Down Jacket?

Treefrog said:

The mountain equipment Annapurna caught my eye in Gaynors this weekend

Unless you fancy dying of heat exhaustion I'd give this one a miss: it's
for places like the high Himalaya. Something like the Lightline or
Dewline is more the thing for Scotland from ME's lineup IMHO.

Quoted message said:

just how water resistant is that drylite stuff? I've had my fair share of
over exaggerated label claims in the past and don't want to fall victim yet
again.

Fairly, but /any/ downpour will do for a down jacket, even the Goretex
ones. But OTOH if it's raining it's above 0 degrees, so why do you want
a down jacket on at these temperatures?
I use an ME Lightline as a stop jacket ski touring (i.e., I stop, it
goes on to keep me warm, when I start I put it away again) and it's fine
for this at well below zero. If it's above zero then a fleece and a
waterproof are going to be more use.

Quoted message said:

What about Rab? They seem to be market leaders but will they stay dry?

About the same as ME... I'd happily own and use either below zero, I
wouldn't bother with either if it was raining.

Quoted message said:

What do you guys/girls wear?

The old ME Lightline, 'cause I got it cheap in a sale. My gf uses a
Lightline Plus that she bought at about half price from Magic Mountain
last year (ME's factory outlet). ISTM that down jackets frequently get
into sale bins off season. This isn't off-season, of course...

Another option would be something like a Primaloft jacket. These are
still fairly light and though they don't pack as well as down they do
pack quite well (probably better than fleece). However, compressed
packing of synthetic hollow fibre tends to reduce its working life a
lot. Or look at stuff like Buffalo or equivalents from Montane, which
are still fairly toasty even when wet and dry out very fast.

Downies are wonderful things /if/ you need something to keep warm while
not doing anything much (belaying, eating lunch, etc.) below zero.
Above zero I wouldn't bother aside from a camping comforter if you don't
want to spend all your time in a sleeping bag: it's another thing to
carry that's more warmth than you're likely to need and it won't take to
getting wet.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Treefrog
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Hi All,

The government has, for the last few months, been kindly collecting interest
on my weekly cheque and last week decided that they'd had enough and gave me
a tax rebate. Oh Joy, for one week only I'm not completely skint!
I've been dreaming about a down jacket for a few months now as I'm eager to
start some serious ice climbing this winter; the question is, which one?

None of them seem to be totally waterproof and as I'll be using it in
Scotland and (cold weather permitting, the lakes) I'm worried that a sudden
downpoor will leave me in the proverbial paddelless scenario.

Even the plain rip-stop pertex shells will give you enough time to get a
waterproof shell over the top. People seem to think that down turns to a
soggy mess as soon as it sees water but in fact it takes quite a bit to
become a problem.

The two problems you might find are it getting wet in your rucksack
which can be solved with a waterproof stuff sack or getting wet through
sweat if you are too warm when wearing it for a long time.

Quoted message said:

It also needs
to be warm enough for the alps in summer and low level mountains in winter.
Oh, it also needs to be absolutely no more than £200.

The mountain equipment Annapurna caught my eye in Gaynors this weekend, but
just how water resistant is that drylite stuff?

If it is cold enough for an Annapurna it will not be wet! I got an
Annapurna gore-tex nearly 20 years ago and wish I had just got the plain
Annapurna. I have never needed its warmth in the UK. I have used it most
in the north of Russia in winter and occasionally in the Alps (but now I
would use something lighter in the Alps - see below).

The Annpurna is too heavy and bulky for carrying unless you really need
that level of insulation.

I also have an ME Lightline which I bought about 15 years ago and that
gets used in the UK a fair bit. It is much smaller and lighter than the
Annapurna.

http://www.mountain-equipment.co.uk/duvets-and-jackets/index.html

Quoted message said:

I've had my fair share of
over exaggerated label claims in the past and don't want to fall victim yet
again.
What about Rab? They seem to be market leaders but will they stay dry?

