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10K race report

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
20 November 2004
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28 November 2004
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Vimal
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  1. Hello folks,

    I ran a 10K this morning at El Paso, Texas. The course was a tough one
    (for me): it was hilly as well as full of rolling hills. The course was
    also an out and back course, so rolling hills was not good news for me.

    At any rate, my finish time was 44:40. Other statistics include
    finishing 22 overll and 5/24 in my age group (20-29). I also beat my
    previous best and only other 10K time of 51:17 by a big margin. I do
    not have any splits or mile times available since there were no mile
    markers on the course. This annoyed me quite a bit since I had no idea
    how I was pacing myself. I just went with plan B where I ran by feel:
    not to feel out of breath on the uphill part and try not to make time
    up on the downhill parts. I did, however, try to stick with the lead
    woman and eventually finished a minute behind her.

    Overall, I was not displeased with my time. I can only conjecture about
    my time on a flat course: 43 minutes. This race was put up by the El
    Paso police department's Race Against Drugs program. I guess I
    contributed my $0.02 (maybe more?) to that cause 🙂.
    thanks for reading,

    -Vimal

  2. What kind of training did you do to take 6-7mins off your time?

    Steve S.
    "Vimal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Hello folks,

    I ran a 10K this morning at El Paso, Texas. The course was a tough one
    (for me): it was hilly as well as full of rolling hills. The course was
    also an out and back course, so rolling hills was not good news for me.

    At any rate, my finish time was 44:40. Other statistics include
    finishing 22 overll and 5/24 in my age group (20-29). I also beat my
    previous best and only other 10K time of 51:17 by a big margin. I do
    not have any splits or mile times available since there were no mile
    markers on the course. This annoyed me quite a bit since I had no idea
    how I was pacing myself. I just went with plan B where I ran by feel:
    not to feel out of breath on the uphill part and try not to make time
    up on the downhill parts. I did, however, try to stick with the lead
    woman and eventually finished a minute behind her.

    Overall, I was not displeased with my time. I can only conjecture about
    my time on a flat course: 43 minutes. This race was put up by the El
    Paso police department's Race Against Drugs program. I guess I
    contributed my $0.02 (maybe more?) to that cause 🙂.
    thanks for reading,

    -Vimal

  3. Vimal said:

    Overall, I was not displeased with my time. I can only conjecture about
    my time on a flat course: 43 minutes. This race was put up by the El
    Paso police department's Race Against Drugs program. I guess I
    contributed my $0.02 (maybe more?) to that cause 🙂.
    thanks for reading,

    Congrats on the race. That's a huge improvement. Hills will make a difference,
    but not minutes worth. Personally, my race times over hills have not been
    significantly slower than those on flat courses. Sure it makes a difference,
    but it's small enough that other factors can trump it (wind, turns on the
    course, random variation in performance) At the rate you're improving, you
    may well get to 43 minutes before long anyway.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  4. Quoted message said:

    What kind of training did you do to take 6-7mins off your time?

    I just worked on my running consistent miles per week. My mileage for
    last six weeks is as follows:

    33.5
    38.8
    33.1 (ran a half M)
    30.4
    33.9 (started playing around with "speed" work. tempo runs)
    35.0 (started playing around with "speed" work. tempo runs)

    I don't think I benefitted a lot in this race from my tempo runs. I
    guess being consistent is the key.

    -Vimal

  5. thanks for the feedback Donovan. I tired to quantify how much I lost
    due to the hills, but lack of mile markers made this hard if not
    impossible. The all uphill section was in the first part of the course
    probably in the first 5K. So, one probable way would have been to look
    at the first 5K split and then compare it to split from my best race, a
    8K race I ran in october. At any rate, I hope to graduate to the 6-6:59
    class in the next few months 🙂.

    -Vimal

  6. thanks for the feedback Donovan. I tired to quantify how much I lost
    due to the hills, but lack of mile markers made this hard if not
    impossible. The all uphill section was in the first part of the course
    probably in the first 5K. So, one probable way would have been to look
    at the first 5K split and then compare it to split from my best race, a
    8K race I ran in october. At any rate, I hope to graduate to the 6-6:59
    class in the next few months 🙂.

    -Vimal

  7. "Vimal" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I ran a 10K this morning at El Paso, Texas. The course was a tough one
    (for me): it was hilly as well as full of rolling hills. The course was
    also an out and back course, so rolling hills was not good news for me.

    There are two kinds of races: ones where you go for Personal Bests, and
    ones where you go for placement and test your racing strategy. Looks like
    you did very well.

