A Classic

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with us sometimes.

There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at my
work than usual, I believe). Given this as a true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the internet,
are you really surprised by the moronic behaviour of some cyclists ?

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with us sometimes.

I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout at
Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee

What's the relevance of the 'Asian' and 'female'?

"Mark Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike

rider

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dressed in black in the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with

us

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sometimes.

I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee

Why do you paint some rider as a moron, just because s/he refuses to buy into the gelati-coloured
lycra/yellow parka image [censored]? When you start believing that the only way to ride safely is when you
are glowing like a Xmas tree, then you are only a small step away from giving motorists the
justification to say that we shouldn't even be on the road because we're a danger to ourselves.

If motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't matter what the cyclist is wearing. But
go ahead and blame the victim... I guess it works in rape trials.

GW

Quoted message said:

From: "RMan" <[email hidden]> Organization: Monash Uni Newsgroups: aus.bicycle Date: Wed, 11
Jun 2003 11:07:01 +1000 Subject: Re: A Classic

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with us sometimes.

There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at
my work than usual, I believe). Given this as a true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the
internet, are you really surprised by the moronic behaviour of some cyclists ?

The poster didn't say that the rider should be wearing "gelati-coloured lycra/yellow parka image
[censored]". The implication was merely that it should be something with high visibility instead of black.
As for your deeply flawed logic re "if motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't
matter what the cyclist is wearing" well, duh, of course!! The point is that some motorists don't
drive this way, so cyclists who have little protection must take steps to ensure they're seen.

"ghostwombat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do you paint some rider as a moron, just because s/he refuses to buy into the gelati-coloured
lycra/yellow parka image [censored]? When you start believing that the only way to ride safely is when
you are glowing like a Xmas tree, then you are only a small step away from giving motorists the
justification to say that we shouldn't even be on the road because we're a danger to ourselves.

If motorists drove according to the conditions, it shouldn't matter what

the

Quoted message said:

cyclist is wearing. But go ahead and blame the victim... I guess it works

in

Quoted message said:

rape trials.

GW

Quoted message said:

From: "RMan" <[email hidden]> Organization: Monash Uni Newsgroups: aus.bicycle Date: Wed,
11 Jun 2003 11:07:01 +1000 Subject: Re: A Classic

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike

rider

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

dressed in black in the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with

us

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sometimes.

There are morons who ride bikes, and morons who drive cars. There are morons everywhere (more at
my work than usual, I believe). Given this

as a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

true, and it must be, 'cos I said it on the internet, are you really surprised by the moronic
behaviour of some cyclists ?

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with us sometimes.

I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee

Great, now the implication is that "Asian" females have no idea, as opposed to this one person
having no idea. There doesn't seem to be any hope at all....

WOuld you have said "I saw a white female..." if it had been the case?

So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
females in Oz are white.

Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you prefer
an apology attached because she wasn't white.

I agree there is no hope for fools who attach a racist tag at any opportunity. Try to get rid of the
chip Jose.

John L.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3ee66ddd@info-int...

Quoted message said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Some guys have got no idea, it's no wonder motorists get the [censored] with us sometimes.

I saw an Asian female at 6:10 this morning cycling anticlockwise round the Denmac Ford roundabout
at Indooroopilly in the dark, wearing black with no lights. Mark Lee

Great, now the implication is that "Asian" females have no idea, as opposed to this one person
having no idea. There doesn't seem to be any hope at all....

WOuld you have said "I saw a white female..." if it had been the case?

In aus.bicycle on Wed said:

So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
females in Oz are white.

Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you prefer
an apology attached because she wasn't white.

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he thought
it was relevant.

Why was it relevant?

What does someone's race have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one race or
another behaves a certain way. Which is, suprise surprise... racism. No matter the race in question.
Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.

Zebee

Mark Lee wrote:

...snip......

Quoted message said:

I saw an Asian female

The thing that is really cracking me up is all the complaints about one of your decsriptors; asian.

