American Running

Lanceandrew said:

how bad is american running?

i was just checking out the latest iaaf men's road running rankings and
thanks to immigration & meb, an american has cracked the top 10! my
goodness, thanks again to immigration and khalid....of the men's top 50 road
runners....two are americans! but i have a question. how does japan have
_5_ native born men in the top 50 rankings and the u.s.a. not a single
u.s.a. born runner in the top 50?

http://www.iaaf.org/worldrankings/index.html

The problem is deeper than you think it is. There just isn't a whole lot of
depth to the American part of the competition. In the 80s, you'd get half a
dozen or so Americans who would run a 2:11 or faster. How many are there who
do this today ?

NYC marathon results:

sub 2:20:

1978: 14
1979: 26
1980: 33
1982: 47
1983: 63
1984: 13
1985: 20
1990: 16
2000: 12
2004: 17

sub 2:20 American runners:

1978: 33
1990: 0
2000: 0
2004: 4

100th place:

1978: 2:32
1979: 2:31
1980: 2:28
1982: 2:25
1983: 2:23
1984: 2:36
1985: 2:32
1990: 2:36
2000: 2:37
2004: 2:40

Quoted message said:

it's nearly 2005. there have been elite training programs in oregon,
california, & colorado now for over 25 years.

Well, they are working. Ryan Shay had a top 10 finish in the NY marathon.
Culpepper, Kastor, and Meb ran well in Athens. Bob Kennedy has been doing
fairly well, but until very recently, he was strictly track. And there are
some signs of improvement on the sub 2:20 front.

Quoted message said:

i can't buy climate/terrain arguments, alternative sports or culture
arguments....

My argument is that until there are more than a handful of sub 2:40 marathoners
in this country, there will not be many sub 2:10 marathoners either.

How many people in Kenya do you think can go sub 2:20 ? At a marathon in
Nairobi at altitude, 26th place was a 2:20. How many can go sub 2:40 ? Put
it this way, if a Kenyan marathon drew 30,000 runners, I'd expect that more
than 100 of them would go sub 2:40.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

how does japan have _5_ native born men
in the top 50 rankings and the u.s.a. not a single u.s.a. born runner in
the
top 50?

Support, national pride, and status. Running simply
means more to the average Japanese person than an
American.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton ON)
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
www.allfalldown.org

"Lanceandrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

how bad is american running?

i was just checking out the latest iaaf men's road running rankings and

thanks

Quoted message said:

to immigration & meb, an american has cracked the top 10! my goodness,

thanks

Quoted message said:

again to immigration and khalid....of the men's top 50 road

runners....two are

Quoted message said:

americans! but i have a question. how does japan have _5_ native born

men

Quoted message said:

in the top 50 rankings and the u.s.a. not a single u.s.a. born runner in

the

Quoted message said:

top 50?

http://www.iaaf.org/worldrankings/index.html

it's nearly 2005. there have been elite training programs in oregon,
california, & colorado now for over 25 years. strikes me as a bit

astonishing

Quoted message said:

that the u.s.a. has not had one male born in the 70's & 80's who's been

able

Quoted message said:

to be mentored and guided along to stand in the top 50 rankings

today....not a

Quoted message said:

signle one!..... i have much respect for japan, their culture & people.

kudos

Quoted message said:

to japan for producing 10% of the top 50 male road runners in the world,

and

Quoted message said:

the #1 ranked woman road runner.

i can't buy climate/terrain arguments, alternative sports or culture
arguments....those salazar-nike programs in oregon & colorado altitude
running...in 20+ years of effort....not one male has risen through this

stuff?

Quoted message said:

forget the kenyans...what's japan doing right to completely kick our

collective

Quoted message said:

asses in road running? no, i don't think americans have any right of
entitlement of anything. but we've been seriously trying for 20+

years....just

Quoted message said:

like the japanese have been. somehow the japanese produce results, what's

our

Quoted message said:

problem?

My coach thinks superior athletes choosing other sports, such as baseball,
basketball, football, etc. which have more visibility and opportunity to
turn talent into cash as being part of the problem in the US.

Parker

Parker Race said:

Quoted message said:

My coach thinks superior athletes choosing other sports, such as baseball,
basketball, football, etc. which have more visibility and opportunity to
turn talent into cash as being part of the problem in the US.

