A Classic

Tony said:

Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike rider dressed in black in
the fog!!

Hang on...

Isn't fog all _white_ though ?!

😉

-kt

Congratulations John, for recognising the BS put out by the PC.

Some of my best mates are also Filipino, Fijian Indian, American Indian, Yank, Chinese, etc. We
recognise the difference in skin colour & racial characteristics between us (we aren't blind), and
all joke about it, I guess that makes us all racist in the eyes of the PC zealots. Strangely we all
think the diversity is what makes the world such a wonderful place.

I think the real difference is that we retain our sense of humour, & treat each other as equals,
while acknowledging the difference between us.

John L.

John Doe said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Mark Lee:
:
: >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:
: All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
: race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
: not thinking hard enough.

Its people like you who give power to racism. I did not even notice the comment until you noticed
it. Who is more racist... the one who does not even consider a comment like that or one that
notices it and stews over it. I also did not automatically assume that cyclist or roundabouts are
always at fault although they were also mentioned in this scenario. Its these sort of comments that
heighten racism in this country not the other way around. I work in a place where most of my
friends are Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Philippino, Indians, Nepalese, Pakistani etc etc... Oh dear
it looks like I am racist at everyone since I can make that distinction that my friends are from
different countries. Countries where I am well travelled.

Peter

John L <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations John, for recognising the BS put out by the PC.

Some of my best mates are also Filipino, Fijian Indian, American Indian, Yank, Chinese, etc. We
recognise the difference in skin colour & racial characteristics between us (we aren't blind), and
all joke about it, I guess that makes us all racist in the eyes of the PC zealots. Strangely we
all think the diversity is what makes the world such a wonderful place.

I think the real difference is that we retain our sense of humour, & treat each other as equals,
while acknowledging the difference between us.

You retain your sense of humor because it _is_ between friends. The same thing becomes vitrolic
when it isn't.

Yes it is still racism, no matter how you dress it up or dispair at others for pointing it out.

Trevor S

OK I'm a racist in YOUR eyes, because I can recognise the differernce in the colour of a persons
skin & don't feel anyone need apologise for the colour of their skin.

Your idea of me being a racist is based on your faulty perception of my acceptance of other races.

You are a judgmental racist of the worst kind, I pity you & your dumb PC rrhetoric.. You also have
the unmitigated gall to assume you know what my conversations with my friends are about. We usually
laugh about our OWN racial pecululiarities, you dunderhead.

John L.

Trevor S said:

John L <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations John, for recognising the BS put out by the PC.

Some of my best mates are also Filipino, Fijian Indian, American Indian, Yank, Chinese, etc. We
recognise the difference in skin colour & racial characteristics between us (we aren't blind),
and all joke about it, I guess that makes us all racist in the eyes of the PC zealots. Strangely
we all think the diversity is what makes the world such a wonderful place.

I think the real difference is that we retain our sense of humour, & treat each other as equals,
while acknowledging the difference between us.

You retain your sense of humor because it _is_ between friends. The same thing becomes vitrolic
when it isn't.

Yes it is still racism, no matter how you dress it up or dispair at others for pointing it out.

Trevor S

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only

*possible*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason is because he thought it was relevant.

I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why was it relevant?

Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to describe what I saw, then how is
anyone to judge anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where

everyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own
transport due to exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi
or boat? Where

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
not thinking hard enough.

Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between different
ethnicities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she

may be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Are we allowed to wonder?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised
transport culture.

Ditto.

Can you extrapolate?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40

deaths

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about
17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000

crippled

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for life last year, according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.

Comparative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are higher

here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it. Where
is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?

I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth" riding.

Quoted message said:

How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can
come from many countries in the region.

What????

Quoted message said:

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your
own unintentional prejudices.

The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is that an allowable word) could
easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would that have been evolution in action?

Mark Lee

Mark,

Maybe we should be attending PC classes together. We both obviously have a twisted view of this new
touchy, feely, apologise for having an opinion, world, where everyone is the same colour & has no
opinion on anything :-)

John L.

Mark Lee said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only

*possible*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> reason is because he thought it was relevant.
>

I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why was it relevant?

Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to describe what I saw, then how is
anyone to judge anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where

everyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their
own transport due to exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus,
taxi or boat? Where

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
not thinking hard enough.

Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between different
ethnicities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she

may be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Are we allowed to wonder?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised
transport culture.

Ditto.

Can you extrapolate?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40

deaths

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about
17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000

crippled

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for life last year, according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.

Comparative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are higher

here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it.
Where is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?

