RANS QUALITY

RANS was right, the LBS did let you down. As the reseller (dealer), what value did that LBS add to
the transaction? Doesn't sound like they were very thorough, and you paid the price. It is incumbent
upon the reseller to properly assemble the product, and QA it prior to delivery. If RANS shipped the
bike to you, and there was another issue, say something mechanical, now they are faced with a
dilemma. Was it a quality issue, or faulty assembly due to an inexperienced mechanic putting it
together (*you may be a whiz, but they can't know that). I work for an computer manufacturer, and we
would urge our customer to seek out a different reseller, and possibly decommission that reseller if
things like this became the norm. I understand you may not a have a ready choice of another
reseller, but exclusivity in an area doesn't excuse that reseller from their responsibility.

"Bill in Indiana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I used to own a Rans Rocket. It was a great and fast bike. I was a RANS Church member.

Recently I decided to try a RANS VIVO. I picked up a new one at a wonderful bike shop but when I
got home I noticed a dent in the main tube. The paint was just fine, It almost appeared as if
the frame

was

Quoted message said:

painted with the dent already in it.

The bike shop ordered a new one and a week later I drove another 140 mile round trip to exchange
the bikes. They loaded the boxes on my trailer, as I agreed to

put

Quoted message said:

it together.

Got home and guess what? A DENT IN THE MAIN TUBE. This time it was in a different place. Called
RANS and they stated that their frames are made in Taiwan now (something I did know) and that they
don't open the boxes prior to shipping them to the dealers.

Trying to do them a favor, I wanted them to know the information because there is likely a
problem. What are the odds of a coincidence ? They were kind at first and were going to ship a

frame

Quoted message said:

to my house. However, at the last minute the gentleman stated he would have to send it to the bike
shop, which will require me to drive another 140 mile round trip. He had taken my address and told
me that he would send it to me, only to be interrupted by someone (a [censored] I would assume) and came
back to the phone to tell me I would have make another round trip (3rd time) He got argumentative
and tried to blame the bike shop for not checking the bike (putting it together) before selling it
to me. Ha! TERRIBLE QUALITY

should

Quoted message said:

be caught be the bike shop owner, not the manufacturer!

RANS SUCK (in my opinion) They chose to go to Taiwan and it appears that this has caused me 300
miles of driving and a several long distance phone calls. I used to be in the church, but they
truly are not the same

company

Quoted message said:

in my opinion. You decide for yourself, but beware of damaged bikes.

I wouldn't "hang" RANS or the dealer, very unfortunate, but they are trying to rectify it, RANS is
one of the best in customer service.

baronn1 said:

RANS was right, the LBS did let you down. As the reseller (dealer), what value did that LBS add to
the transaction? Doesn't sound like they were very thorough, and you paid the price. It is
incumbent upon the reseller to properly assemble the product, and QA it prior to delivery. If RANS
shipped the bike to you, and there was another issue, say something mechanical, now they are faced
with a dilemma. Was it a quality issue, or faulty assembly due to an inexperienced mechanic
putting it together (*you may be a whiz, but they can't know that). I work for an computer
manufacturer, and we would urge our customer to seek out a different reseller, and possibly
decommission that reseller if things like this became the norm. I understand you may not a have a
ready choice of another reseller, but exclusivity in an area doesn't excuse that reseller from
their responsibility.

"Bill in Indiana" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I used to own a Rans Rocket. It was a great and fast bike. I was a RANS Church member.

Recently I decided to try a RANS VIVO. I picked up a new one at a wonderful bike shop but when I
got home I noticed a dent in the main tube. The paint was just fine, It almost appeared as if
the frame

was

Quoted message said:

painted with the dent already in it.

The bike shop ordered a new one and a week later I drove another 140 mile round trip to exchange
the bikes. They loaded the boxes on my trailer, as I agreed to

put

Quoted message said:

it together.

Got home and guess what? A DENT IN THE MAIN TUBE. This time it was in a different place. Called
RANS and they stated that their frames are made in Taiwan now (something I did know) and that they
don't open the boxes prior to shipping them to the dealers.

Trying to do them a favor, I wanted them to know the information because there is likely a
problem. What are the odds of a coincidence ? They were kind at first and were going to ship a

frame

Quoted message said:

to my house. However, at the last minute the gentleman stated he would have to send it to the bike
shop, which will require me to drive another 140 mile round trip. He had taken my address and told
me that he would send it to me, only to be interrupted by someone (a [censored] I would assume) and came
back to the phone to tell me I would have make another round trip (3rd time) He got argumentative
and tried to blame the bike shop for not checking the bike (putting it together) before selling it
to me. Ha! TERRIBLE QUALITY

should

Quoted message said:

be caught be the bike shop owner, not the manufacturer!