Parker

Bingo. Who gets the date with the cheerleader to the prom? The
football hero or the track nerd?

Why bust your butt for years so you MIGHT get a shoe sponsorship that
allows you to quit your second job when a back-up utility infielder,
bench sitter in the NBA, etc earns a couple million? From the same
shoe company!

Talent follows the money.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Lanceandrew said:

how bad is american running?

i was just checking out the latest iaaf men's road running rankings and
thanks
to immigration & meb, an american has cracked the top 10! my goodness,
thanks
again to immigration and khalid....of the men's top 50 road runners....two
are
americans! but i have a question. how does japan have _5_ native born men
in the top 50 rankings and the u.s.a. not a single u.s.a. born runner in the
top 50?

http://www.iaaf.org/worldrankings/index.html

You need to be fair to the women (native born):

.. (9.) Deena DROSSIN-KASTOR 73 USA 1254

Quoted message said:

it's nearly 2005. there have been elite training programs in oregon,
california, & colorado now for over 25 years. strikes me as a bit
astonishing
that the u.s.a. has not had one male born in the 70's & 80's who's been able
to be mentored and guided along to stand in the top 50 rankings today....not
a
signle one!..... i have much respect for japan, their culture & people.
kudos
to japan for producing 10% of the top 50 male road runners in the world, and
the #1 ranked woman road runner.

Be realistic here. Compared to world class track, American road racing isn't
much of a competitive sport, and the real athletes aren't there. Bob Kennedy
used to compare US road racing with B or junior races in Kenya, and true to his
word, he didn't go near road racing until he was done on the track. Only a
couple of US road races--basically Carlsbad, Falmouth, and maybe a couple
others--that can attract world class talent from ANYWHERE. There was a
interrview with the CEO of Saucony recently where he said that marathons aren't
about winning anymore, they're about finishing. Unfortunately, he's right:
Road Racing isn't really a competitive sport in the US these days--it's a
fitness event. There are a few people like Khalid, Meb, Deena, and Marla
Runyan picking up some cash, but mostly it's people who couldn't dream of
competing with them on the track, or in Chicago or London.

You'll probably be able to see Alan Webb in the USATF XC championships, but
don't expect to see him in a local road race any time soon.

On the track, our results are somewhat different. Alan Webb ended 2004 ranked
#11, David Krummenacker was #3 in 2002 and #21 this year, Jearl Miles-Clark is
#4 at 800, and we had a bunch of people in the top 50 in EACH of the men's and
women's 800 and 1500. US male sprinters won 8 or the available 9 individual
medals in Athens. We ARE getting the athletes to compete with the rest of the
world--they just don't want to do distance running.

Quoted message said:

i can't buy climate/terrain arguments, alternative sports or culture
arguments....those salazar-nike programs in oregon & colorado altitude
running...in 20+ years of effort....not one male has risen through this
stuff?
forget the kenyans...what's japan doing right to completely kick our
collective
asses in road running? no, i don't think americans have any right of
entitlement of anything. but we've been seriously trying for 20+
years....just
like the japanese have been. somehow the japanese produce results, what's
our
problem?

There was a recent interview with Brad Hudson (the Boulder coach who's program
Ritz just joined) where Hudson pointed out that out of every 100 athletes who
go into a Japanese program, maybe 2 survive--but those two become world class.
The Kenyans sort of follow this same approach for long distance (their middle
distance guys go to St. Patricks). We cannot do this successfully in the US,
because there isn't the base of athletes with world class potential talent
coming into the system. If we burn out a Tim Broe, there isn't anyone else to
take his place (unlike the situation we have in 400 or 800).

Like it or not, in the US we have a two-tiered system. There is track for
elite runners with national/world-class talent. There is an egalitarian road
racing system for the 20 million or so runners who are more of the Runners
World/Fitness/Men's Health persuasion. I don't see this changing, and as Sam
has pointed out in the past, this isn't necessarily bad. Many people would
take 20 million healthier people over a couple more elite marathoners.

You can read Runners World...or you can read Track and Field News. It all
depends on what you feel is important.