I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth" riding.

Quoted message said:

How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can
come from many countries in the region.

What????

Quoted message said:

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your
own unintentional prejudices.

The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is that an allowable word) could
easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would that have been evolution in action?

Mark Lee

What the hell is all this about, I made a comment about some idiot riding in the fog

"John L" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark,

Maybe we should be attending PC classes together. We both obviously have a twisted view of this
new touchy, feely, apologise for having an opinion, world, where everyone is the same colour & has
no opinion on anything :-)

John L.

Mark Lee said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee:

>> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

>> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only

*possible*

Quoted message said:

>> reason is because he thought it was relevant.
>>

I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

>> Why was it relevant?

Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to describe what I saw, then how is
anyone to judge anything.

Quoted message said:

> You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where

everyone

Quoted message said:

> drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their
> own transport due to exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train,
> bus, taxi or boat?

Where

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there

Quoted message said:

> isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an

Quoted message said:

> early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the

ethnicity,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and think up of the reason afterwards? You're not thinking hard

enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between different
ethnicities.

Quoted message said:

> I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who

grew

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up

Quoted message said:

> in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she

may be

Quoted message said:

> out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Are we allowed to wonder?

Quoted message said:

> Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the

1920's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in

Quoted message said:

> his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> entrenched motorised transport culture.

Ditto.

Can you extrapolate?

Quoted message said:

> "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40

deaths

Quoted message said:

> for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher

said

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents and
> 100,000

crippled

Quoted message said:

> for life last year, according to the National Health

nstitute." -from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> online news sources
>
> Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport

safety

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> culture is better than some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.

Comparative

Quoted message said:

> populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are higher

here

Quoted message said:

> but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up
for mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify
it. Where is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?

I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth"

riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can
come from many countries in the region.

What????

Quoted message said:

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why
you thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of
your own unintentional prejudices.

The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is that

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowable word) could easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would that have been evolution in
action?

Mark Lee

Ah! Good to be back to aus.bicycle where every comment that has some vague relevance to cycling ends
in a completely unrelated discussion about politics or religion!! Thanks for making me feel at home
everyone... now back to the bikes...

Cheers,

Ben

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eee6f39@info-int...

Quoted message said:

What the hell is all this about, I made a comment about some idiot riding

in

Quoted message said:

the fog

"John L" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark,

Maybe we should be attending PC classes together. We both obviously have a twisted view of this
new touchy, feely, apologise for having an opinion, world, where everyone is the same colour &
has no opinion on anything :-)

John L.

Mark Lee said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> Mark Lee:
>
> >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>
> >> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only
*possible*
> >> reason is because he thought it was relevant.
> >>

I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.

> >> Why was it relevant?
>

Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to

describe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what I saw, then how is anyone to judge anything.

> > You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where
everyone
> > drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > (relatively) drive their own transport due to exorbitant garaging

etc

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat?

Where

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there
> > isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an
> > early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?
>
> All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
> race-specific statement? You mention the

ethnicity,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> and think up of the reason afterwards? You're not thinking hard

enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between
different ethnicities.

> > I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who

grew

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

up
> > in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day

she

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

may be
> > out on our roads.
>
> Relevance of this?
>

Are we allowed to wonder?

> > Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the

1920's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in
> > his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > entrenched motorised transport culture.
>
> Ditto.

Can you extrapolate?

>
> > "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at

40

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deaths
> > for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher

said

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents
> > and 100,000
crippled
> > for life last year, according to the National Health

nstitute." -from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > online news sources
> >
> > Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport

safety

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > culture is better than some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.
Comparative
> > populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are

higher

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

here
> > but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.
>
> Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> all. You got pulled up for mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated
> statistics to justify it. Where is the

link

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?

I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth"

riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Asia. "Asians" can come from many countries in the region.
>

What????

> You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why
> you thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware
> of your own unintentional prejudices.
>

The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is

that

Quoted message said:

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

allowable word) could easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have been evolution in action?

Mark Lee

All we need now is a complaint post about quoting the whole thread in a followup, as well as top
posting... bait on the hook

Ritch

"Ben Long" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ah! Good to be back to aus.bicycle where every comment that has some vague relevance to cycling
ends in a completely unrelated discussion about politics or religion!! Thanks for making me feel
at home everyone... now back to the bikes...

Cheers,

Ben

"Tony" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:3eee6f39@info-int...