RANS SUCK (in my opinion) They chose to go to Taiwan and it appears that this has caused me 300
miles of driving and a several long distance phone calls. I used to be in the church, but they
truly are not the same

company

Quoted message said:

in my opinion. You decide for yourself, but beware of damaged bikes.

WRONG. It was not the bike shop. I asked to put the second bike together. (What little there is to
put together.) They obliged only because that was the only way I could haul the thing. IN A BOX. Who
would have thought that TWO BIKES IN A ROW would be damaged? No visible damage on the box. It
clearly isn't shipping damage.

They admit that they don't even check the work coming from Taiwan. They send it out without checking
the work (at least that was what I was told on the phone.) You must have missed that part. You
simply glazed over that fact I guess.

To their credit, they sent out another frame right away. I will hand it to them on that...but I hope
they opened the box and checked for damage! I thought they would be happy to know about these
incidents so as to correct any possible packing problems etc.

I had TWO Greenspeeds shipped from AUSTRALIA and neither one had ANY damage. Quite a difference I
would say.

no doubt it's a manufacturing defect in Taiwan. The reason they don't inspect them is the packing
and unpacking is hard on a bike, they'd probably have more cosmetic damming etc. and just run the
odds. I think it is important you point it out to them, and I think it's more important they stand
by their product, which as far as i know, they always do, always have. Again, an unfortunate and
frustrating experience i'm sure, but be thankful somebody answers the phone these days, and actually
tries to resolve it.

Bill in Indiana said:

WRONG. It was not the bike shop. I asked to put the second bike together. (What little there is to
put together.) They obliged only because that was the only way I could haul the thing. IN A BOX.
Who would have thought that TWO BIKES IN A ROW would be damaged? No visible damage on the box. It
clearly isn't shipping damage.

They admit that they don't even check the work coming from Taiwan. They send it out without
checking the work (at least that was what I was told on the phone.) You must have missed that
part. You simply glazed over that fact I guess.

To their credit, they sent out another frame right away. I will hand it to them on that...but I
hope they opened the box and checked for damage! I thought they would be happy to know about these
incidents so as to correct any possible packing problems etc.

I had TWO Greenspeeds shipped from AUSTRALIA and neither one had ANY damage. Quite a difference I
would say.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The reason they don't inspect them is the packing and unpacking is hard on a bike <<

It also takes somebody's time, which costs money, which ultimately must be paid for by the customer
(who wants the bike to be as friendly to his budget as possible). Bill in Indiana, I think maybe you
just got unlucky. Or it might be that, in your circumstance (70 miles from the bike shop), a
different brand that does more perspicacious inspection (and probably costs more) might be more
economical for you overall.

Of course, if it had happened to me, I'd probably be fuming just like you. 8-)

--
Greg Dunn

"bentbiker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

no doubt it's a manufacturing defect in Taiwan. The reason they don't inspect them is the packing
and unpacking is hard on a bike, they'd probably have more cosmetic damming etc. and just run the
odds. I think it is important you point it out to them, and I think it's more important they stand
by their product, which as far as i know, they always do, always have. Again, an unfortunate and
frustrating experience i'm sure, but be thankful somebody answers the phone these days, and
actually tries to resolve it.

Bill in Indiana said:

WRONG. It was not the bike shop. I asked to put the second bike together. (What little there is
to put together.) They obliged only because that was the only way I could haul the thing.

IN A

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BOX. Who would have thought that TWO BIKES IN A ROW would be damaged? No visible damage on
the box.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

clearly isn't shipping damage.

They admit that they don't even check the work coming from Taiwan. They send it out without
checking the work (at least that was what I was told

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the phone.) You must have missed that part. You simply glazed over

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fact I guess.

To their credit, they sent out another frame right away. I will hand it

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them on that...but I hope they opened the box and checked for damage! I thought they would be
happy to know about these incidents so as to

correct

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any possible packing problems etc.

I had TWO Greenspeeds shipped from AUSTRALIA and neither one had ANY

damage.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quite a difference I would say.

If I were you I'd be done with Rans. If they don't care enough to open a box before sending it off,
then I don't want to deal with them. If they care more about supporting their dealer network than
saving me a 140 mile trip, then I'm through.