Lyndon
"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach
Brooks Johnson

Lyndon said:

Be realistic here. Compared to world class track, American road racing isn't
much of a competitive sport, and the real athletes aren't there. Bob Kennedy
used to compare US road racing with B or junior races in Kenya, and true to
his word, he didn't go near road racing until he was done on the track. Only
a couple of US road races--basically Carlsbad, Falmouth, and maybe a couple
others--that can attract world class talent from ANYWHERE. There was a

Good point. There are a bunch of guys on the elite circuit who could go sub
2:20 in a marathon if that was their primary goal. About Bob -- I remember
reading an interview where he said that it would be "a joke" to run a 10k
road race, and belittled road racing as "a B or a C circuit". So that's why
we didn't see Kennedy (or Culpepper AFAIK) at any of the road races,
not even the ones that drew in guys from the elite circuit like Meb, Abdi,
Shay, Downin, Broe, Fam, Johnson, etc.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Quoted message said:

Be realistic here. Compared to world class track, American road racing isn't

much of a competitive sport, and the real athletes aren't there.
____

lyndon, i am being realistic and i disagree

Quoted message said:

marathons aren't

about winning anymore, they're about finishing.
_____

not quite lyndon. many u.s. marathons have all sorts of incentives to induce /
motivate americans _winning_ and not just finishing. meb's prize money for
"placing" (taking 2nd) in the recent new york marathon was doubled because he's
an American & he finished second. you're just factually wrong here. there are
mechanisms built into the major big city u.s. marathons, financial incentives
to drive americans, and specifically americans, to win, not just finish.
doubling meb's prize money meant he left new york w/$100K+ in his pocket.

Quoted message said:

We cannot do this successfully in the US, because there isn't the base of

athletes with world class potential talent
coming into the system.
____

i simply do not agree with this notion because there are just too many
highschool and collegiate programs. the sheer volume of potential "stock"
doubles, triples, and quadruples that of many other countries. the easy answer
is to point to other sports removing potential talent out of the pool.
nonesense. the "pool" that bypasses the "popular" sports is still gigantic
at the highschool level compared to the pool of numerous other countries.

you can make these same arguments about swimming. 1)no money for 99% of the
people who engage in the sport, 2) the "real athletes" are choosing other
sports rather than swimming. but when it comes to "swimming', we americans
don't make these same excuses do we. Why? For whatever reason, we're capable
of producing a decent class world class athlete in that sport....and i don't
hear the swimming claiming how they lose athetes to other sports and how
there's no $ in the game. also, to swim you have to have access to an olympic
pool which is a incredible barrier to entry for lots of kid$. yet not even
that hurdle prevents us from producing world class swimmers.

Quoted message said:

Many people would

take 20 million healthier people over a couple more elite marathoners.

Quoted message said:

You can read Runners World...or you can read Track and Field News.

___

c'mon lyndon..few things are "either or" and you're basically saying the "tail"
(media) wags the dog (aspiring athletes). having been married to a concert
pianist....i saw first hand the world of aspiring concert musicians, the
international competitions...and how only a very tiny small fraction of the
best from america's best conservatories (oberlin, etc. etc.) ever get to make a
living at their craft. but the u.s.a. can produce world class celloist, etc.
there are a lot of endeavors american youth get channeled/funneled into early
in life and they become passionate about it (even if it does not mean
popularity or even being able to make money).

so lyndon, i read what you've said as basically american programs are not
rigorous enough to produce world class athletes. is that it in a nutshell?
you've said only 2% of the americans that enter a japanese program survive
it....98% wash out....and the americans that can survive come out as as "world
class".

(Lyndon) said:

There was a
interrview with the CEO of Saucony recently where he said that marathons aren't
about winning anymore, they're about finishing.

I imagine that carries across the board to 5K's - 15K's.

I'd be interested to see if the average speed of what might be called
the "good" (non-elite) runners has slowed over the last 10 - 15 years
or so. The guys and gals who make up, say, the next 1/3 of the field
behind the "elite" runners.

In other words, has the "hard core" runner (non-elites) slowed on the
average?

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Quoted message said:

lyndon, i am being realistic and i disagree

Of course the fact that any race result flys in your face won't stop you.