    Quoted message said:

    At any rate, my finish time was 44:40. Other statistics include
    finishing 22 overll and 5/24 in my age group (20-29). I also beat my
    previous best and only other 10K time of 51:17 by a big margin.

    You smashed it! My first 10k was only 2 1/2 minutes slower than my eventual
    PR, in comparison.

    Quoted message said:

    Overall, I was not displeased with my time. I can only conjecture about
    my time on a flat course: 43 minutes.

    One way to find out..... :-)

  8. Vimal said:

    Hello folks,

    I ran a 10K this morning at El Paso, Texas. The course was a tough one
    (for me): it was hilly as well as full of rolling hills. The course was
    also an out and back course, so rolling hills was not good news for me.

    At any rate, my finish time was 44:40. Other statistics include
    finishing 22 overll and 5/24 in my age group (20-29). I also beat my
    previous best and only other 10K time of 51:17 by a big margin.

    Congratulations on crushing your old PB 🙂

    Quoted message said:

    I do
    not have any splits or mile times available since there were no mile
    markers on the course. This annoyed me quite a bit since I had no idea
    how I was pacing myself. I just went with plan B where I ran by feel:
    not to feel out of breath on the uphill part and try not to make time
    up on the downhill parts.

    This is the way many people run all the time anyway, esp. on trails
    since they don't use mile/km markers. Running by feel, rather than pace,
    makes a lot more sense on hilly courses since if the hills are
    substantial, you will slow or burn extra fuel (short races you may be
    able to do this without dire consequences). While people don't usually
    phrase it as trying "to make time up on the downhill parts", smart
    runners *do* take advantage of the boost from gravity on the downhills,
    assuming they're not excessively steep ("steep" is defined in terms of
    runner's perceptions, training, and experience). I might also add that
    definitions of "hill" and "hilly" vary by people also.

    And if you learn to run by feel (and it sounds like you've been doing
    that), you don't get bummed out when the course markers are absent or
    misplaced or batteries to whatever thingamabob people use for pacing /
    effort die 😉

    I did, however, try to stick with the lead

    Quoted message said:

    woman and eventually finished a minute behind her.

    Overall, I was not displeased with my time. I can only conjecture about
    my time on a flat course: 43 minutes.

    Don't worry about adjusting times based on assumptions. This is your
    time for this course. Period. If you want a time for a flat race, then
    run one.

    Congratulations on a nice race.

    Dot

    --
    "The eagle, who believed he was a chicken, wasn't. However, until he
    discovered what he was, he was limited to live as one."
    -Unknown but quoted from Lisa Butler on ultra list


  9. Quoted message said:

    Hills will make a difference, but not minutes worth


    __

    imo "it depends" (here we go again...). no, seriously...for a skilled &
    trainer runner at your level Donnie...I can see your opinion. but your opinion
    is born out of extensive hill training & i think that influences your
    diminished concern the penalty hills can impose on one's time. However for
    where Vimal is today...imo those hills in the course of his 10K could indeed
    account for minutes. i've read were for runners significantly above Vimal's
    level, a hilly 10K can cause overall performance to be 2.6% slower (which is
    about 1 minute for a 37min. 10K runner). it's not a reach at all to see a
    44min 10K runner pay a 2 min. penalty to the running gods. congrats Vimal. i
    think the article i've placed below will give you a full picture of the
    innerworkins of the hill thing.

    Hit the Hills
    by Trevor Smith
    For Running & FitNews

    The good news is hills are leg strengtheners and character builders, the bad
    news is they slow you down during races. Although you run slower uphill and
    faster downhill they don't counterbalance; if everything else is equal, your
    times on hilly courses are slower than on level courses of the same distance.
    Let's see why that happens, and how you can use hills to improve your running.

    The Science of Hill Running
    Best racing times come with an even pace; in technical language, you should run
    for constant energy output. In turn, this means you need to keep your oxygen
    intake the same, and keep your lactate level constant. Lactate is a by-product
    of anaerobic effort, and when it builds up to high levels in your muscles they
    tire and slow down. The shorter the distance the faster you run, then you run
    with more anaerobic effort which increases your lactate build-up.

    Uphill running adds to the problem. It takes more energy, so you need more
    oxygen. If you were running as fast as you could on the level, your breathing
    and heart rates were already close to their limit, so the amount of extra
    oxygen you can make available is relatively small. The result is that uphill
    you go into oxygen debt. You use more anaerobic energy, and your lactate level
    goes up.

    Jeffery Staab, Ph.D., and colleagues at Springfield College in Massachusetts,
    help us understand why this messes up our overall times on hilly runs.