Rab's Neutrino
http://www.rab.uk.com/pages/quantum/quantum_products/nj.html

Take a look at the PHD offerings as well:
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/index.php?cPath=27_66
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/index.php?cPath=27_67

I would go for one with a hood (pref detachable). Try to get the best
quality down that you can and look carefully at the weight / pack size.

Once you have narrowed down your preferences find somewhere that stocks
them and try them on to get the one that fits best. Try them with &
without a fleece underneath and take your waterproof shell along to make
sure it goes over the top easily and does not squash the down too much -
or you will loose insulation. Depending upon how bulky a down jacket you
get you may need to get a new, larger shell to fit over the top.

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

Treefrog said:

I've been dreaming about a down jacket for a few months now as I'm
eager to start some serious ice climbing this winter; the question
is, which one?

None of them seem to be totally waterproof

They don't need to be. I'll echo Peter and Dominic's comments, if it's
cold enough for you to need down it's not going to rain.

Many years ago I bought a winter jacket (synthetic not down) with a
gore-tex outer (same paranoid reasons as you). I've hardly ever used
it. On the few occasions I have I've roasted in it, even when walking
at night in February snow. It's been too hot even with no chance of
rain. If there was a chance of rain it would be too hot to wear anyway.
A total waste getting one with a gore-tex shell.

Unless it's really cold, such jackets are too hot too walk in. They're
fine for standing or sitting around in (at camp), in fact once I even
fell asleep in the snow for a few hours before putting up my tent.

The North Face Nupste jacket seems to be a very popular one, on offer
for £130 here. No down hood though. In fact, isn't Palin using a North
Face jacket in the Himalaya series?
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/The-North-Face-Nuptse-Jacket.html

Someone here claims that this is a cheaper version of the same jacket;
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/review/00002084

A down jacket sale here, only £80 for a Marmot down jacket!
http://www.facewest.co.uk/Products%20pages/Clothes/down/down%20sale.htm

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Treefrog said:

I've been dreaming about a down jacket for a few months now as I'm
eager to start some serious ice climbing this winter; the question
is, which one?

None of them seem to be totally waterproof

They don't need to be. I'll echo Peter and Dominic's comments, if it's
cold enough for you to need down it's not going to rain.

Thanks to Peter, Dominic and Paul.
They were very helpful replies... I think I've made my mind up, I'm going to
go for the Lightline.... I did try that on, but it didn't give me the
instant "ahh, bedtime" feeling that the Annapurna did... having said that,
that's probably not the best feeling to be overcome by whilst belaying your
mate!

Plus it means I can spend the £50 I'll save on a helmet.

Thanks again,

Nathan "Wishing winter would get a move on" Whitworth

Treefrog said:

They were very helpful replies... I think I've made my mind up, I'm going to
go for the Lightline.... I did try that on, but it didn't give me the
instant "ahh, bedtime" feeling that the Annapurna did...

That'll be half as much filling. Which you won't have to cart about
with you when you're not wearing it, something which is especially nice
as you get into one of those bloody awkward chimney pitches where
/anything/ you have with you (including a slightly bigger pack) becomes
an impediment to progress.
Not as toasty, but quite toasty /enough/ unless you're one of these folk
that could get cold anywhere.

Quoted message said:

Plus it means I can spend the £50 I'll save on a helmet.

Magic Mountain(the ME factory shop) will have a sale between now and
Christmas. It's usually 20% off anything from ME, so that could well be
worth holding fire if you know ME jackets fit you nicely.
http://www.magic-mountain.co.uk/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Treefrog said:

I've been dreaming about a down jacket for a few months now as I'm
eager to start some serious ice climbing this winter; the question
is, which one?