Quoted message said:

What the hell is all this about, I made a comment about some idiot riding

in

Quoted message said:

the fog

"John L" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark,

Maybe we should be attending PC classes together. We both obviously have a twisted view of
this new touchy, feely, apologise for having an opinion, world, where everyone is the same
colour & has no opinion on anything :-)

John L.

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:05:31 GMT, "Mark Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
>"]news:[email hidden]...
>> Mark Lee:
>>
>> >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only

*possible*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> reason is because he thought it was relevant.
>> >>
>
>I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.
>
>> >> Why was it relevant?
>>
>
>Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to

describe

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>what I saw, then how is anyone to judge anything.
>
>> > You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where

everyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few

people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > (relatively) drive their own transport due to exorbitant garaging

etc

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat?

Where there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic

from an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?
>>
>> All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
>> race-specific statement? You mention the

ethnicity,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> and think up of the reason afterwards? You're not thinking hard

enough.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>
>Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between
>different ethnicities.
>
>> > I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who

grew up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day

she may be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > out on our roads.
>>
>> Relevance of this?
>>
>
>Are we allowed to wonder?
>
>> > Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the

1920's in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training

or

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > entrenched motorised transport culture.
>>
>> Ditto.
>
>Can you extrapolate?
>
>>
>> > "Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at

40 deaths

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher

said

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents
>> > and 100,000

crippled

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > for life last year, according to the National Health

nstitute." -from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > online news sources
>> >
>> > Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport

safety

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > culture is better than some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.

Comparative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are

higher here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> > but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.
>>
>> Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism

after

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> all. You got pulled up for mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up
>> unrelated statistics to justify it. Where is the

link

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?
>
>I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth"

riding.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>> How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Asia. "Asians" can come from many countries in the region.
>>
>
>What????
>
>> You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on
>> why you thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be
>> unaware of your own unintentional prejudices.
>>
>
>The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is

that an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>allowable word) could easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>have been evolution in action?
>
>Mark Lee
>

John L :

Quoted message said:

Jose & Zebee,

Your idea of a balanced argument comes from having a chip on both shoulders.

Insults do not improve your argument.

Quoted message said:

If you want to analyse any statement for long enough, you can make any self serving judgement
you wish.

This is not just any statement, it is a specific reference which has been specifically addressed and
analysed. Your simplistic generalisation does not divert from reality.

Quoted message said:

The average person in Australia doesn't sit & think for an hour before making a statement,

It doesn't take an hour to think about a statement. It only requires knowledge. But then, maybe the
average person should sit and think long. At least you should.

Quoted message said:

& doesn't expect to have it dissected by a nitpicking anal retentive.

Ah, you only succeed in increasing your credibility gap.

Quoted message said:

The main problem appears to be between your own hypersensitive ears.

So if it doesn't bother you, you think it shouldn't bother anyone else? How amusing.

Quoted message said:

I also find your remark, "your'e not thinking hard enough", to be generally offensive & laying
claim to some superior thought process.

Of course it is superior to your thought processes, since you display an appaling lack of
understanding of the issue raised, instead concentrating on propagating your own narrow simple view
of the world.

Quoted message said:

Oh no I think I've jjust caught your disease.

You can only improve.

Quoted message said:

John L.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only *possible* reason is because he
> thought it was relevant.
>
> Why was it relevant?

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where everyone drives on the
right-hand side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their own transport
due to exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus, taxi or boat?
Where there isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from an early age?
Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards? You're
not thinking hard enough.

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew up in a tiny village
in a country where cars are very rare. One day she may be out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's in his book "Boy"
-incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised transport culture.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40 deaths for every 100,000
people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about 17,520/year. ...six
million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000 crippled for life last year,
according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750. Comparative populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car
ownership rates are higher here but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it.
Where is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes? How do you
know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can come from
many countries in the region.

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why you
thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of your
own unintentional prejudices.

John Doe:

Quoted message said:

: The female tag was also irrelevant, as was the cyclist tag. What does someone's status as a road
: user have to do with their road behaviour,

And why was the roundabout bought into it. It should have been a vehicle moving in an illegal
direction on the road. Or can we actually remove the word vehicle as I suddenly assumed that all
vehicles would do the wrong thing. How ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is your unamusing attempt to dismiss the issue by resorting to exaggerations. This
is the resort of those with plenty of determination but little justification for issues of
ethnocentrism.

Quoted message said:

This is what happened in the US. An over dominance of political correctness.

"Political correctness" is a term invented by people who had nothing else to justify their inability
to recognise ignorant attitudes. It is usually accompanied by exaggerations in attempts to ridicule
issues of equality and cultural significance.