    Fifty miles a week men who run better than 38 minutes for 10K ran three
    "treadmill courses." One was flat, the others hilly; one with uphill first, and
    the other with downhill first. For race atmosphere, the runners rested the day
    before each trial, ran in racing shoes, received mile splits, and ran for
    prizes. Each "race" was a 30 minute run. It didn't matter whether the uphill
    section came before the downhill section or the other way around, the hilly
    runs were slower.

    When you run uphill you slow as your body tries to maintain constant energy
    output. In spite of the uphill slowdown, Staab found oxygen uptake and
    heartrate still increased, and blood lactate increased considerably. Pace
    stayed slower than usual when the men ran flat sections following uphill
    running, and blood lactate stayed high. This means there was a period of forced
    recovery from the anaerobic cost of running uphill. Slowdown on flat sections
    was greatest when they followed an uphill which was later in the "race."

    On downhill sections oxygen uptake went down. This means the runners couldn't
    run fast enough on downhill sections to maintain constant energy output. This
    could be due to residual fatigue from the uphill effort, or, perhaps the
    runners couldn't handle faster running for mechanical reasons. The overall
    result was a race pace about 2.6% slower on the hilly trials. This is
    equivalent to adding 58 seconds to a 37 minute 10K. Staab concluded, "...On
    hilly courses large amounts of lactate accumulate on uphill which remain
    relatively high on subsequent stages of the race. The slower performance time
    on hilly versus flat race courses may be due to the higher energy cost of the
    uphill, which is not compensated for on the downhill."

    Strategy for Hill Racing
    Let's think about this. If you include hills, intervals, fartleks, and spells
    at 5K race pace in your training, you will push up your anaerobic threshold,
    the point at which you'll build up lactate above normal levels. Then you can
    run faster and still stay in your aerobic zone. This won't avoid the problems
    described in Staab's study, because you're a competitive animal you'll take
    advantage of your extended aerobic zone to race uphill even faster. This will
    leave you with the same problem, you still won't compensate on downhill
    sections.

    There seems to be only one answer: race slower than usual uphill. This will
    hold down lactate build-up and let you recover more quickly and run faster
    downhill. How fast you can run downhill may then depend mainly on how fast you
    can move your legs and keep your balance, because there are biomechanical
    limitations to downhill running. Editorial Board Member Paul Taylor, D.P.M.,
    says "Downhill running tends to cause over- striding at some point, which leads
    to increased use of braking muscles to keep you form falling on your face.
    Also, running too fast downhill is a common cause of shinsplints." If you could
    run a little slower uphill and then run faster downhill, overall, your race
    times on hilly courses could improve.

    Can you handle this strategy? When you're well trained and feel ready to peak,
    do you really have the will power to hold back on the first uphill? It goes
    against the grain, doesn't it? All your competitive instincts tell you to
    attack that hill with a surge. Also, when you really burn that first hill
    doesn't the sense of feeling good carry over during the rest of the course, and
    keep you flying when folks who struggled on that hill are beginning to die?

    The science is neat, but don't underestimate the psychology. For all the
    ingenuity of Staab's experiments, they were still a bunch of guys fighting a
    treadmill, with tubes in their mouths and catheters in their arms. Somehow that
    doesn't add up to racing in a crowd of pumped up runners, on solid roads, under
    an open sky, with live spectators. Surely that's worth as much as a few
    milligrams of lactate saved?

    But on second thoughts, nearly a minute off a 10K by running slower uphill in
    order to run faster downhill; is it really possible? Can you afford not to give
    it a try? Suppose someone else tries it first: and it works? You'd better go
    for it!

    The Art of Hill Training
    To race faster on hills you must train on hills. First, you can include hill
    intervals in your workouts. You need a hill of 100 to 200 yards, not too steep,
    so you can run uphill with good form. A grade of not more than 10% works fine.
    Warmup for a couple of miles, then surge up your hill at about 10K race pace,
    and jog down for recovery. Run four repeats first time, increase by one a week
    until you complete eight to 12 hills. Marathoners can run longer hills, up to
    about a mile. Run one at first at about marathon race pace, and increase one a
    week until you can handle four repeats.

    For added value on hills use springing and bounding drills. The value of these
    techniques arises from the principle that your feet act like springs when you
    run; they store energy when the muscles and tendons are compressed and release
    energy when they expand. British scientist R. McNeill Alexander, F.R.S.,
    measured the recoil energy of human feet to prove they behaved like springs.
    Alexander described feet as like pogo sticks which compress their springs on
    landing and recoil to throw the jumper back into the air. He found the human
    arch on impact returns 80% of its stored energy. By comparison, running shoes
    of the 1980s returned 55% to 69% of stored energy on impact. Alexander's
    research is the foundation of the design of modern tracks, built to aid energy
    transfer and help athletes run faster.

