Question For Benjo

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein thrombosis
(blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis (blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

Thanks, Benjo.

I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein
thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging of
the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading to
leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep veins
from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can lead to
thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of Ferrari with
Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went from 38.8 to 51
during a period of six months.

I happened across this when Googling deep vein thrombosis polycythemia. OJ
sends his regards.:-)

http://www.cochranfirm.com/askourdoctors-dvt.html

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis (blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein

thrombosis

Quoted message said:

(blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

Do you know what Joane Somarriba almost died from during her career?

thanks,

B-

B. Lafferty said:

I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein
thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging of
the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading to
leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep veins
from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can lead to
thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of Ferrari with
Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went from 38.8 to 51
during a period of six months.

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
120 days).
OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc.
that years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the
legs. Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some
unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have
problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting
relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and
emboli are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations
like this.

http://tinyurl.com/4l4qf

Steve

Quoted message said:

I happened across this when Googling deep vein thrombosis polycythemia. OJ
sends his regards.:-)

http://www.cochranfirm.com/askourdoctors-dvt.html

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis (blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein
thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging of
the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading to
leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep veins
from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can lead to
thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of Ferrari
with Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went from 38.8
to 51 during a period of six months.

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to cause
"sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After discontinuing
EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few months at most
(IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120 days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein while
using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys had
hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Quoted message said:

OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that
years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs.
Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some
unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have
problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting
relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and emboli
are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations like
this.

I agree that it is a problem that is in fact a major public health issue.
IIRC, DVT and resultant PE kills more people than heart attacks and AIDS in
the USA.

Quoted message said:

http://tinyurl.com/4l4qf

Steve

Quoted message said:

I happened across this when Googling deep vein thrombosis polycythemia.
OJ sends his regards.:-)

http://www.cochranfirm.com/askourdoctors-dvt.html

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
>problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
>Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis (blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few
months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120
days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein while
using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys had
hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:o66od.18676$233.16988@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
120 days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein while
using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys had
hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
> 120 days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing vet?
If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why doesn't she
know the second part or at least know where to find the answer?

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
> 120 days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing vet?
If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why doesn't she
know the second part or at least know where to find the answer?

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
> 120 days).

Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing vet?
If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why doesn't she
know the second part or at least know where to find the answer?

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rm6od.18679$233.347@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
>> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
>> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
>> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
>> 120 days).
>
> Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
> directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
> while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
> had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.
>

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing
vet? If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why
doesn't she know the second part or at least know where to find the
answer?

Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist. She couldn't be bothered
checking. We have enough human doctors lurking around here that we should
be able to get an answer, if there is one. I doubt there have been any
clinical studies of retired cyclists who raced under EPO with hematocrits of
60%+.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rm6od.18679$233.347@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
>> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
>> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
>> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
>> 120 days).
>
> Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
> directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
> while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
> had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.
>

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing
vet? If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why
doesn't she know the second part or at least know where to find the
answer?

Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist. She couldn't be bothered
checking. We have enough human doctors lurking around here that we should
be able to get an answer, if there is one. I doubt there have been any
clinical studies of retired cyclists who raced under EPO with hematocrits of
60%+.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rm6od.18679$233.347@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
>> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
>> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
>> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
>> 120 days).
>
> Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
> directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
> while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
> had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.
>

Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing
vet? If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why
doesn't she know the second part or at least know where to find the
answer?

Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist. She couldn't be bothered
checking. We have enough human doctors lurking around here that we should
be able to get an answer, if there is one. I doubt there have been any
clinical studies of retired cyclists who raced under EPO with hematocrits of
60%+.

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein
thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging of
the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading to
leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep veins
from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can lead to
thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of Ferrari
with Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went from 38.8
to 51 during a period of six months.

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to cause
"sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After discontinuing
EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few months at most
(IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120 days).
OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that
years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs.
Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some
unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have
problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting
relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and emboli
are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations like
this.

It was because of the thrombosis that Furlan ended his career.

Benjo

"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health
problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are?
Thanks.

I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein

thrombosis

Quoted message said:

(blood knots in the leg).

Benjo

Do you know what Joane Somarriba almost died from during her career?

I don't know. I'm afraid I don't know much of women's cycling. :-(

Benjo

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rm6od.18679$233.347@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

>>>
>>> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
>>> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
>>> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a
>>> few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about
>>> 120 days).
>>
>> Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
>> directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
>> while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
>> had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.
>>
>
> Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
> repairable over time as well.

Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing
vet? If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why
doesn't she know the second part or at least know where to find the
answer?

Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist. She couldn't be bothered
checking. We have enough human doctors lurking around here that we
should be able to get an answer, if there is one. I doubt there have been
any clinical studies of retired cyclists who raced under EPO with
hematocrits of 60%+.

If you doubt there have been any clinical studies of retired cyclists who
raced under EPO with hematocrits of 60%+, then your board certified wife
probably wasn't qualified to give an answer to the first part of your
question, either "I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use.".

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:nT7od.18683$233.7712@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Rm6od.18679$233.347@okepread05...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
>>>> cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
>>>> discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within
>>>> a few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is
>>>> about 120 days).
>>>
>>> Sludging several years later is not an issue. My question is really
>>> directed toward what damage, if any, may have been done to the vein
>>> while using the EPO, especially in the pre-50% period when these guys
>>> had hematocrits in the 60%+ range.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe you should ask your vet. And ask if such damage is permanent or
>> repairable over time as well.
>
> Not her area of expertise as an ophthalmologist.

Do you have two wives, or is your wife an ophthalmological specializing
vet? If she knew the answer to the first part of your question, why
doesn't she know the second part or at least know where to find the
answer?

Board certified veterinary ophthalmologist. She couldn't be bothered
checking. We have enough human doctors lurking around here that we
should be able to get an answer, if there is one. I doubt there have
been any clinical studies of retired cyclists who raced under EPO with
hematocrits of 60%+.

If you doubt there have been any clinical studies of retired cyclists who
raced under EPO with hematocrits of 60%+, then your board certified wife
probably wasn't qualified to give an answer to the first part of your
question, either "I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use.".

Wrong, Carl. The issue she raised is simply whether or not one of the deep
veins was damaged by leakage caused by sludging and therefore more
susceptible to causing a deep vein thrombosis down the road. She raised a
question and gave no answer.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein
thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging
of the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading
to leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep
veins from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can
lead to thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of
Ferrari with Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went
from 38.8 to 51 during a period of six months.

This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to
cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After
discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few
months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120
days).
OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that
years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs.
Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some
unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have
problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting
relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and
emboli are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations
like this.

It was because of the thrombosis that Furlan ended his career.

Benjo

Thank you, Benjo. So it looks like the effects may well have been immediate
and grave. What do you think, Carl?