wheel overhaul (not)

[email hidden] vaguely muttered something like ...

Quoted message said:

Hi

Another problem: recently took a rear wheel off to give the hub an
overhaul.

It's an oldish (18 year) wheel: 6 speed freewheel and hub.

Replaced the bearings and regreased. Tightening up the cones I noticed
that, if it was tight enough so there was no wobble, the wheel
practically seized up. Loosening it so that the wheel rotated freely I
find alot of up/down movement in the wheel. Plus an amount of grease
leaking out. What might be the problem and is this situation dangerous?
The bearings should have been the right size as I went to a bike shop
with an original. One cup had a little notch in it but I wouldn't think
this enough to display such a freezing up once the cone is tightened?

Even worse, now that I have tried to helped the hub, replacing the
wheel on the bike I find that, on the smallest cog, the chain is
rubbing against the front derailleur! Am not sure how that has
happened. You wouldn't expect to have to adjust the derailleur after a
hub overhaul so what have I done this time?!

Any help appreciated - I'm trying to learn about all aspects of bike
maintenance but seems like I'm making things worse!

ccc r

When you tighten the cups up, with the wheel out of the bike, only tighten
them very loosely. ie there can be a small amount of movement. When the
wheel is tightened into the frame, the looseness is taken up.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A [censored] is a [censored], no matter what mode of transport they're using."

29/11/2004 22:43:18
[email hidden] wrote in message
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Tightening up the cones I noticed
that, if it was tight enough so there was no wobble, the wheel
practically seized up. Loosening it so that the wheel rotated

freely I

Quoted message said:

find alot of up/down movement in the wheel. Plus an amount of

grease

Quoted message said:

leaking out.

I could be wildly wrong here, but a thought that struck me is that
you might have too many ball bearingins in there. Try taking one out
of each side and see if that helps. (My thought process being that
tightening it up to the point of 'no wobble' leaves no room for the
balls to roll round the cup and cone, loosening it until it turns
freely leave too big a gap, hence the grease falling out, the wobble
and the chain line too far over)
HTH
Colin

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi

Another problem: recently took a rear wheel off to give the hub an
overhaul.

It's an oldish (18 year) wheel: 6 speed freewheel and hub.

Replaced the bearings and regreased. Tightening up the cones I noticed
that, if it was tight enough so there was no wobble, the wheel
practically seized up. Loosening it so that the wheel rotated freely I
find alot of up/down movement in the wheel. Plus an amount of grease
leaking out. What might be the problem and is this situation dangerous?
The bearings should have been the right size as I went to a bike shop
with an original. One cup had a little notch in it but I wouldn't think
this enough to display such a freezing up once the cone is tightened?

Even worse, now that I have tried to helped the hub, replacing the
wheel on the bike I find that, on the smallest cog, the chain is
rubbing against the front derailleur! Am not sure how that has
happened. You wouldn't expect to have to adjust the derailleur after a
hub overhaul so what have I done this time?!

Any help appreciated - I'm trying to learn about all aspects of bike
maintenance but seems like I'm making things worse!

I suspect the bearings may not have been the correct size,
if the wheel is 18 years old the bearing would probably
be in an imperial measurement, the new ones being metric.
I suspect you were given something that looked similar but were
either to small or too big. This might explain the derailler prob too.
But you might expect to have have to adjust the deraileur anyway.

Also if the ball bearing were worn (pretty likely) replacing them
with a similar size bearing wont help much.

Maybe a new wheel or hub is in order however judging by you
experience so far I suspect changing the hub is well beyond you
(and me for that matter), its a highly skilled art probably only
done by ( or with the aid of) machine these days, as anyone
who has ever tried to remove a buckle from a wheel will have found.

Quoted message said:

ccc r

half_pint said:

Maybe a new wheel or hub is in order however judging by you
experience so far I suspect changing the hub is well beyond you
(and me for that matter), its a highly skilled art probably only
done by ( or with the aid of) machine these days, as anyone
who has ever tried to remove a buckle from a wheel will have found.

Not at all, the OP is now a skilled wheelsmith, having built his first
very recently. 🙂

--

Call me "Bob"

"More oneness, less categories,
Open hearts, no strategies"

Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:41:11 -0000, "half_pint"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Maybe a new wheel or hub is in order however judging by you
experience so far I suspect changing the hub is well beyond you
(and me for that matter), its a highly skilled art probably only
done by ( or with the aid of) machine these days, as anyone
who has ever tried to remove a buckle from a wheel will have found.

I don't think so. All the best wheels are built by hand. Even my wheels
are built by me and I'm no highly skilled artisan.
Wheel building is within the scope of anyone who is methodical and patient.
It's not usually economical to built a wheel from scratch but the job
satisfaction is high and the developed skill is useful.