If this happened to you twice in a row, how many others has it happened to? This is exactly why
bents aren't more popular. Bent companies #1 objective is to make the cheapest bikes possible.
Objective #2 is kissing LBS ass than the end customer.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being frugal. But they're just cheap because they're
afraid of the risk. The thing is, most of us are willing to pay for quality. When will they learn?

Lawrence Turner said:

IDon't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being frugal. But they're just cheap because
they're afraid of the risk. The thing is, most of us are willing to pay for quality. When will
they learn?

That's why I buy Burley.

Lon HepCat x2 Double Vision

I for one am totally satisfied with my RANS V-Rex. It suits me perfectly, and any dealings that I have had with RANS have been pleasant.

Quality control is very subjective at best. It is difficult enough to try to consistantly manufacture a product to a set of build standards in this country, let alone another. I work as the warranty manager of a major RV corporation and know of the difficulties of quality control.
Build standards, such as they are, are established by someone, or a group of someones, who feel this is the way that it should be. You our I may or may not disagree with their evaluation of what the build standard is. One person may see a scratch in the panneling one way, and another person see that same scratch in another way. Totally a personal evaluation when it comes down to the individual purchase. Corporations realize that they cannot satisfy all the people all the time. It's impossible, so they (mostly) do the best that they can, and offer the best customer service that they can, most times bending over backwards for the customer, even when the customer is at fault. (No judgement being rendered in this particular case.)

Without knowing what RANS build standards are, or who established them it is difficult to pass judgement on RANS products as a whole, based on minimal information. I have to track, code, analyze each line item on every claim that comes in to my corporation just so we can identify the problems and have a goal towards improving the build standard, which we modify all the time.

USA interpretation of the RANS build standards might be interpreted differently in another country. There are so may variables involved in manufacturing, that no product will ever be 100 percent perfect 100 percent of the time.

IMHO

My Turn To "Bill in Indiana" Tell the guy at the top of the food chain @ RANS that you are not a
happy camper. Explain the problem and explain the "lack of customer service" you got from RANS...and
(add) a printout of comments from other bent riders who contributed to this A.R.B.R.thread and I'll
bet you'll get some positive reaction real fast from RANS. RANS (like most) bent makers do not spend
a pile of cash on adverts, they rely on "word of mouth" to sell their product and RANS has always
gone out of their way to co-operate with their customers. One disgruntled customer could easily
bring down a company and damage all that goodwill RANS is well known for. RANS is NOT going to throw
their good reputation away so easily...but tell the owner of the company and stop dealing with the
folks who gave you a rough time in customer service.

You will be doing RANS and all RANS customers (present & future) a diservice by not going to the top
and letting the top know there is a problem in customer service. I have always been a big fan of the
RANS Stratus and V2 design and feel it unfortunate that RANS has to rely upon Taiwan to build what
could so easily be built in America with a little extra $ for tooling...but as long as people
continue to convert to the Church of RANS, then RANS has no $$ incentive to manufacture in
America...re: they are giving customers what their customers are willing to support, so why change
what works.
---------------------------
"Lawrence Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If I were you I'd be done with Rans. If they don't care enough to open a box before sending it
off, then I don't want to deal with them. If they care more about supporting their dealer network
than saving me a 140 mile trip, then I'm through.

If this happened to you twice in a row, how many others has it happened to? This is exactly why
bents aren't more popular. Bent companies #1 objective is to make the cheapest bikes possible.
Objective #2 is kissing LBS ass than the end customer.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being frugal. But they're just cheap because
they're afraid of the risk. The thing is, most of us are willing to pay for quality. When will
they learn?

IMHO Even though you needed the bike in a box to transport it, it was the bike shop's job to open
the box and make sure the bike was ok, not RANS'. This is what retailers are supposed to do. This is
the reason for retailers; to make sure that at that final stage, when the product goes to the end
customer, that it is in good condition, adjusted properly etc.

The only other logical place for inspection is at the factory before the bike goes into the box.
This should be part of factory quality control. If these bikes are dinged at the factory, not in
shipping, RANS needs to have talk with their supplier.

Johnriley1 (at) rogers.com

"Bill in Indiana" <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

I used to own a Rans Rocket. It was a great and fast bike. I was a RANS Church member.

Recently I decided to try a RANS VIVO. I picked up a new one at a wonderful bike shop but when I
got home I noticed a dent in the main tube. The paint was just fine, It almost appeared as if
the frame

was

Quoted message said:

painted with the dent already in it.

