

"Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden. By the
time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will be gone along
with
the fat.

This is completely preventable. If you have information to the contrary,
please provide it.
Mark

Cubit said:

Creating an expectation that 400 pound person will lose all the extra
weight and manage to retain an enhanced musculature is unrealistic.
I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.

You're full of it. You should stick to matters that you know something
about.

First off, most 400 lb people aren't necessarily that muscled. That
depends. However, a lot of those people will have a greater proportion of
lower body muscle than your typical non-athletic person. Those who lifted
weight due ot playing sports or something, could have significantly more
muslce than your average joe. if they continue to lift while losing, they
can hold on to a lot (not all) of that muscle.

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that enhanced musculature is built up during an
increased calorie & protein period. They then lose the limited
amount of fat that was added to be "cut."

Who is they? Are you referring to bodybuilders or your typical 400 lb fat
person?

Quoted message said:

A 400 pound person has an extraordinary amount of fat to lose.
Calories will need to be restricted for a LONG time.

That again depends. Some can lose very rapidly. However, if they lose more
slowly, they have a greater chance of keeping that muscle if they weight
train. Rapid weight loss due to extreme calorie deficit is more likely to
result in muscle loss than is slow weight loss. It's probably why your lost
your extra muscle mass, assuming you had any.

Quoted message said:

It is not the
same thing as a muscle builder dropping 10 or 20 pounds of fat.

So?

Quoted message said:

Your point is theoretical. Mine is practical.

So? Your experience is limited to just you. Your point is really based on
bad theory.

Quoted message said:

I can't cite examples.

Then why are you talking?

Quoted message said:

In my entire life, I have never known anyone
in person to lose as much as I have.

So? You don't even have experience upon which to base your statements.

For examples, I would have to

Quoted message said:

look to the media. Even on the TV show The Biggest Loser the
subjects did not appear heavily muscled after all the extreme
exercise.

??? Gosh...what makes you think they were heavily muscled before the
extreme exercise? You said yourself that the muscle is hidden (when it
fact, it probably wasn't even there, or if so, there was not that much extra
muscle.

Sad comments.

Quoted message said:

"Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden.
By the time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will
be gone along with
the fat.

This is completely preventable. If you have information to the
contrary, please provide it.
Mark

Roger,

Why are you never in the Robochallenge?

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

Creating an expectation that 400 pound person will lose all the extra
weight and manage to retain an enhanced musculature is unrealistic.
I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.

Quoted message said:

You're full of it.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

Creating an expectation that 400 pound person will lose all the extra
weight and manage to retain an enhanced musculature is unrealistic.
I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.

You're full of it. You should stick to matters that you know something
about.

First off, most 400 lb people aren't necessarily that muscled. That
depends. However, a lot of those people will have a greater proportion of
lower body muscle than your typical non-athletic person. Those who lifted
weight due ot playing sports or something, could have significantly more
muslce than your average joe. if they continue to lift while losing, they
can hold on to a lot (not all) of that muscle.

I do actually have alot of muscle. Many people do not think of me as
conventionally
fat because I am a big football player type.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My understanding is that enhanced musculature is built up during an
increased calorie & protein period. They then lose the limited
amount of fat that was added to be "cut."

Who is they? Are you referring to bodybuilders or your typical 400 lb fat
person?

Quoted message said:

A 400 pound person has an extraordinary amount of fat to lose.
Calories will need to be restricted for a LONG time.

That again depends. Some can lose very rapidly. However, if they lose more
slowly, they have a greater chance of keeping that muscle if they weight
train. Rapid weight loss due to extreme calorie deficit is more likely to
result in muscle loss than is slow weight loss. It's probably why your

lost

Quoted message said:

your extra muscle mass, assuming you had any.

Quoted message said:

It is not the
same thing as a muscle builder dropping 10 or 20 pounds of fat.

So?

Quoted message said:

Your point is theoretical. Mine is practical.

So? Your experience is limited to just you. Your point is really based

on

Quoted message said:

bad theory.

