"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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B. Lafferty wrote: > I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein > thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by > sludging of the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the > vein leading to leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the > stress on deep veins from cycling years using EPO can result in > vein damage that can lead to thrombosis problems a few years later. > Furlan was a patient of Ferrari with Ferrari's records indicating > that Furlan's hematocrit went from 38.8 to 51 during a period of > six months.
This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120 days). OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs. Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and emboli are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations like this.
It was because of the thrombosis that Furlan ended his career.
Benjo
Thank you, Benjo. So it looks like the effects may well have been immediate and grave. What do you think, Carl?
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health > problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are? > Thanks.
I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis
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(blood knots in the leg).
Benjo
Do you know what Joane Somarriba almost died from during her career?
I don't know. I'm afraid I don't know much of women's cycling. :-(
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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B. Lafferty wrote:
>I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein >thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging >of the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading >to leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep >veins from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can >lead to thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of >Ferrari with Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went >from 38.8 to 51 during a period of six months.
This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about 120 days). OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs. Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and emboli are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations like this.
It was because of the thrombosis that Furlan ended his career.
Benjo
Thank you, Benjo. So it looks like the effects may well have been immediate and grave. What do you think, Carl?
Whoa. I don't think you can infer that any thromboses were drug-related. I know doctors are very concerned about emboli from these. My dad was flat on his back for 2 weeks with this (we thought he'd finally stop smoking then, but he waited several years more). It is a valid question though if the cyclists who died after EPO abuse were known to have suffered deep leg thromboses.
Epo use leading to very high haematocrit (Hct) will increase the risk of DVT's only whilst the Hct is high. This risk mainly seems to happen when the heart rate is low so it was not uncommon in the bad old days for cyclists to wear HR monitors all the time so that they could hear the alarm if the HR got too low. Intuitively letting yourself get dehydrated would further increase the risk of getting a DVT if your Hct is high.
Neither the Epo nor the high Hct damage veins nor cause leakage on their own so there is not a higher risk of DVT's later on. However, iIf you have had a previous DVT, this will damage veins and will mean you are at increased risk of further DVT's in the same leg later in life.
"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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B. Lafferty said:
"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"Steven Bornfeld" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
> >B. Lafferty wrote: > >>I wonder if this might be the after effect of EPO use. Deep vein >>thrombosis, according to my veterinary wife, can be caused by sludging >>of the blood (high hematocrit) which causes damage to the vein leading >>to leakage. I suppose the issue is whether or not the stress on deep >>veins from cycling years using EPO can result in vein damage that can >>lead to thrombosis problems a few years later. Furlan was a patient of >>Ferrari with Ferrari's records indicating that Furlan's hematocrit went >>from 38.8 to 51 during a period of six months. > > >This sounds unlikely to me. I think if the blood is thick enough to >cause "sludging" the effects would be immediate and grave. After >discontinuing EPO, the crit probably would return to normal within a >few months at most (IIRC, the average life of an erythrocyte is about >120 days). >OTOH, I would guess that depending upon saddle style, posture, etc. that >years of sitting in the saddle could affect venous return from the legs. >Without getting into gruesome details, I've personally seen some >unpleasant effects. Furthermore, perfectly healthy people can have >problems with leg thromboses in certain circumstances, such as sitting >relatively immobile on a long transatlantic flight. Thrombosis and >emboli are becoming more recognized as a significant risk in situations >like this.
It was because of the thrombosis that Furlan ended his career.
Benjo
Thank you, Benjo. So it looks like the effects may well have been immediate and grave. What do you think, Carl?
Whoa. I don't think you can infer that any thromboses were drug-related. I know doctors are very concerned about emboli from these. My dad was flat on his back for 2 weeks with this (we thought he'd finally stop smoking then, but he waited several years more). It is a valid question though if the cyclists who died after EPO abuse were known to have suffered deep leg thromboses.
Steve
"May well" is not a definitive statement. I think it is a good bet that it is EPO related, but it would need to be clarified by his treating physician. I don't think it is necessarily the case that cyclists would have dies from this given that the treating team or independent doctors, like Ferrari, know what to look for in the regard as to EPO after the deaths in the early 1990s.
"May well" is not a definitive statement. I think it is a good bet that it is EPO related, but it would need to be clarified by his treating physician. I don't think it is necessarily the case that cyclists would have dies from this given that the treating team or independent doctors, like Ferrari, know what to look for in the regard as to EPO after the deaths in the early 1990s.