Quoted message said:

I put it to people that make such remarks that they are the racist ones to actually notice the
statement. Until I read all the replies I did not even notice the comment about Asian female.

How amusing. Do you really believe anyone can take you seriously? You follow a predictable pattern:
counter-accuse to divert attention.

Quoted message said:

When I was 8 years old there was a boy in my class that decided to call me a name. He was trying
to hurt me by calling me that name. Thing is I did not take offence at it. Then my friends started
to address me by that name. This name followed me through 3 schools and now I am 33 my friends
still call me it. I gave that 8 year old boy no power over me by just not jacking up. On the other
hand there was another boy at school who constantly resisted his nickname and therefore was
attacked all the time with it all through school. The victims and bleeding hearts give derogatory
and racist terms the power they do not deserve.

This is diverting from the issue. The posts have not been about offensive words but to the intent of
the use of racial classifications in describing wrongdoers. Without qualification, the implication
is that the anomalous behaviour is connected to someone's ethnicity.

To your issue: naivety cannot get you through this world, despite your luck so far. Words define our
world. The reason offensive words have been coined and used is to convey malice and insult in the
user's attitude and beliefs towards the recipient. Do you seriously think laughing it off is going
to stop people from malicious labels and derogatory intent towards others?

Quoted message said:

If everyone just laughed it off then they would not have any power and people would not use them
anymore or only in good nature. They are just groupings of letters after all.

And so new derogatory words will just be invented, and the cycle starts again. Or do you honestly
think that in the future there will never be offensive words ever, if only everyone laughed them
off? Wow, happy happy joy joy for everyone in your world of fantasy.

John Doe:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Mark Lee:
:
: >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:
: All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
: race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards?
: You're not thinking hard enough.

Its people like you who give power to racism. I did not even notice the comment until you noticed
it. Who is more racist... the one who does not even consider a comment like that or one that
notices it and stews over it.

Please. Even if what you state about being unaware of the comment's intent is true (and I have
serious doubts that it is), other posts defending the notion show clearly that you are in the
minority. Perhaps you need to be more aware of what you read.

Quoted message said:

I also did not automatically assume that cyclist or roundabouts are always at fault although they
were also mentioned in this scenario. Its these sort of comments that heighten racism in this
country not the other way around.

It is your sort of comments that propagate the notion that there is nothing to be improved in the
way some people perceive others without being affected by colour or culture. You exemplify the
people who like to pretend that we are all living in a harmonious society where people's ethnicities
are irrelevant to issues of equality and acceptance. Get your head out of the sand.

Quoted message said:

I work in a place where most of my friends are Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Philippino, Indians,
Nepalese, Pakistani etc etc... Oh dear it looks like I am racist at everyone since I can make that
distinction that my friends are from different countries. Countries where I am well travelled.

Since you're also ignorant of the meaning of "racism", let me illuminate you. Racism is defined in
Merriam-Webster as: "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities
and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race".

Now can you take it from there, and understand that making distinctions in other than superiority
issues is not racism? Exaggerating your arguments do not improve them.

On the other hand, if you described a co-worker as "An Asian man who does not wash his hands after
going to the toilet; what a filthy person", are you able to see the implication of mentioning his
ethnicity, when it is in fact completely irrelevant?

John L :

Quoted message said:

Congratulations John, for recognising the BS put out by the PC.

Some of my best mates are also Filipino, Fijian Indian, American Indian, Yank, Chinese, etc. We
recognise the difference in skin colour & racial characteristics between us (we aren't blind), and
all joke about it, I guess that makes us all racist in the eyes of the PC zealots.

Yes, you do belong to the "some of my best friends are..." crowd.

Your inability to see the contradiction in that statement aside, your connecting this to the issue
of Lee's post indicate you know less than you like to think, or perhaps it's an intentional
diversion from the issue. It's interesting that you refer to your "mates" as ethnic descriptions.
How many of them are actually Australian citizens, deserving to be called Australians? But it's a
digression.

The post in contention described a wrongdoer in ethnic terms, when in fact ethnicity is irrelevant
to the issue. That post was then followed up by non-related statements and statistics intended to
prop up the ethnic label justification. Look up "racism" in the dictionary and you'll learn
something.

Quoted message said:

Strangely we all think the diversity is what makes the world such a wonderful place.

I think the real difference is that we retain our sense of humour, & treat each other as equals,
while acknowledging the difference between us.

Noble notions, although your awareness is lacking.

Quoted message said:

John L.

