Power for sprinters

Lee Povey said:

Hi guys,
i'm a spinter in the U.K. interested in a power meter of some sort. It will need to be track compatible what options do you recomend?
Has anyone here converted a power tap for fixed use?
Also what benifit do you think knowing my power output will be to sprint training?
Looking forward to hearing from you

Lee

My Opinion.....best power meter is the squat rack at the local Gym. Power for trackies is differant than power for roadies. Another indicater of power I use is a standing Jump.

SRM is the best choice, but expensive. I coach several national and world class sprinters & other track riders. I focus on track riders, and have been racing and coaching since I was 8 - quite a while ago. We've used the powertap on a few track bikes. It's OK, but prone to 'data blackout'. It is less money than the SRM, but inferior because of the data blackouts that can last as long as 5 minutes. This even happens with the "new" models we've seen.

Power based training is very helpful for sprinters. By using, and analyzing the data during various training you can determine the strength of your jump and how to improve it, your best positioning for optimal power, precisely determine best cadence/gearing for max speed & power, and much more. It is a useful tool to provide a set of metrics. But it must be used properly to get maximum benefit.

The squat rack is a good tool, for building power, but it is not sufficient by itself. Proper cycling training on the bike, weight training and things such as plyometrics, flexibility training and others are best used in concert. We have several drills we used to establish, improve and monitor a sprinters progress. Many involve a power meter, but not all.

Fixey said:

My Opinion.....best power meter is the squat rack at the local Gym. Power for trackies is differant than power for roadies. Another indicater of power I use is a standing Jump.

Fixey, I can see you have a reasonable set of glutes by your avatar 🙂

What is your maximum 1 rep squat as a multiple of your body weight?

What is your standing jump height?

Just curious so I can develop a track sprinter image of you as distinct from your avatar.

VeloFlash said:

Fixey, I can see you have a reasonable set of glutes by your avatar 🙂

What is your maximum 1 rep squat as a multiple of your body weight?

What is your standing jump height?

Just curious so I can develop a track sprinter image of you as distinct from your avatar.

veritcal jump and 1RPM max is not the best way to determine sprint ability. Read my thread here (I am chainsnapper) http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=327&sid=1024a505c0f682a6c2bcf398f49b1e9c

I still have a ways to go to be a good track sprinter, but I am good on the road.
But maybe I am the exception?

I think a powermeter is a great tool for sprint training. especially if you can't time yourself on the track all the time.

Lee Povey said:

Hi guys,
i'm a spinter in the U.K. interested in a power meter of some sort. It will need to be track compatible what options do you recomend?
Has anyone here converted a power tap for fixed use?
Also what benifit do you think knowing my power output will be to sprint training?
Looking forward to hearing from you

Lee

here is a link on how to convert a powertap for track use. (2nd story down)
http://www.fixedgearfever.com/index.php

velomanct said:

veritcal jump and 1RPM max is not the best way to determine sprint ability. Read my thread here (I am chainsnapper) http://www.fixedgearfever.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=327&sid=1024a505c0f682a6c2bcf398f49b1e9c

I still have a ways to go to be a good track sprinter, but I am good on the road.
But maybe I am the exception?

I think a powermeter is a great tool for sprint training. especially if you can't time yourself on the track all the time.

Vertical jump test has been the mainstay for years and years in determining comparative potential for leg based sprinting and real outcomes. Studies have been made on the elite sprint athletes and top sprint athlete = excellent vertical jump test. Tests have proven there are no exceptions.

I note in your reference posting you claim you are a lean but mean sprinter but you can only vertically jump 17 inches (43cm). That result is termed as average. You have drawn the conclusion from n=1 that the test is therefore an invalid predictor. Top athlete sprinters, and this would apply to the cycling track, have vertical jumps in excess of 65cm (26"😉. The top 10% of athletic track sprinters have vertical jumps from 86cm to 91cm (34" - 36"😉.

Being now in my 3rd real season of track sprinting, I've sorted out what seems to work and what doesn't at least for me. I have really been more of a kilo guy, but can run an outdoor, sea-level, concrete, 333m track 200m tt in 11.1.

Remember always that cycling is power, not strength. The most impressive gains I've made in power on the bike included exactly zero gym work. It consisted of very intense sprint work and starts on the track bike. I dropped a full second off my already ok 1/2 lap start in 6 weeks. That says to things: 1) I had a lot of genetic potential left, but 2) That on-the-bike training is awesome for being on-the-bike fast 😉

There is certainly merit to doing gym work, but it is not that it makes you faster as a sprinter. By itself it might make you slower. What it does do is makes more muscle - and fast twitch at that. After the gym phase, when you do get on the bike there's more to work with. Mostly you'll be training those new fibers how to fire in new patterns.