Absolutely nothing about the other; female.

Just an observation {:-)

--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www: woa.com.auwoa.com.auOpen ↗ Wombat Outdoor
Adventures <Bicycles, Computers, GIS, Printing,
Publishing>

"People without trees are like fish without clean water"

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >

Quoted message said:

Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.

But incorrect! Mark Lee
P.S. I am white.

.... but some of my best friends................

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
thought it was relevant.

Why was it relevant?

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to exorbitant
garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where there isn't a
culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a big city where
it never gets truly dark? I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew
up in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.
Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
-incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year, according
to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than some.
Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership
rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Mark Lee

Zebee Johnstone <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In aus.bicycle on Wed said:

So now we ban any descriptive terms completely. Try to get used to the fact that the majority of
females in Oz are white.

Mark was describing what he saw, he made no reference to Asian females generally, would you
prefer an apology attached because she wasn't white.

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
thought it was relevant.

Why was it relevant?

What does someone's race have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one race or
another behaves a certain way. Which is, suprise surprise... racism. No matter the race in
question. Would have been just as racist to say 'white'.

Zebee

The female tag was also irrelevant, as was the cyclist tag. What does someone's status as a road
user have to do with their road behaviour, unless you feel that one kind of road user or another
behaves a certain way. Which is, surprise surprise... err where was I?

The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no claims
whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists (or
roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be offended by
the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a roundabout at
night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...

Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
moron? Depends who you ask)

Terry Collins said:

Mark Lee wrote:

...snip......

Quoted message said:

I saw an Asian female

The thing that is really cracking me up is all the complaints about one of your decsriptors; asian.

Absolutely nothing about the other; female.

Just an observation {:-)

We all *know* that females can't drive 🙂

Steve

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
thought it was relevant.

Why was it relevant?

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to
exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where
there isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a
big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
not thinking hard enough.

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew up in a tiny village in a
country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
-incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year,
according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car
ownership rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it. Where
is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes? How do you know the
woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can come from many countries
in the region.

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your own
unintentional prejudices.

SNIP

Quoted message said:

The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no
claims whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists (or
roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be offended
by the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a roundabout
at night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...

Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
moron? Depends who you ask)

And what's wrong with being a moron? That statement sounds intellectualist <TIC>...

Why is there so much fuss about statements that identify race/gender/gelati-coloured lycra, etc? I
can't see what's offensive about someone describing me (for example) as a white male, coz I am. On
the other hand, if someone ascribes my behaviour to my being a white male, I've got a problem.

Terms can be used to identfy quite freely. "An Asian female", when used without ascribing
characteristics to "Asian female" is no more than an identifying description. It's particularly
relevent if someone else sees a rider doing the same thing in the same place; the identifying
descriptor helps to show that it's possibly the same rider.

I think we tend to read too much INTO terms rather than reading OUT OF what's written. To read
chracterising racism where none is evident smacks of paranoia and insecurity. Try applying the
principle of charity when reading other's texts...

Muff said,

Frank (probably certifiably moronic... and proud of it!)

Frank Palermo:

Quoted message said:

SNIP

Quoted message said:

The meaning of a sentence is clearly in the eye of the beholder. The original poster made no
claims whatsoever regarding the general groups: Asians (however defined), females or cyclists
(or roundabouts ha ha). Perhaps the original poster could have foreseen that people could be
offended by the descriptors and merely said "a moron" cyclist was riding the wrong way around a
roundabout at night wearing dark clothes. Stupidity spans all races and genders...

Ritch (about to ride home in the dark, with lights and bright clothes but in traffic - maybe a
moron? Depends who you ask)

And what's wrong with being a moron? That statement sounds intellectualist <TIC>...

Why is there so much fuss about statements that identify race/gender/gelati-coloured lycra, etc?