None of them seem to be totally waterproof

[snip]

Quoted message said:

The North Face Nupste jacket seems to be a very popular one, on offer
for £130 here. No down hood though. In fact, isn't Palin using a North
Face jacket in the Himalaya series?
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/The-North-Face-Nuptse-Jacket.html

Someone here claims that this is a cheaper version of the same jacket;
http://www.trailspace.com/gear/review/00002084

A down jacket sale here, only £80 for a Marmot down jacket!
http://www.facewest.co.uk/Products%20pages/Clothes/down/down%20sale.htm

Sorry to interrupt and change the goal-post a little, but you are (or at
least were!) on the subject...

Do you have any recommendations/suggestions for temperatures 0 to -10C on
average, but known to go to -25... (Norway in Decmber - doing a bit of cross
country skiing) I looked at the links you posted above and the Nuptse
doesn't look as though it would cope? The chances are it will get to see the
Alps next winter as well...

Gareth

Gareth Crawshaw said:

Do you have any recommendations/suggestions for temperatures 0 to
-10C on average, but known to go to -25... (Norway in Decmber - doing
a bit of cross country skiing) I looked at the links you posted above
and the Nuptse doesn't look as though it would cope? The chances are
it will get to see the Alps next winter as well...

Really not an expert on these things, sorry.

Maybe some of the pricier jackets would suit?
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Down-and-Insulated-Jackets.html

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

The North Face Nupste jacket seems to be a very popular one,
on offer for £130 here. No down hood though.

I have a Nuptse which I bought in Canada for some ridiculous sum (I think I
paid 60 CAD for it in the winter sales!!). The lack of a down hood is one
issue (or maybe not - I don't particularly care). Other things that could be
better:

1. It isn't long enough in the back (for me), and has a tendency to ride up.
(Similarly, the arms are a little short on me, but I'm 6'2" with a 3" ape
index, so I tend to expect that).

2. The zip doesn't open from the bottom, which means it's difficult to belay
out from underneath it without hitching up the hem (see 1...).

Otherwise, it's great (and has been used in temps as low as -20C, Gareth!).
Also, my jacket is nearly 3 years old, and these features may have improved.
It was cheap, and it works. I'd buy another if I could find one at the same
price.

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gareth Crawshaw said:

Do you have any recommendations/suggestions for temperatures 0 to
-10C on average, but known to go to -25... (Norway in Decmber - doing
a bit of cross country skiing) I looked at the links you posted above
and the Nuptse doesn't look as though it would cope? The chances are
it will get to see the Alps next winter as well...

Really not an expert on these things, sorry.

Ah well, not to worry... Thanks anyway.

Quoted message said:

Maybe some of the pricier jackets would suit?
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/Down-and-Insulated-Jackets.html

I seem to keep buying new gear recently - Gear-Zone have had their fair
share of my money! Hopefully, this one can double up for some Alpine walking
next year aswell - two birds one stone and all that. I'm off up to the Lakes
this coming weekend, so maybe I'll ask around there. Always a bit dubious
about my local Blacks/Millets staff!

Gareth

Quoted message said:

The North Face Nupste jacket seems to be a very popular one, on offer
for £130 here. No down hood though. In fact, isn't Palin using a North
Face jacket in the Himalaya series?
http://www.gear-zone.co.uk/eshop/The-North-Face-Nuptse-Jacket.html

He probably needed it, it looked cold last night.. I bought mine for
Himalayan use, and it complemented my carefully tended yak dung fires
beautifully. Since it has seen splendid service as a getting up tool
on winter bothy trips. Or a lunchtime warmer on ski tours. Would not
dream of walking in it in Scottish conditions

A lovely luxury!

Richard Webb

Posting after the battle thanks to Google news

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thanks to Peter, Dominic and Paul.