Parker Race said:

My coach thinks superior athletes choosing other sports, such as
baseball, basketball, football, etc. which have more visibility and
opportunity to turn talent into cash as being part of the problem in
the US.

Parker

I believe you are right on the money. I dont' think that's 'part' of the
problem, I think it IS the problem.

Regards,
H.

Mike Tennent <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Why bust your butt for years so you MIGHT get a shoe sponsorship that
allows you to quit your second job when a back-up utility infielder,
bench sitter in the NBA, etc earns a couple million? From the same
shoe company!

Talent follows the money.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

My first inclination is to agree with this - but to a certain extent this
presupposes that those bench sitters in the NBA can run 2:10 or so. I
don't think this is generally true.

While there are a few athletes who have the skills to be able to choose
which professional sport they will pursue, most of them are probably only
good enough at one to reach the pro/elite level.

However, the general premise is still true - talent follows money. Maybe
there are a whole bunch of entrepreneurs and business types who have chosen
to work in finance, rather than pursue athletics at a professional level.

dh

"Mike Tennent" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Parker Race said:

Quoted message said:

My coach thinks superior athletes choosing other sports, such as
baseball,
basketball, football, etc. which have more visibility and opportunity
to
turn talent into cash as being part of the problem in the US.

Parker

Bingo. Who gets the date with the cheerleader to the prom? The
football hero or the track nerd?

Why bust your butt for years so you MIGHT get a shoe sponsorship that
allows you to quit your second job when a back-up utility infielder,
bench sitter in the NBA, etc earns a couple million? From the same
shoe company!

Talent follows the money.

Money is definitely a factor if not THE factor. Too may other sports
that pay real money and produce HEROES to keep the cycle going. Running
gets a teeny blip on the radar every 4 years with the Olympics which
lasts two weeks. Turn any kids on? Hardly. Want to see running? Turn on
ESPN24 or is it ESPN99 at 2 in the morning with infomercials. Poker gets
more attention. IMO, running in the USA is DEAD and will stay dead
without a real sponsorship to create heroes and turn the cycle around.

-DF

-DF

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Harris said:

My first inclination is to agree with this - but to a certain extent this
presupposes that those bench sitters in the NBA can run 2:10 or so. I
don't think this is generally true.

While there are a few athletes who have the skills to be able to choose
which professional sport they will pursue, most of them are probably only
good enough at one to reach the pro/elite level.

Well, not exactly. It doesn't necessarily mean that the NBA players
would be 2:10 Marathoners if they weren't in the NBA. What it means is
that a lot of the potential 2:10 Marathoner pool chose to do basketball
(or football, or baseball, or hockey) instead of running at some point.
Some of those potential running stars played through high school or
college, didn't make it to the pros, and quit playing. But by then it
was too late to magically switch over to being a running star or--more
likely--it didn't occur to them it was a possibility.

I agree that just because you're in the NBA doesn't mean you could play,
say Major League Baseball (can you say "Michael Jordan"?). But some of
these guys could play more than one sport (Antonio Gates played
basketball in college, not football, but he'd be rookie of the year in
the NFL if Roethlisberger weren't a rookie this year as well), and the
real issue is how many people get pulled from the running pool and
placed in these other pools instead.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Mike Tennent said:

(Lyndon) said:

There was a
interrview with the CEO of Saucony recently where he said that marathons aren't
about winning anymore, they're about finishing.

I imagine that carries across the board to 5K's - 15K's.

I'd be interested to see if the average speed of what might be called
the "good" (non-elite) runners has slowed over the last 10 - 15 years
or so. The guys and gals who make up, say, the next 1/3 of the field
behind the "elite" runners.

In other words, has the "hard core" runner (non-elites) slowed on the
average?

See the stuff I posted on the NY marathon in the thread.

It would be interesting to see if this pattern occurs across the board.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Lance thinks this [censored] matters........that's cute.

[email hidden] (Lanceandrew) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

i simply do not agree with this notion because there are just too many
highschool and collegiate programs. the sheer volume of potential "stock"
doubles, triples, and quadruples that of many other countries.

I may be talking out of sheer prejudice and ignorance, but
isn´t the US highschool and collegiate system entirely
geared towards producing succesful track and XC meet racers
in the short run?