One more note on gym work - it is nearly impossible to do long hours on the bike concurrently with strength training with the goal of hypertrophy (muscle gain). There are only so many hours in a week for your body to recover. The two ideas are nearly in direct opposition. Once the muscle is there, maintaining it is easy with minimal gym work, but the building phase necessitates backing off quite a lot on bike time. A bit of a trade off, but consider it an investment for the future.

Train on.

Might be a newbie question, but how is this standing jump height actually metered? Placing an 90cm podium in front of you and jumping to top of it?

clogz said:

Might be a newbie question, but how is this standing jump height actually metered? Placing an 90cm podium in front of you and jumping to top of it?

vertical jump test

OK seems to be easy test. I got results between 60cm and 65cm. I'm 180cm and somewhat like 73kg.

Doing some training for kilo atm.

VeloFlash said:

Fixey, I can see you have a reasonable set of glutes by your avatar 🙂

What is your maximum 1 rep squat as a multiple of your body weight?

What is your standing jump height?

Just curious so I can develop a track sprinter image of you as distinct from your avatar.

🙂 Avater is pretty close at the moment...When Iwas sprinting my best 1 off squat was 350kg but I dont deep squat (bearing in mind also it was part of a super set. Max Vert jump was close to 90cm. At 5 foot 10 (178cm) and 90kg stripped to the bone.

This in response to velomanct: vertical jump power may be a requirement for top track sprinters, but there are other factors that may be just as important such as cycling technique and anaerobic power. I would say that the ability to sustain a fairly high power for over 20-30 seconds is more important than peak pwr. If pk power were the significant factor, then elite 75-94 kg class weightlifters would be the best track sprinters. Track sprinters I see as a combination of somewhat high peak power combined with great anaerobic power and power/weight ratio. I believe power developed during a single vertical leap of over 35 inches for a 80 kg person is in excess of 3500 watts but such pk power is never developed during a track sprint. A top 100 kg+ male weightlifter reaches about 5000 watts pk power (2nd phase [censored], clean).

Curiously, I've found over the past year that my training for a 20-40 km TT or 50-80 km mass start event has increased my sprinting power+ just doing hill sprints. i.e, I've been training primarily for aerobic fitness, I do strength maintenance of 80 kg x 12 for backsquats (rock bottom and fast) once per two weeks and incline dumbbell press but this is far less then what I did before. Also oddly, after adding in hill sprints over the past 3 weeks the 80 kg squats felt considerably lighter, i.e, the sprints were enough stimulus to increase strength in back squatting.

I'm not a terribly coordinated fellow (still can't ride no hands, not even for a few seconds) so I figure my sprint efficiency has improved with the kilometers and hill sprints, as my max 1 RM squat strength has decreased from 1.5 years ago, although not by much, and my VJ is pretty much as high as it ever was. I've stopped doing heavy deadlifts completely as they are just too much of a strain.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

This in response to velomanct: vertical jump power may be a requirement for top track sprinters, but there are other factors that may be just as important such as cycling technique and anaerobic power. I would say that the ability to sustain a fairly high power for over 20-30 seconds is more important than peak pwr. If pk power were the significant factor, then elite 75-94 kg class weightlifters would be the best track sprinters. Track sprinters I see as a combination of somewhat high peak power combined with great anaerobic power and power/weight ratio. I believe power developed during a single vertical leap of over 35 inches for a 80 kg person is in excess of 3500 watts but such pk power is never developed during a track sprint. A top 100 kg+ male weightlifter reaches about 5000 watts pk power (2nd phase [censored], clean).

Curiously, I've found over the past year that my training for a 20-40 km TT or 50-80 km mass start event has increased my sprinting power+ just doing hill sprints. i.e, I've been training primarily for aerobic fitness, I do strength maintenance of 80 kg x 12 for backsquats (rock bottom and fast) once per two weeks and incline dumbbell press but this is far less then what I did before. Also oddly, after adding in hill sprints over the past 3 weeks the 80 kg squats felt considerably lighter, i.e, the sprints were enough stimulus to increase strength in back squatting.