A difference between wheel building and de-buckling can be that a new rim is
already pretty true before building whereas a severely damaged (as in
pretzled) rim is actually deformed rather than just slightly untrue. A badly
damaged rim may be repaired sufficiently to get home by jumping on it,
pulling, pushing and adjusting spoke tension but inevitably will need
binning.

Pete

in message <[email hidden]>, half_pint

(') said:

Maybe a new wheel or hub is in order however judging by you
experience so far I suspect changing the hub is well beyond you
(and me for that matter), its a highly skilled art probably only
done by ( or with the aid of)  machine these days, as anyone
who has ever tried to remove a buckle from a wheel will have found.

Changing a hub means, essentially, rebuilding the wheel, and it's
extremely likely on a wheel of this age that some of the spokes won't
survive the process, so you'll need to replace at least some. Unless
the spoke circle diameter on the new hub is the same as the old hub
(i.e. the diameter of the circle on which the spoke holes are drilled,
not the diameter of the individual holes) you'll need new spokes
anyway. You can still get screw-on type hubs from e.g. St John's Street
Cycles <URL:http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat106.htm>.
Remember that the 'over-locknut' (OLN) dimension is important - if your
old one is a 126mm (which it proably is) don't get a 130mm and
vice-versa.

It isn't hard to rebuild a wheel, and there's good instructions on the
web (e.g. here: <URL:http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html>😉. If
you want to keep using your current frame without modifying it
rebuilding is probably your only answer, as I suspect you'd be unlikely
to find a new wheel that will fit. Just be patient and careful and take
your time.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig subject to change without notice ]

"Peter B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:41:11 -0000, "half_pint"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Maybe a new wheel or hub is in order however judging by you
experience so far I suspect changing the hub is well beyond you
(and me for that matter), its a highly skilled art probably only
done by ( or with the aid of) machine these days, as anyone
who has ever tried to remove a buckle from a wheel will have found.

I don't think so. All the best wheels are built by hand. Even my wheels
are built by me and I'm no highly skilled artisan.
Wheel building is within the scope of anyone who is methodical and

patient.

Quoted message said:

It's not usually economical to built a wheel from scratch but the job
satisfaction is high and the developed skill is useful.

A difference between wheel building and de-buckling can be that a new rim

is

Quoted message said:

already pretty true before building whereas a severely damaged (as in
pretzled) rim is actually deformed rather than just slightly untrue. A

badly

Quoted message said:

damaged rim may be repaired sufficiently to get home by jumping on it,
pulling, pushing and adjusting spoke tension but inevitably will need
binning.

Yes my only experience of 'wheel building' is in trying to get a buckle
out of a wheel, that is probably significantly more difficult, if not
impossible
(as I found!). Basically if you get the buckled bit central, you just throw
the rest of the wheel off centre.

Fortunately I hve not been able to buckle the wheels on my mountaiin
bike they are far more robust than a 'standard wheel' which are very
easilly damaged.

Quoted message said:

Pete

half_pint said:

Yes my only experience of 'wheel building' is in trying to get a buckle
out of a wheel, that is probably significantly more difficult, if not
impossible
(as I found!). Basically if you get the buckled bit central, you just throw
the rest of the wheel off centre.

Depends how bad the buckle is. If you could pull the buckle back to
the centre you probably could have got the wheel pretty close to true.

Quoted message said:

Fortunately I hve not been able to buckle the wheels on my mountaiin
bike they are far more robust than a 'standard wheel' which are very
easilly damaged.

What is a standard wheel and how easily damaged do you think they are?
A well built wheel should be able to go for thousands of miles of hard
riding without going out of true.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

"Dave Kahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

half_pint said:

Yes my only experience of 'wheel building' is in trying to get a buckle
out of a wheel, that is probably significantly more difficult, if not
impossible
(as I found!). Basically if you get the buckled bit central, you just

throw

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the rest of the wheel off centre.

Depends how bad the buckle is. If you could pull the buckle back to
the centre you probably could have got the wheel pretty close to true.

And probably pull the rest of the wheeel out of true, i think you would
probably need to remove the rim, and hammer/bend it flat and round first.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fortunately I hve not been able to buckle the wheels on my mountaiin
bike they are far more robust than a 'standard wheel' which are very
easilly damaged.

What is a standard wheel and how easily damaged do you think they are?

They look petty similar to these pretty big with a thinish rim
http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/itemviewer.asp?ID=13&type=wheels

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and a
mountain bike wheel.

Quoted message said:

A well built wheel should be able to go for thousands of miles of hard
riding without going out of true.

Not it you ride it up and down a few curbs.

Quoted message said:

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and a
mountain bike wheel.

Hey - I don't know the difference, and I've built a few in my time. Hub -
check. Spokes - check. Rim - check. What's the difference then?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A well built wheel should be able to go for thousands of miles of hard
riding without going out of true.

Not it you ride it up and down a few curbs.

Down them will be fine. Up will be too if you have suitable tyres on.
(suitability being a mix of pressure, size, and how hard you actually hit
the curb).