I´m not entirely sure such a system is really capable of
producing world-class long-distance runners and it could
take an extraordinary - and maybe even a bit of rebellious -
individual talent to survive (and to make it despite) the
system.

Now if Microsoft, Dell or Amzaon had factory teams which
would enroll 18-year-olds with a promise of "Do your best
and we´ll see that you will be looked after for life also
if you don´t make it" - which, I believe, is what a number
of Japanese companies are doing - you could have something
to look forward to:-)

Anders

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Harris said:

My first inclination is to agree with this - but to a certain extent
this
presupposes that those bench sitters in the NBA can run 2:10 or so.
I
don't think this is generally true.

While there are a few athletes who have the skills to be able to
choose
which professional sport they will pursue, most of them are probably
only
good enough at one to reach the pro/elite level.

Well, not exactly. It doesn't necessarily mean that the NBA players
would be 2:10 Marathoners if they weren't in the NBA. What it means is
that a lot of the potential 2:10 Marathoner pool chose to do
basketball
(or football, or baseball, or hockey) instead of running at some
point.

AMEN!!!

Let's see, you're a high school freshman, fall season, and a strong
runner. You can go out for the prestigious football team, a real coach,
has parents and fellow school mates in the stands to root, cheerleaders
to ogle at, many more times the chance to get a college scholarship and
if above average an opportunity to become a professional player and
achieve some financial comforts.

Then there is cross country which offers what? The history teacher
looking to make an extra $2,000 with a copy of XC for dummies under
his/her arm, five or less to watch the home meets, shall we go on.

Track has slightly mort prestige, a few more people to watch. better at
college scholarship and then get your ass off to work. The .0000001
percent that are good get a few bucks from a sponsor and starve for
their beloved sport.

On Saturday we get College football with golf, basketball or a car race
and on Sunday we get professional football with basketball, car race or
golf. The fact that we have ANY world class marathoners is amazing.
Even the most prestigious marathons are televised only on a local TV
feed if at all. We are a recreational running country and I don't see
anything in the cards to change this.

-DF

(Lanceandrew) said:

you can make these same arguments about swimming. 1)no money for 99% of the
people who engage in the sport, 2) the "real athletes" are choosing other
sports rather than swimming. but when it comes to "swimming', we americans
don't make these same excuses do we. Why? For whatever reason, we're capable
of producing a decent class world class athlete in that sport....and i don't
hear the swimming claiming how they lose athetes to other sports and how
there's no $ in the game. also, to swim you have to have access to an olympic
pool which is a incredible barrier to entry for lots of kid$. yet not even
that hurdle prevents us from producing world class swimmers.

That's an excellent point, Lance.

However, one big difference I can see is that the "feeder" pool for
swimming (and other sports) starts out at a much younger level. You
see swimming teams starting at, what, 8 or 9 years old? These kids are
training 4 - 5 days a week, going to meets, etc from the get go. The
good swimmers are identified early on and get the positive
reinforcement needed to stay with it.

The same can be said for the other "major" sports. Pee Wee football,
T-ball, Little League, Under 8 Soccer. They grab the kids young and
get them into a system of competition.

There's nothing remotely similar in running. In fact, we fret when we
read of junior high schoolers running more than a 5K. You'd be shot if
you tried to organize a team of 8 year old sprinters. (Perhaps
justifiably, still if 8 yr olds can play football and soccer...)

Running is a johnny-come-lately sport, an after-thought. That has to
effect the talent pool.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Quoted message said:

Running is a johnny-come-lately sport,

__

you might be on to something. in the u.s.a., i could see it as striking as
politically incorrect and taboo to stress the physiology of youth aged 9-16.
despite decent highschool x/c programs....americans perhaps don't get much of a
headstart (if any at all) by the time they get handed off to a collegiate
program (and by then possibly it's too late and americans are behind the
curve).

perhaps we're saying becoming world class, top 50 long distance, is a journey
that starts when you're in your early teens. those 5 japanese guys in the top
50, men's rankings....i wonder when they started doing beyond 5K training.....

it just might be our culture. american culture that postpones serious long
distance aspirations till you hit the collegiate level....and by then it might
be too late..who knows...