I'm not a terribly coordinated fellow (still can't ride no hands, not even for a few seconds) so I figure my sprint efficiency has improved with the kilometers and hill sprints, as my max 1 RM squat strength has decreased from 1.5 years ago, although not by much, and my VJ is pretty much as high as it ever was. I've stopped doing heavy deadlifts completely as they are just too much of a strain.

-Bikeguy

You are definitely right, 20-30sec power is more important for sprinting on the bike.

I am definitely more of an endurance athlete than a sprinter, plus my vertical is so low.

I find that low volume(but explosive) wieght training which does not leave your legs very tired is the best for sprint training. And I learned one very important lesson this winter - weights alone will not maintain sprinting ability on the bike, you have to keep sprinting year round if you want to make the best gains. It has taken me a few weeks of bike work to get my sprinting back to where it was last fall.
Training has been going really well with the new coach.
I am taking a rest week right now, I can't wait until the weekend, I am going to feel like Superman on the bike!

Lee Povey said:

Hi guys,
i'm a spinter in the U.K. interested in a power meter of some sort. It will need to be track compatible what options do you recomend?
Has anyone here converted a power tap for fixed use?
Also what benifit do you think knowing my power output will be to sprint training?
Looking forward to hearing from you

Lee

If you can get timed 200/500/pursuit regularly at your track, you don't need a powermeter. In either case it's a good way to measure progress and current status.

A few people on the topica wattage list have converted PowerTaps to fixies. I thought about it and took the plunge and got an SRM.

If you already have used a PowerTap I assume you already know the benefits of training by using power and analyzing races with power files.

VeloFlash said:

Vertical jump test has been the mainstay for years and years in determining comparative potential for leg based sprinting and real outcomes. Studies have been made on the elite sprint athletes and top sprint athlete = excellent vertical jump test. Tests have proven there are no exceptions..

Does this mean most NBA guards and some of the forwards would be excellent sprinters? Could Michael Jordan or Tracy McGrady have been the world's fastest man?

Tongue only slightly in cheek.

Woofer said:

If you can get timed 200/500/pursuit regularly at your track, you don't need a powermeter. In either case it's a good way to measure progress and current status.

A few people on the topica wattage list have converted PowerTaps to fixies. I thought about it and took the plunge and got an SRM.

If you already have used a PowerTap I assume you already know the benefits of training by using power and analyzing races with power files.

I live quite away from a decent indoor track so hard to do many timed efforts.
I am quite tempted by srm cranks, would love to know what you think you have gained by using them?
Also anything suprising you noticed and how have you changed your training since using them?
Cheers Lee

Lee Povey said:

I live quite away from a decent indoor track so hard to do many timed efforts.
I am quite tempted by srm cranks, would love to know what you think you have gained by using them?
Also anything suprising you noticed and how have you changed your training since using them?
Cheers Lee

I use both PowerTap on the road/cyclocross/mtb and SRM on the track. I have definitely changed my focus in training, and do not even use heart rate for much of anything anymore. Instead of guessing about what one is good at, one can directly measure it, and monitor progress. One thing one can do is use it for racing ( I don't bother looking at it much then) and analyze the race afterwards to see where one can possibly improve or repeat performances - for instance, dropped after x efforts of N power or dropped after y minutes of N power. Both SRM and PowerTap have their pluses and minuses and you will find plenty of people happy and unhappy with both. The Power FAQ covers most of this comparison pretty well.

Lee Povey said:

I live quite away from a decent indoor track so hard to do many timed efforts.
I am quite tempted by srm cranks, would love to know what you think you have gained by using them?
Also anything suprising you noticed and how have you changed your training since using them?
Cheers Lee

my powertap gives me a lot of motivation, because I can exactly see improvement. often you won't see an increase in speed because of changing conditions, but watts are watts no matter what. you can track progress very well. i think the SRM is overpriced. that's why I bought the powertap pro about 15months ago.

Woofer said:

If you can get timed 200/500/pursuit regularly at your track, you don't need a powermeter. In either case it's a good way to measure progress and current status.

A few people on the topica wattage list have converted PowerTaps to fixies. I thought about it and took the plunge and got an SRM.

If you already have used a PowerTap I assume you already know the benefits of training by using power and analyzing races with power files.

If you run at an outdoor track wind changes will affect your times for a given power, as will temperature/air pressure changes and position changes. I can't afford a powe meter so I don't have one, but I'd say they're be useful even if you are regularly timed (to distinguish actual improvement from environmental changes and to establish the merits of position modifications).