Of course the question is why are you riding on these curbs?

clive

"Clive George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and a
mountain bike wheel.

Hey - I don't know the difference, and I've built a few in my time. Hub -
check. Spokes - check. Rim - check. What's the difference then?

Pop down to Halfords and they will tell you the difference between a
standard
and mountain bike wheel, best not to ask a female assistant ;O)
(no offence ladies).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A well built wheel should be able to go for thousands of miles of hard
riding without going out of true.

Not it you ride it up and down a few curbs.

Down them will be fine. Up will be too if you have suitable tyres on.
(suitability being a mix of pressure, size, and how hard you actually hit
the curb).

Of course the question is why are you riding on these curbs?

"Because they were there" :O|

regards

half_pint

Quoted message said:

clive

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Clive George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mountain bike wheel.

Hey - I don't know the difference, and I've built a few in my time.

Hub -

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

check. Spokes - check. Rim - check. What's the difference then?

Pop down to Halfords and they will tell you the difference between a
standard and mountain bike wheel, best not to ask a female assistant ;O)
(no offence ladies).

But who should I ask if I want an answer from somebody who actually knows
about bikes?

clive

"Clive George" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pop down to Halfords and they will tell you the difference between a
standard and mountain bike wheel, best not to ask a female assistant ;O)
(no offence ladies).

But who should I ask if I want an answer from somebody who actually knows
about bikes?

Not half_pint, that's for sure.

--
Dave...

"half_pint" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Dave Kahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Depends how bad the buckle is. If you could pull the buckle back to
the centre you probably could have got the wheel pretty close to true.

And probably pull the rest of the wheeel out of true, i think you would
probably need to remove the rim, and hammer/bend it flat and round first.

You appear to be posting your advice from a position of deep
ignorance. I suggest you check Sheldon's pages on wheel truing. If you
really want to understand wheels you might try reading The Bicycle
Wheel by Jobst Brandt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is a standard wheel and how easily damaged do you think they are?

They look petty similar to these pretty big with a thinish rim
http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/itemviewer.asp?ID=13&type=wheels

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and a
mountain bike wheel.

I now know what /you/ mean by standard, but I'm puzzled as to why you
think an MA3 is a standard rim and a typical MTB rim is not.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A well built wheel should be able to go for thousands of miles of hard
riding without going out of true.

Not it you ride it up and down a few curbs.

Yes, including kerbs. Dropping off them is no problem at all. Riding
up them you should hop or at least unweight the bike.

--
Dave...

in message <[email hidden]>, half_pint

(') said:

"Dave Kahn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

half_pint said:

Fortunately I hve not been able to buckle the wheels on my mountaiin
bike they are far more robust than a 'standard wheel' which are very
easilly damaged.

What is a standard wheel and how easily damaged do you think they
are?

They look petty similar to these pretty big with a thinish rim
http://www.cyclestore.co.uk/itemviewer.asp?ID=13&type=wheels

I am pretty sure you know the difference between a standard wheel and
a mountain bike wheel.

Speaking as someone who has built wheels both for road bikes and for
mountain bikes, I don't know of any difference, apart from the fact
that mountain bikes mostly (but not always) use 26 inch rims and road
bikes mostly (but not always) use 700c rims.

Bigger tyres do, of course, help protect the rims from damage.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.

Dave Kahn said:

You appear to be posting your advice from a position of deep
ignorance. I suggest you check Sheldon's pages on wheel truing.

You appear to be posting your advice from a position of deep
ignorance. I suggest you check half-wit's posting history;-)

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

You might have a point there: I'll try and remove one on each side.
When the new ones were put in, there was about 1/2 -3/4s of a ball
diameter spare room. I thought this about right, however, this is a new
thing for me!

Thanks

ccc r

Hi

You may have a point too! They were definitely very worn with a lot of
metal debris mixed in with the grease (they were last changed in early
90s). Also, I thought I'd try out a different bike shop when I got the
new bearings (at the same time that I was looking for spokes etc) and
the service was awful - if anyone wasn't going to care about the
sizing, then it was him!

Given that they were worn, I was thinking that maybe that the new ones
the shop assistant gave me were smaller. But this seizing up when
tightening a little seems to indicate too large bearings! My only other
thought is to try and find out the proper size of the bearings for the
hub: it's a Maillard OLN 126mm but that's all I know.

Just to explain, I have recently built an all-new wheel (thread:
"Building a wheel, applying it to an old Record Sprint"😉 and this hub
overhaul is really an exercise for me to improve maintenance
experience.

Cheers

ccc r

Hi Simon

Thanks for advice. Replacement wheel's built, at a recent Cambridge
course. You're right, the wheel is so old: the spokes are dodgy, the
rim is terrible, the hub's probably worthless. I'm just using it to
practise on. Good job as well as you can see!

Thanks

ccc r