[snip]

Bill, does your Vivo have the Rad-Lock seat clamp mechanism? If so, it was my understanding (I could
be wrong) that the Vivo models for this year were to be retro-fitted to Rad-Lock. They had the older
seat slider bracket mounted to the frame, then was removed, and frame air-brushed for touch-up. I
believe removing the bracket in some instances will reveal some ding that can't be removed. I have
pulled off some on older Rans bikes where there would only be some scratches in the paint..

Rick Steele

Gold Country Cyclery 3081 Alhambra #103 Cameron Park, CA 95682 Ph: (530) 676-3305 email:
[email hidden] website: tandems-recumbents.comtandems-recumbents.comOpen ↗

IMHO, bikes coming from Taiwan are never packed as well as they should be. If the mfrs don't open
the boxes to check the bikes, there could be surprises for the LBS. Either the mfr and LBS should
have caught this.

I can almost always tell when I get a test bike that's come to me via a mfr in a box packed in
Taiwan and not opened until I get it. One of my last test bike situations was a bike that arrived
with parts all over the inside of the box (nuts, allen bolts, quick releases etc; parts box ripped
open). I was shocked that everything was still in the box. The bike had other problems with the seat
and seat track, the rear shifting, etc. It was a complete mess (not a RANS).

I heard one story where a mfr showed them how to pack a bike, they did it a few times and went back
their standard procedure. Another problem I've heard of more than once is the Taiwan mfrs switching
their vendors for items such as seat foam, seat mesh, etc, which can result in problems. Sometimes
the company doesn't find out until the problems arise.

We've had far fewer problems with bikes built/ or assembled in the USA, Germany, UK, Australia; or
where the mfr/dlr does at least a bench test prior to shipment to us. I also think that recumbent
specialist dealers know more what to expect and might notice something like this (and keep the end
customer from every noticing any problems), where a regular LBS with limited recumbent experience
might not.

Some "manufacturers" don't really manufacture much these days. It has become more like relabeling.
If there is no stateside QC, a little problem can get out of hand fast. We've seen it before.

I've taken a lot of [censored] for my comments on Taiwan and written about it in RCN 067 and RCN 069
(Taiwan-Built Recumbents — A Bad Thing?). This is a free download at our website.

I have a bit of experience with all of this. I've been taking recumbent test bikes out of boxes
since 1987.

Bob Bryant recumbentcyclistnews.comrecumbentcyclistnews.comOpen ↗

i've had experience with many RANS/SUN/Nils Palm built bikes from Taiwan. I've never had anything
i'd consider a problem to be honest. The welds and finish have always been very good. In fact, the
RANS paint/powder coat is much more "lustrous" since it went over seas, and yes i'm aware of [and
currently have] one of the Rockets is with the supposed "soft paint". All that said, it's an
economic thing, and RANS shouldn't be knocked for having the bikes built there, they are bringing
tremendous product to market at competitive prices. The custom made in the "USA" experience is very
nice also, but the obvious downfall, is [except for Burley] limited supply. Buy from Turner,
Longbikes, Burley and one of my new favorites ORGANIC ENGINES, and get that "home grown"
experience. In this entire thread though, i haven't seen one other RANS/Tawain built bike

complaint. DrRecumbnt said:

IMHO, bikes coming from Taiwan are never packed as well as they should be. If the mfrs don't open
the boxes to check the bikes, there could be surprises for the LBS. Either the mfr and LBS should
have caught this.

I can almost always tell when I get a test bike that's come to me via a mfr in a box packed in
Taiwan and not opened until I get it. One of my last test bike situations was a bike that arrived
with parts all over the inside of the box (nuts, allen bolts, quick releases etc; parts box ripped
open). I was shocked that everything was still in the box. The bike had other problems with the
seat and seat track, the rear shifting, etc. It was a complete mess (not a RANS).

I heard one story where a mfr showed them how to pack a bike, they did it a few times and went
back their standard procedure. Another problem I've heard of more than once is the Taiwan mfrs
switching their vendors for items such as seat foam, seat mesh, etc, which can result in problems.
Sometimes the company doesn't find out until the problems arise.

We've had far fewer problems with bikes built/ or assembled in the USA, Germany, UK, Australia; or
where the mfr/dlr does at least a bench test prior to shipment to us. I also think that recumbent
specialist dealers know more what to expect and might notice something like this (and keep the end
customer from every noticing any problems), where a regular LBS with limited recumbent experience
might not.

Some "manufacturers" don't really manufacture much these days. It has become more like relabeling.
If there is no stateside QC, a little problem can get out of hand fast. We've seen it before.

I've taken a lot of [censored] for my comments on Taiwan and written about it in RCN 067 and RCN 069
(Taiwan-Built Recumbents — A Bad Thing?). This is a free download at our website.