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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B. Lafferty said:
"May well" is not a definitive statement. I think it is a good bet that it is EPO related, but it would need to be clarified by his treating physician. I don't think it is necessarily the case that cyclists would have dies from this given that the treating team or independent doctors, like Ferrari, know what to look for in the regard as to EPO after the deaths in the early 1990s.
OK, Counselor! ;-)
Steve
Ach! The curse of being trained in the law. Words count for so much and we are taught to weigh them very carefully--not that we always do. ;-)
"gym gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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B. Lafferty said:
according to my veterinary wife,
Can she score me some EPO? My wife won't get me any. She knows that I can't take any shortcuts.
EPO--no. Artificial blood, they do use. About a year ago I received several inquiries via email from people wanting to know if I could score some for them through my wife. I told her and the result is that the hospital now treats artificial blood as they do narcotic medications. Sorry.
Subject: Re: Question For Benjo From: "benjo maso" [email hidden] Date: 11/21/2004 2:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health > problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are? > Thanks.
I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein
thrombosis
Quoted message said:
(blood knots in the leg).
Benjo
Do you know what Joane Somarriba almost died from during her career?
I don't know. I'm afraid I don't know much of women's cycling. :-(
"Jason Waddell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Subject: Re: Question For Benjo From: "benjo maso" [email hidden] Date: 11/21/2004 2:32 PM Central Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > "B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I've just learned that Ivan Gotti and Georgio Furlan have had health > > problems since retiring. Any idea what those problems are? > > Thanks. > > > I don't know about Gotti, but Furlan was suffering from deep vein thrombosis > (blood knots in the leg). > > Benjo
Do you know what Joane Somarriba almost died from during her career?
I don't know. I'm afraid I don't know much of women's cycling. :-(
Benjo
neither do any other cycling fans...
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thanks, jason
That was helpful Jason, can you answer the question? There are a few who know quite a bit about women cycling that I know of, but they can't remember either. I ran across an article a while back, but I can't find the link anymore.
There are a few who know quite a bit about women cycling that I know of, but they can't remember either. I ran across an article a while back, but I can't find the link anymore.
"Joana Somarriba, born in Bilbao on August 11, 1972, has a very special story to tell. In 1992, she was very ill as a consequence of an infection. Is seemed that she would be paralyzed for the rest of her life. But with her extraordinary courage she came back to racing two years later. Winning the Giro was her best result so far. The President of the Spanish Cycling Federation was present to follow the last stage and congratulate her at the end. The only action in the last stage came at the 3 kms to go mark when Gabriella Pregnolato attaked alone and she went on to win. She also won the first stage in Misano Adriatico. " http://au.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jul99/girofem9912.html
and in bad translation- "Somarriba, of 31 years, is one of the best runners of the present time and has in addition in his palmarés two triumphs in Turns to Italy. In October it conquered the gold medal in the test race against the clock of the World-wide Championship. After surpassing a discal operation of hernia that was on the verge of leaving it quadriplegic in 1992, it returned to the cycling and since then it has harvested successes." http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.eldeber.com.bo/20040130/deportes_9.html
"h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Sierraman said:
There are a few who know quite a bit about women cycling that I know of, but they can't
remember
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Quoted message said:
either. I ran across an article a while back, but I can't find the link anymore.
"Joana Somarriba, born in Bilbao on August 11, 1972, has a very special story to tell. In 1992, she was very ill as a consequence of an infection. Is seemed that she would be paralyzed for the rest of her life. But with her extraordinary courage she came back to racing two years later. Winning the Giro was her best result so far. The President of the Spanish Cycling Federation was present to follow the last stage and congratulate her at the end. The only action in the last stage came at the 3 kms to go mark when Gabriella Pregnolato attaked alone and she went on to win. She also won the first stage in Misano Adriatico. " http://au.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jul99/girofem9912.html
Thanks Heather. I think there is another article that tells the nature of his illness, and stated she almost died from it.
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and in bad translation- "Somarriba, of 31 years, is one of the best runners of the present time and has in addition in his palmarés two triumphs in Turns to Italy. In October it conquered the gold medal in the test race against the clock of the World-wide Championship. After surpassing a discal operation of hernia that was on the verge of leaving it quadriplegic in 1992, it returned to the cycling and since then it has harvested successes."
Interesting, yet different again from one I read a while back and does gives some details. Makes me wonder how it happened, if cycling related or otherwise.
"Sierraman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
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Interesting, yet different again from one I read a while back and does gives some details. Makes me wonder how it happened, if cycling related or otherwise.
She was a runner and she had a collapsed disk in her neck (I believe). Not all that uncommon. The danger to her was probably over-dramatized but nevertheless I'm sure it was present.