John Doe said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Mark Lee:
:
: >> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:
: All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
: race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards?
: You're not thinking hard enough.

Its people like you who give power to racism. I did not even notice the comment until you noticed
it. Who is more racist... the one who does not even consider a comment like that or one that
notices it and stews over it. I also did not automatically assume that cyclist or roundabouts are
always at fault although they were also mentioned in this scenario. Its these sort of comments
that heighten racism in this country not the other way around. I work in a place where most of my
friends are Chinese, Thai, Vietnamese, Philippino, Indians, Nepalese, Pakistani etc etc... Oh
dear it looks like I am racist at everyone since I can make that distinction that my friends are
from different countries. Countries where I am well travelled.

Peter

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee:

Quoted message said:

> "Zebee Johnstone" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

> Why did he see the need to mention the race at all? The only

*possible*

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> reason is because he thought it was relevant.
>

I didn't need to mention anything.... no details whatsoever.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Why was it relevant?

Maybe someone can tell me. If it's against your law for me to describe what I saw, then how is
anyone to judge anything.

You've missed the point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You've got me thinking now. Could she come from a country where

everyone

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drives on the right-hand side of the road? Or where very few people (relatively) drive their
own transport due to exorbitant garaging etc costs... perhaps travelling mainly by train, bus,
taxi or boat? Where

there

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't a culture of learning about vehicular operation in traffic from

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

early age? Maybe a big city where it never gets truly dark?

All this rhubarb is leading to what? A poor justification after the fact of making your
race-specific statement? You mention the ethnicity, and think up of the reason afterwards?
You're not thinking hard enough.

Asia's a big place. I would have to be from there to be able to "discriminate" between different
ethnicities.

No, you only have to open your eyes and look around you a little more discerningly. However, you've
missed the point again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I know of someone who's learning to drive now as a mature adult who grew

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in a tiny village in a country where cars are very rare. One day she

may be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

out on our roads.

Relevance of this?

Are we allowed to wonder?

About any logic in your statements? Yes, we are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roald Dahl relates a drive with his 21 year old sister during the 1920's

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

his book "Boy" -incredibly dangerous due to the lack of training or entrenched motorised
transport culture.

Ditto.

Can you extrapolate?

Can you be more coherent and relevant?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Thailand has the highest rate of road fatalities in the world at 40

deaths

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for every 100,000 people, or 2.9 people dying an hour, a researcher said yesterday.... about
17,520/year. ...six million people were injured in traffic accidents and 100,000

crippled

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for life last year, according to the National Health Institute." -from online news sources

Australian drivers may not be great, but obviously our transport safety culture is better than
some. Annual road toll here is ~1750.

Comparative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

populations 61 vs 19million. I'm sure car ownership rates are higher

here

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but the scooters/motorbikes there would skew the figures.

Excellent. You've just explained that it is about ethnocentrism after all. You got pulled up for
mentioning race in your observation, and then you dig up unrelated statistics to justify it.
Where is the link to cycling in the dark witout lights while wearing dark clothes?

I thought someone else had already mentioned the danger of "stealth" riding.

So provide the connections between Thai road fatalities and cycling in the dark in NSW, quality of
Australian drivers and cycling in the dark in NSW, Australian road tolls and cycling in the dark in
NSW, and Australian car ownership and cycling in the dark in NSW.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know the woman you saw was Thai? Thais don't make up the whole of Asia. "Asians" can
come from many countries in the region.

What????

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You probably could do with the benefit from a doubt though: why don't you think harder on why
you thought ethnicity was important in describing a disagreeable event? You might be unaware of
your own unintentional prejudices.

The event wasn't disagreeable to me. I was alright, Jake. She (is that an allowable word) could
easily have come to a disagreeable end. Would that have been evolution in action?

You still dodge the question: what's her ethnicity to do with her behaviour?

Quoted message said:

Mark Lee

John L :

Quoted message said:

OK I'm a racist in YOUR eyes, because I can recognise the differernce in the colour of a persons
skin & don't feel anyone need apologise for the colour of their skin.

No, you are a racist because you see nothing wrong with attributing anomalous behaviour to a
person's ethnicity. Describing someone who you think is wrong, in terms of that person's ethnicity,
attributes that wrongdoing to the person's ethnicity (whether intentional or not). That is racism,
no matter how well you make yourself out to be every culture's friend. Recognising skin colour by
itself is not the issue, but recognising the skin colour of someone you think is inferior or has
committed an inferior act in some way (eg someone who does something wrong) is.