Quoted message said:

I can't cite examples.

Then why are you talking?

Quoted message said:

In my entire life, I have never known anyone
in person to lose as much as I have.

So? You don't even have experience upon which to base your statements.

For examples, I would have to

Quoted message said:

look to the media. Even on the TV show The Biggest Loser the
subjects did not appear heavily muscled after all the extreme
exercise.

??? Gosh...what makes you think they were heavily muscled before the
extreme exercise? You said yourself that the muscle is hidden (when it
fact, it probably wasn't even there, or if so, there was not that much

extra

Quoted message said:

muscle.

Sad comments.

Quoted message said:

"Mark McArthey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Cubit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> At 400 pounds you have an amazing mass of muscle. It is hidden.
> By the time you are normal weight most of that extra muscle will
> be gone along with
> the fat.
>
This is completely preventable. If you have information to the
contrary, please provide it.
Mark

Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Roger,

Why are you never in the Robochallenge?

Non sequitur.

Weight training during dieting helps minimize muscle tissue loss.

Quoted message said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cubit said:

Creating an expectation that 400 pound person will lose all the extra
weight and manage to retain an enhanced musculature is unrealistic.
I have never heard of anyone actually doing it.

Quoted message said:

You're full of it.

"Concordia (Suze)" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Roger,

Why are you never in the Robochallenge?

Non sequitur.

Good question though.

JC Der Koenig said:

"Concordia (Suze)" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Roger,

Why are you never in the Robochallenge?

Non sequitur.

Good question though.

Nonsense. I don't need robochallenge to lose weight. Do you? Cubit was
talking out of his ass and finally needed something to respond back with.

"valhalla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

First off, most 400 lb people aren't necessarily that muscled. That
depends. However, a lot of those people will have a greater proportion
of
lower body muscle than your typical non-athletic person. Those who
lifted
weight due ot playing sports or something, could have significantly more
muslce than your average joe. if they continue to lift while losing,
they
can hold on to a lot (not all) of that muscle.

I do actually have alot of muscle. Many people do not think of me as
conventionally
fat because I am a big football player type.

Regardless of what I, or anyone else, might say, you will likely find your
own exercise/diet regimen that works best for you. Shocking, isn't it? 🙂
Take heart in the fact that it actually is possible to build muscle while
dieting. There are many variations of an LC diet available, and with slight
modifications you should be able to maintain a large amount of your lean
muscle. Granted, the typical aerobic/low-calorie diet would definately not
spare any muscle, but a combination of anaerobic weight training,
maintaining glycogen stores prior to workouts, and watching your caloric
intake, and you should be on the road to success. More than one person on
the list has been able to maintain/build muscle on some variation of an LC
diet. Please experiment and research your own best path and keep us
informed!
Good luck!
Mark

260/235/200 since: 18/01/2005

Roger,

I felt that your comments were sounding desperate. I welcome an intelligent
argument that points out a flaw in my view, but not a 10 year old jumping
up and down shouting: it's not, it's not, it's not

I saw your comments as an ad hominem attack. That makes the issue of your
credentials valid.

In recent times they have discovered a large collection of hormone-like
messengers that fat cells send into the body. They may be responsible for
increased risks such as CVD, diabetes, cancer, etc. In addition, I
hypothesize that they act to alter psychology, and on our current topic, I
SUSPECT THAT THEY ACT ANABOLIC. I'm suggesting that the 400 or 500 pound
person is able to walk, move, & function not because of the exercise during
the weight gain period, but rather as a natural body enhancement triggered
by hormones released by the fat. It would be logical for the body to have
such a design. If my hypothesis is right, the loss of 300 pounds of fat
will remove the hypothetical hormones, and the muscles will atrophy back to
a normal size, as a natural process.

I started my weight training at the YMCA to try to retain muscle. At 187.4,
I'm still too fat to really see my musculature, but my impression is that it
is normal. I have read that the very very obese have a massive hidden
musculature. At the YMCA my strength increased for a while, then it
reversed. My strength is higher than it was when I started at the YMCA, but
well below my peak. I still go there once a week.