    You can't change the mechanical properties of the surfaces you run on, but you
    can improve the elastic properties of your feet and legs by springing and
    bounding. Push off with a more forceful ankle motion and toe-off, push higher
    and with a longer stride than normal, and land on your midfoot, or even toes,
    not on your heel.

    In the 1960s Arthur Lydiard, coach of numerous outstanding runners, such as
    Peter Snell, who earned Olympic medals and broke world records, included
    springing drills in his programs. In 1978, Lydiard wrote about hill springing.
    "Since ankle flexibility and power is important you should work on this
    training all the time. Bouncing up gentle slopes on your toes will gradually
    develop power and flexion in the ankles. It will also stretch other leg muscles
    and tendons." Approach these drills with caution, though, because Editorial
    Board Member Pete Pfitzinger reminds us "Lydiard's men were often injured
    during this training phase."

    A more recent adaptation of hill springing is in Galloway's Book on Running.
    "Pick a moderate hill. Bounce off one foot and leap into the air lifting lead
    knee. Hang in the air until the last second. Very quickly bring the leading leg
    down for a landing, and spring off with the leg almost straight. Here's where
    the ankle has to do its work. Never let the push-off leg be perfectly straight.
    Keep the knee slightly bent to avoid spraining the weak and slow-healing
    muscles behind the knee. Keep a short stride length, just work on floating and
    maintaining form."

    According to Galloway, bounding is a variation performed on level or slightly
    sloping surfaces. Differences from hill springing are: "Lift knees higher. Take
    longer strides. On each step you are driving with greater power, extending your
    stride and developing your calf muscles."

    David Martin and Sebastian Coe (Training Distance Runners) also recommend
    similar techniques for short hill runs. "An exaggerated running style is
    required to maximize speed, as this spreads the energy requirement to large
    muscle groups other than the legs. Once gain, the vigorous arm action, a quick
    and powerful knee lift by action of the hip flexors, and the powerful toe-off
    from each driving leg are all important elements for sudden dramatic pace
    changing..."

    Even though you're an experienced runner, treat springing and bounding like any
    other new exercise, because although they will help you to deliver more energy
    in your running, they take more energy to perform, too. Begin with only 20 to
    50 feet and concentrate on form; use your arms to drive your legs. As you
    become familiar with these techniques, slowly build until you can keep them up
    for 100 yards. If you run long one day a week, and perform speedwork once a
    week, add a little springing and bounding to your low intensity runs for
    variety. Your racing should improve after a few weeks.

    All these techniques aim at strengthening your uphill running. Taylor points
    out that since usually running downhill you don't make up the time you lost
    running uphill, you should train to improve your downhill running, too. Try
    some downhill sections once a week in which you try to run smoothly at
    increasing pace, just short of the speed which brings you to the point of
    losing your balance. With practice, you should be able to maintain balance at
    faster paces. Editorial Board Member Jerry Lynch, Ed.D., suggests shorter
    strides with quicker turnover will help develop better downhill technique.

    Above all, you need a positive mental attitude toward hills. If you dread hills
    you will not run your best on them. Lynch, advises "Turn hate into love." You
    must affirm that you love hills for the boost they will put into your races.
    Love hills because they make you a better runner, and they give you a
    psychological boost over other runners who still hate them. Affirm over and
    over, I love hills, I love hills..." says lynch. See how you'll set off a chain
    reaction. You'll love hills and you'll improve your hill running. Improvement
    brings self-esteem and enjoyment which will reinforce your love of hill
    running. Then your race times will improve, which will make you happy and also
    reinforce your love for hills. Then you'll work out even harder on the hills...

    I bet you can't wait to put this article down, tie on your shoes, and hit those
    hills.

    Just about all the studies on hill running involve performance and racing. How
    about hills compared to level running for people interested only in health and
    fitness. Clearly those who run hills will run a little slower overall, and
    their oxygen uptake will vary uphill and downhill. But the work performed
    during running is determined mainly by bodyweight multiplied by distance, the
    calories burned will be similar, which means the health benefits will be
    similar.

    There might be a slight improvement in oxygen uptake and leg muscle strength in
    hill runners, but for slow running you wouldn't expect this to be significant.
    At slow pace there's no reason to expect any increase in injury risk as long as
    you don't make sudden changes in mileage or speed.

    Copyright, The American Running Association.

  10. Lanceandrew said:


    is born out of extensive hill training & i think that influences your
    diminished concern the penalty hills can impose on one's time. However for
    where Vimal is today...imo those hills in the course of his 10K could indeed
    account for minutes.