"Race" isn't in the same category as "lycra etc". In fact, the term "race" itself is meaningless,
and its use has been purely for categorising people into pigeonholes based on nothing more than
perceived looks by past anthropologists. Read up on the etymology of "race" and you'll find quite
interesting facts.

Quoted message said:

I can't see what's offensive about someone describing me (for example) as a white male, coz I am.
On the other hand, if someone ascribes my behaviour to my being a white male, I've got a problem.

You've just answered your own question.

Quoted message said:

Terms can be used to identfy quite freely. "An Asian female", when used without ascribing
characteristics to "Asian female" is no more than an identifying description. It's particularly
relevent if someone else sees a rider doing the same thing in the same place; the identifying
descriptor helps to show that it's possibly the same rider.

Which isn't the case with the previous poster. Read the post and confine your observations to that.

Quoted message said:

I think we tend to read too much INTO terms rather than reading OUT OF what's written. To read
chracterising racism where none is evident smacks of paranoia and insecurity. Try applying the
principle of charity when reading other's texts...

Being unable to discern the underlying intent and significance of words used in descriptions,
especially when issues of perceived superiority and baseless categorisation are present, smacks of
happy ignorance of a much bigger world beyond your own little one.

Quoted message said:

Muff said,

Quoted message said:

Frank (probably certifiably moronic... and proud of it!)

You stated it.

Jose & Zebee,

Your idea of a balanced argument comes from having a chip on both shoulders.

If you want to analyse any statement for long enough, you can make any self serving judgement you
wish. The average person in Australia doesn't sit & think for an hour before making a statement, &
doesn't expect to have it dissected by a nitpicking anal retentive.

The main problem appears to be between your own hypersensitive ears.

I also find your remark, "your'e not thinking hard enough", to be generally offensive & laying claim
to some superior thought process.

Oh no I think I've jjust caught your disease.

John L.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
thought it was relevant.

Why was it relevant?

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the right-hand
side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport due to
exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat? Where
there isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age? Maybe a
big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
not thinking hard enough.

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew up in a tiny village in
a country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
-incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year,
according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car
ownership rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it. Where
is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes? How do you know the
woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can come from many
countries in the region.

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your
own unintentional prejudices.

The female tag was also irrelevant, as was the cyclist tag. What does
: someone's status as a road user have to do with their road behaviour,

And why was the roundabout bought into it. It should have been a vehicle moving in an illegal
direction on the road. Or can we actually remove the word vehicle as I suddenly assumed that all
vehicles would do the wrong thing. How ridiculous. This is what happened in the US. An over
dominance of political correctness. I put it to people that make such remarks that they are the
racist ones to actually notice the statement. Until I read all the replies I did not even notice the
comment about Asian female.

When I was 8 years old there was a boy in my class that decided to call me a name. He was trying to
hurt me by calling me that name. Thing is I did not take offence at it. Then my friends started to
address me by that name. This name followed me through 3 schools and now I am 33 my friends still
call me it. I gave that 8 year old boy no power over me by just not jacking up. On the other hand
there was another boy at school who constantly resisted his nickname and therefore was attacked all
the time with it all through school. The victims and bleeding hearts give derogatory and racist
terms the power they do not deserve. If everyone just laughed it off then they would not have any
power and people would not use them anymore or only in good nature. They are just groupings of
letters after all.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Mark Lee:
:
: >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:
: All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
: race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
: not thinking hard enough.

Its people like you who give power to racism. I did not even notice the comment until you noticed
it. Who is more racist... the one who does not even consider a comment like that or one that notices
it and stews over it. I also did not automatically assume that cyclist or roundabouts are always at
fault although they were also mentioned in this scenario. Its these sort of comments that heighten
racism in this country not the other way around. I work in a place where most of my friends are
Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Philippino, Indians, Nepalese, Pakistani etc etc... Oh dear it looks like
I am racist at everyone since I can make that distinction that my friends are from different
countries. Countries where I am well travelled.

Peter