Cubit
311/187.4/165
Whoosh continues: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart59.gif

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"Concordia (Suze)" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:

>Roger,
>
>Why are you never in the Robochallenge?

Non sequitur.

Good question though.

Nonsense. I don't need robochallenge to lose weight. Do you? Cubit was
talking out of his ass and finally needed something to respond back with.

Cubit said:

Roger,

I felt that your comments were sounding desperate. I welcome an

intelligent

Quoted message said:

argument that points out a flaw in my view, but not a 10 year old

jumping

Quoted message said:

up and down shouting: it's not, it's not, it's not

I saw your comments as an ad hominem attack. That makes the issue of

your

Quoted message said:

credentials valid.

In recent times they have discovered a large collection of

hormone-like

Quoted message said:

messengers that fat cells send into the body. They may be

responsible for

Quoted message said:

increased risks such as CVD, diabetes, cancer, etc. In addition, I
hypothesize that they act to alter psychology, and on our current

topic, I

Quoted message said:

SUSPECT THAT THEY ACT ANABOLIC. I'm suggesting that the 400 or 500

pound

Quoted message said:

person is able to walk, move, & function not because of the exercise

during

Quoted message said:

the weight gain period, but rather as a natural body enhancement

triggered

Quoted message said:

by hormones released by the fat. It would be logical for the body to

have

Quoted message said:

such a design. If my hypothesis is right, the loss of 300 pounds of

fat

Quoted message said:

will remove the hypothetical hormones, and the muscles will atrophy

back to

Quoted message said:

a normal size, as a natural process.

Preposterous. Performance athletes would be breaking down
Fat-Folks-In-Denial's doors to let their blood for their own injection.
Steroids be damned! Gimme that Krispy Kreme Kritter's hormones.
That's the ticket. It couldn't possibly be the fact that it takes more
muscle mass to move, lift or otherwise cajole the 500 pounds versus 150
pounds into vertical movement. Consequently, anybody with a 5% bodyfat
would be a withering pool of Jello brand gelatin because the magic
fat-faeries forgot to deliver those "natural body enhancement"
hormones.

Quoted message said:

I started my weight training at the YMCA to try to retain muscle. At

187.4,

Quoted message said:

I'm still too fat to really see my musculature, but my impression is

that it

Quoted message said:

is normal. I have read that the very very obese have a massive

hidden

Quoted message said:

musculature. At the YMCA my strength increased for a while, then it
reversed. My strength is higher than it was when I started at the

YMCA, but

Quoted message said:

well below my peak. I still go there once a week.

Cubit
311/187.4/165
Whoosh continues: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart59.gif

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

JC Der Koenig said:

"Concordia (Suze)" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...
> Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:
>
>>Roger,
>>
>>Why are you never in the Robochallenge?
>
> Non sequitur.
>

Good question though.

Nonsense. I don't need robochallenge to lose weight. Do you?

Cubit was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

talking out of his ass and finally needed something to respond back

with.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cubit wrote:
:: Roger,
::
:: I felt that your comments were sounding desperate.

Desperate? 🙂

I welcome an
:: intelligent argument that points out a flaw in my view, but not a
:: 10 year old jumping up and down shouting: it's not, it's not, it's
:: not

It's not.

::
:: I saw your comments as an ad hominem attack. That makes the issue
:: of your credentials valid.

Hmm....right now I weigh about 226 lbs. I started at 367 (just short of
your 400lbs). So that's a total of 141 lbs lost since i started. I'm not
sure what that has to do with Robochallenge, however. But I started lifting
1 year after I started LCing and I started bike riding 2 years after I
started LCing. I've had most of my weight off for nearly 3 years now.