    You ran about 1min slow in Van Cortlandt (5k) last year, and that was *coming
    off a marathon*.

    Past of that penalty comes from the terrain (cinder trail as opposed to road).
    So to get a 2min penalty for 10k, you'd need a tougher course than VC. But
    it's almost impossible for a road course to have grades like that (there are
    legal restrictions on how steep road gradients can be)

    Quoted message said:

    i've read were for runners significantly above Vimal's
    level, a hilly 10K can cause overall performance to be 2.6% slower (which is
    about 1 minute for a 37min. 10K runner). it's not a reach at all to see a
    44min 10K runner pay a 2 min. penalty to the running gods.

    It's all speculation util you post the faster time, and in this case, it's not
    even evidence-based speculation.

    Nice article btw.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  11. I took ten minutes off my last 10K, I stopped my stop watch at mile three and
    then restarted it at mile four. Hell, next year I may give the Kenyans a run
    for their money.

  12. Quoted message said:


    I took ten minutes off my last 10K, I stopped my stop watch at mile three and
    then restarted it at mile four. Hell, next year I may give the Kenyans a run
    for their money.

    Do you have a sweet lil' skinny butt like them? That is required to run that
    fast.
    Bobby <lieing in wait for the answer>

  13. Quoted message said:

    I took ten minutes off my last 10K, I stopped my stop watch at mile three and
    then restarted it at mile four.

    You must be one of George Bush's budget experts. The economy is booming.

  14. Vimal said:
    Quoted message said:

    What kind of training did you do to take 6-7mins off your time?

    Quoted message said:

    I just worked on my running consistent miles per week. My mileage for
    last six weeks is as follows:


    ....

    Consistency is the way to go.
    Personally, I've gotten more consistent this year
    and I believe I am starting to see the results.

    Congrats on the new PR.

    jobs

  15. Quoted message said:


    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
    _____

    so donnie, isn't the JK 10K race in 3 weeks a big team race? might be cold
    but i imagine you're targeting it to do a 10K PR? that race brings out all
    the competitive runners for sure. i can remember 2 years ago...it was in the
    upper 20s F...I think.....I did that race in 40:04, 6:27/mile and that got me
    in the top 200 by the thinnest of margins...(184th place). all the runners
    come out to play for this race.....

  16. Lanceandrew said:
    Quoted message said:


    so donnie, isn't the JK 10K race in 3 weeks a big team race? might be cold

    Yes, a team pointer.

    Quoted message said:

    but i imagine you're targeting it to do a 10K PR?

    Absolutely.

    Quoted message said:

    that race brings out all
    the competitive runners for sure. i can remember 2 years ago...it was in the
    upper 20s F...I think.....I did that race in 40:04, 6:27/mile and that got me
    in the top 200 by the thinnest of margins...(184th place). all the runners
    come out to play for this race.....

    Yep. The team pointers bring in a much more competitive field. In my two best
    non-team points races, I finished top 20 overall and won age group awards. The
    non team pointers are almost trophy hunts for me now, but the only way I win
    anything at the team pointers is via team awards.

    In the best team points races I've run, I finished 49th and 55th. I finished
    34th in queens but it was a weaker field because of the remoteness of the
    location.

    The club champs has the toughest field -- I didn't even make the top 100. The
    top 50 ran at 5:30 or faster, and the top 10 went sub 26, and the weather was
    lousy for that race (I was a minute slower than my PR).

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  17. Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote:
    .....

    Quoted message said:

    The club champs has the toughest field -- I didn't even make the top 100. The
    top 50 ran at 5:30 or faster, and the top 10 went sub 26,


    .....

    sub-26? In a 10K?
    I'm guessing that's a typo.

    jobs

  18. Quoted message said:

    Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ....

    Quoted message said:

    The club champs has the toughest field -- I didn't even make the top 100. The
    top 50 ran at 5:30 or faster, and the top 10 went sub 26,


    ....

    sub-26? In a 10K?

    The club champs is 5 miles.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm guessing that's a typo.

    They were sub 26 for 5 miles.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  19. Quoted message said:

    Consistency is the way to go. Personally, I've gotten more consistent


    this year and I believe I am starting to see the results.
    Absolutely. What kind of training plan do you have for the winter. I
    remember from your post that you wanted to do 5:30 for a mile (indoor?)
    and sub 19 5K,

    Quoted message said:

    Congrats on the new PR.


    thanks J.

    -Vimal

  20. Donovan Rebbechi said:
    Quoted message said:


    sub-26? In a 10K?

    Quoted message said:

    The club champs is 5 miles.

    Alright, that makes sense.

    jobs

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