Quoted message said:

Your idea of me being a racist is based on your faulty perception of my acceptance of other races.

You divert arguments poorly. Don't raise irrelevant issues.

Quoted message said:

You are a judgmental racist of the worst kind, I pity you & your dumb PC rrhetoric.. You also have
the unmitigated gall to assume you know what my conversations with my friends are about. We
usually laugh about our OWN racial pecululiarities, you dunderhead.

Ditto above.

Quoted message said:

John L.

Trevor S said:

John L <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Congratulations John, for recognising the BS put out by the PC.

Some of my best mates are also Filipino, Fijian Indian, American Indian, Yank, Chinese, etc. We
recognise the difference in skin colour & racial characteristics between us (we aren't blind),
and all joke about it, I guess that makes us all racist in the eyes of the PC zealots.
Strangely we all think the diversity is what makes the world such a wonderful place.

I think the real difference is that we retain our sense of humour, & treat each other as
equals, while acknowledging the difference between us.

You retain your sense of humor because it _is_ between friends. The same thing becomes vitrolic
when it isn't.

Yes it is still racism, no matter how you dress it up or dispair at others for pointing it out.

Trevor S

John L :

Quoted message said:

Mark,

Maybe we should be attending PC classes together. We both obviously have a twisted view of this
new touchy, feely, apologise for having an opinion, world, where everyone is the same colour & has
no opinion on anything :-)

If PC classes will improve your PC skills, then by all means do so. Computers these days progress at
such a fast rate, no one can blame you for wanting to improve your keyboard skills.

While you're at it, maybe you can attend awareness classes as well, or perhaps just travel outside
the country for a bit. It might widen your perceptions just a little. Your defensive stance in
lumping together all those issues you mention above show your obvious ignorance.

Since you apologise for Mark quite vigorously, why don't you answer the question he dodges: what
does the ethnicity of the woman he posted about have to do with her behaviour? If none, then why
mention it when it serves no logical purpose whatsoever, except to tie in that particular behaviour
with ethnicity?

Quoted message said:

John L.

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:05:31 GMT, "Mark Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Yawn.

I've worked all round the world, never had a problem witn any of the people, apart from the
nitpicking anal retentitives, who pop up every now & then anywhere in the world.

I don't have to support Mark's argument, because the problem lies between your ears, in what appears
to be a particularly thick head.

John L.

Jose Rizal _@_._ said:

If PC classes will improve your PC skills, then by all means do so. Computers these days progress
at such a fast rate, no one can blame you for wanting to improve your keyboard skills.

While you're at it, maybe you can attend awareness classes as well, or perhaps just travel outside
the country for a bit. It might widen your perceptions just a little. Your defensive stance in
lumping together all those issues you mention above show your obvious ignorance.

Since you apologise for Mark quite vigorously, why don't you answer the question he dodges: what
does the ethnicity of the woman he posted about have to do with her behaviour? If none, then why
mention it when it serves no logical purpose whatsoever, except to tie in that particular behaviour
with ethnicity?

Quoted message said:

John L.

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 08:05:31 GMT, "Mark Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote:

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: John Doe:

You dont seem to get that you are the racist and I just love everyone despite the title. You should
organize to get that chip rubbed off your shoulder.

"kingsley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: On Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:46:37 +1000, Tony wrote:
:
: > Saw a classic this morning while driving to work in Canberra, a bike
rider
: > dressed in black in the fog!!
:
: Hang on...
:
: Isn't fog all _white_ though ?!

careful. Its not white its just fog. You can have a mix of smog and fog which is not quite white so
you cannot say all fog is white.

"Jose Rizal" <_@_._> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
: John Doe:
:
: It is your sort of comments that propagate the notion that there is nothing to be improved in the
: way some people perceive others without being affected by colour or culture. You exemplify the
: people who like to pretend that we are all living in a harmonious society where people's
: ethnicities are irrelevant to issues of equality and acceptance. Get your head out of the sand.

You do not know me well enough to make such comments. I am the first to fire up over truly racist
comments and not just a descriptive term. It is you who saw that the original comment was intending
to lump a race or age or

On the other hand, if you described a co-worker as "An Asian man who
: does not wash his hands after going to the toilet; what a filthy person", are you able to see the
: implication of mentioning his ethnicity, when it is in fact completely irrelevant?

I would not mention that. I would say Jo is a filthy man who does not wash his hands as he was a
co-worker and I would use his name as I knew him. This is an exaggeration as to what was originally
posted. It was describing a situation where the person was anonymous.