It's hard to say for sure, but I estimate that I have gained muscle mass
overall since I started this. Some at the very beginning after I started
lifting and some over the last 6 months of 2004 when I quit actively trying
to lose weight. I'm sorry if my personal goals don't align with those of
others here, but i'm not into being thin. I'm about being strong and
robust. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll ever let myself weigh less than
maybe 210, if that low. We'll see. I no longer see the need to use a
challenge for a journey that I'll continue on for the rest of my life -
whether this group or RC exists or not. However, I have no problems with
others doing so, if it helps them. I did do the monthly challenges when
Carol Ann was doing them, but once she had her baby I decided it was time to
lose the crutch. Right now, though, it still serves me needs to hang out in
this group (another crutch, really).

::
:: In recent times they have discovered a large collection of
:: hormone-like messengers that fat cells send into the body. They may
:: be responsible for increased risks such as CVD, diabetes, cancer,
:: etc. In addition, I hypothesize that they act to alter psychology,
:: and on our current topic, I SUSPECT THAT THEY ACT ANABOLIC. I'm
:: suggesting that the 400 or 500 pound person is able to walk, move, &
:: function not because of the exercise during the weight gain period,
:: but rather as a natural body enhancement triggered by hormones
:: released by the fat. It would be logical for the body to have such
:: a design. If my hypothesis is right, the loss of 300 pounds of fat
:: will remove the hypothetical hormones, and the muscles will atrophy
:: back to a normal size, as a natural process.

And you don't even factor in what happens when you add resistance training
(even moving) in an anaoboic state? It was your blanket, unsupported
statements prompted me to attack you. I could have accepted your THEORY,
however, even though I might think it junk.

::
:: I started my weight training at the YMCA to try to retain muscle.
:: At 187.4, I'm still too fat to really see my musculature, but my
:: impression is that it is normal.

Then, as I suspected, you didn't have much to begin with. I, on the other
hand, at my current weight, you can see muscles in my legs, arms, chest and
back. When I was a kid I used to do lots of squats and stuff while
following a charles atlas program I got from a comic book. So, by high
school, I had massively muscled legs that others noticed while in the locker
room. Yeah, I was overweight then too, but those muscle were the result of
hte squatting program that Altas was pushing and not due to just being fat,
as other fat kids didn't have them.

:: I have read that the very very
:: obese have a massive hidden musculature.

Where did you read this? This is another of those blanket statements. What
does "massive" mean and what does "very, very obese" mean? Football players
may well have lots of muscle, but others may not espeically if they don't
move well. Greatly overweight non-athletic people will typically be more
muscled in their lower body (compared to average) and maybe even less so in
their upper body (as a result of basically being inactive). If you grow
overweight while growing up, and you move around too, then you will gain
some muscle as you're always moving a significant and increasing, over time,
load. That can occur in the absense of a formal exercise program and is
very likely to happen if you become overweight while young.

:: At the YMCA my strength
:: increased for a while, then it reversed.

Likely because you're keeping calories and carbs so low and maintaining a
quick rate of weight loss. I have concerns for you once you reach goal,
however.

:: My strength is higher than
:: it was when I started at the YMCA, but well below my peak. I still
:: go there once a week.

Why not more? 2X to 3X per week would likely be better, depending on how
you train.

Honestly, you base too much on your own personal experience and notions.
You've never liked exercise, hence you haven't done much. Your body never
had much muscle and now you're losing weight really quickly. So, you may
very well be losing LBM as you lose weight. Hopefully, your weight training
will decrease the amount you lose.

::
:: Cubit
:: 311/187.4/165
:: Whoosh continues: http://techmart.com/~cubit/Chart59.gif
::
::
::
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: JC Der Koenig <[email hidden]> wrote:
:::: "Concordia (Suze)" <suze_anderson@spamcop/dot/obvious> wrote in
:::: message news:[email hidden]...
::::: Quoting "Cubit" <[email hidden]>:
:::::
:::::: Roger,
::::::
:::::: Why are you never in the Robochallenge?
:::::
::::: Non sequitur.
:::::
::::
:::: Good question though.
:::
::: Nonsense. I don't need robochallenge to lose weight. Do you?
::: Cubit was talking out of his ass and finally needed something to
::: respond back with.