I have a bit of experience with all of this. I've been taking recumbent test bikes out of boxes
since 1987.

Bob Bryant recumbentcyclistnews.comrecumbentcyclistnews.comOpen ↗

Well stated, I wholeheartedly agree.

"john riley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

IMHO Even though you needed the bike in a box to transport it, it was the bike shop's job to open
the box and make sure the bike was ok, not RANS'. This is what retailers are supposed to do. This
is the reason for retailers; to make sure that at that final stage, when the product goes to the
end customer, that it is in good condition, adjusted properly etc.

The only other logical place for inspection is at the factory before the bike goes into the box.
This should be part of factory quality control. If these bikes are dinged at the factory, not in
shipping, RANS needs to have talk with their supplier.

Johnriley1 (at) rogers.com

"Wile E. Coyote" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [...]

Quoted message said:

I have always been a big fan of the RANS Stratus and V2 design and feel it unfortunate that RANS
has to rely upon Taiwan to build what could so easily be built in America with a little extra $
for tooling...[...]

Quality is quality. You can get good or bad regardless of the country of origin. IIRC at the time
the switch was made, it was difficult to get skilled welders in the middle of Kansas.

I would think by now, with your trike experience, you would have some appreciation of the
complexity involved.

john riley

I don't get all the apologizing on behalf of RANS. Some seem to be blaming the dealer, the builder
in Taiwan, when this is ENTIRELY Rans' fault!

Rans sells to the dealer and is a customer of the manufacturer. It's Rans' product. If neither of
these alliances are benefiting the end customer, why develop them in the first place?

If Rans is truly committed to making a quality product and providing quality customer service, they
would build AND sell in house. That way they could monitor everything, from the quality to the
customer experience.

But Rans, and other bent companies, are interested in passing the buck
- and responsibility - to others. Great companies with great products let them stand on their own.
How does Rans fit into this scheme? That, my friend, is why you drove 280 miles (soon to be 420)
for bent frames. If I were you, I'd be getting a damned refund.

I disagree. Rans decision - economical or not - was to outsource mfg oversees. They risked quality
for the sake of price. They profit from the advantaages, why not blame them for the downfalls of
their decision?

Pop Quiz: you visit your LBS and see two great looking bikes side by side. As far as you can tell,
they're identical, but one is 30% cheaper. You inquire on the price difference only to be told, "The
cheaper model is manufactured overseas. We can't be totally sure it was built the way the designer
intended, and it is also subject to improper packaging. Because it was built overseas to save on
costs, certain parts of the bike may wear out sooner than intended."

Which bike do you choose? I know which choice I would make. I am willing to pay for quality. I also
like to see stuff made in America. Other people will do anything to save a dime. I think most are in
the same category as me, but most bents are targeted to the penny pinchers.

(Lawrence Turner) said:

I don't get all the apologizing on behalf of RANS. Some seem to be blaming the dealer, the builder
in Taiwan, when this is ENTIRELY Rans' fault!

----Disclaimer : I have a V-Rex and have had nothing but good experiences with RANS-------

To me " fault" isn't the issue as much as RESPONSILITY. It's RANS product and their name they are
selling ....and their name that is being hurt I might add...and they are RESPONSIBLE. They slelected
the manufacturer and the reseller (LBS)

I own a business and understand how they might have a wayward vendor or reseller that is causing
quality problems - but the problems are NOT the customers.

The bike shop is selling their reputation as well.

My vote - Boo on RANS and Boo on the not so local LBS

[email hidden] (Lawrence Turner) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I disagree. Rans decision - economical or not - was to outsource mfg oversees. They risked quality
for the sake of price. [...]

If they did it because of price, it would be "economical" not "not". And as I said elsewhere, I
don't know that that is the primary reason. It is difficult to have the employees and facilities and
to keep them fully utilized with a handful of low volume products. I think both RANS and Peek did it
more for logistical reasons than price.

I haven't done component by component matching, but it looks to me like Taiwan bikes and US frame
bikes are often in the same price range. _Maybe_ the companies with the Taiwan frames have better
margins, but I don't think either of us know for sure. These bikes are low volume either way.

Outsourcing spreads the risk to other companies who may be in a better position to utilize capacity.
That said, I recognize that outsourcing may make quality control more challenging, but I don't think
it makes it impossible.

If you want to buy a bike with a US frame (note that the components, the actual moving, friction
producing parts are also from various places) that's fine; they are available. But that is no
guarentee of quality. Quality is not dependent on country of origin. Some US frame bikes have had
issues too.

John Riley