They were very helpful replies... I think I've made my mind up, I'm going to
go for the Lightline.... I did try that on, but it didn't give me the
instant "ahh, bedtime" feeling that the Annapurna did... having said that,
that's probably not the best feeling to be overcome by whilst belaying your
mate!
Plus it means I can spend the £50 I'll save on a helmet.

sorry to wee on the party but if your intention is to start serious
winter climbing, you may want to spend your money on something
different than a down jacket... IME down comes in handy only when you
have to stop for quite a while, so you may want to consider buying one
of those soft shell type garnment like a Buffalo or Montane which you
can use pretty much all the time. I have had a Patagucci Infurno
Jacket for the last 3 years or so and I have hardly used my shell or
my down jacket since. With a thin layer of thermals underneath, it's
warm enough to sit on a belay ledge for a reasonably long time and
it's water resistant enough for the dampness you would expect on a
winter day.
After all when you're climbing, you're often on the move and warm so a
down jacket will be too hot. The only case is at the belay, but then I
can never be arsed to put my down on and rather be a bit chilly and
gain a bit of time.

My 2 p

Quoted message said:

Thanks again,

Nathan "Wishing winter would get a move on" Whitworth

After 7 years in this country I've learned not to hold my breath. If
you want winter (and ice ice beautiful blue ice) go to the alps.

A.-

Arnaud said:

After all when you're climbing, you're often on the move and warm so a
down jacket will be too hot. The only case is at the belay, but then I
can never be arsed to put my down on and rather be a bit chilly and
gain a bit of time.

I'm usually of a similar persuasion, and most of the winter climbing I'm
likely to be doing is soloing easy stuff anyway, but if things /are/
going slowly and you rather expect you'll be sat doing nowt much for the
best part of an hour, saving two minutes might be a false economy!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What do you guys/girls wear?

Quoted message said:

The old ME Lightline, 'cause I got it cheap in a sale. My gf uses a
Lightline Plus that she bought at about half price from Magic Mountain last
year (ME's factory outlet). ISTM that down jackets frequently get into
sale bins off season. This isn't off-season, of course...

I have a Lightline too. It's served me well for about six years. I picked
it up for £50 in a sale.

Things might be different now, but when I was looking for a down jacket, I
was told that Rab use a different type of sewing needle that reduces the
amount of down that is lost.

Cheers

Blippie
--
Ten minutes of this rain will do more good in half an hour than a fortnight
of ordinary rain in a month.

Blippie said:

Things might be different now, but when I was looking for a down jacket, I
was told that Rab use a different type of sewing needle that reduces the
amount of down that is lost.

I've heard this too, no idea if it's true but since the down loss from
my ME sleeping bags and jacket is negligible in any case (mainly
feathers coming through stalk first, but since feathers are only in
there because they're too awkward to separate completely by machine it
doesn't actually make much difference), I wouldn't particularly worry.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Treefrog said:

I've been dreaming about a down jacket for a few months now as I'm
eager to start some serious ice climbing this winter; the question
is, which one?

None of them seem to be totally waterproof

They don't need to be. I'll echo Peter and Dominic's comments, if it's
cold enough for you to need down it's not going to rain.

Thanks to Peter, Dominic and Paul.
They were very helpful replies... I think I've made my mind up, I'm going

to

Quoted message said:

go for the Lightline.... I did try that on, but it didn't give me the
instant "ahh, bedtime" feeling that the Annapurna did... having said that,
that's probably not the best feeling to be overcome by whilst belaying

your

Quoted message said:

mate!

Plus it means I can spend the £50 I'll save on a helmet.

Thanks again,

Nathan "Wishing winter would get a move on" Whitworth

I got it!
Went to Ambleside on my day off yesterday and picked the lightline up from
Gaynors -£135. I got back to work today only to read an email from Magic
Mountain saying they had um for £105. Grrr!

The salesman in Gaynors was REALLY trying to push the Annapurna, I got told
the lightline isn't actually windproof because of the stitching. Funny,
because when I road to work this morning, I must of been nudging 20mph and
didn't feel anything coming through and I only had a t-shirt underneath.
Anyway, I'm very pleased with it so far, I just can't wait to test it
properly.

Cheers,

Nathan

Treefrog said:

The salesman in Gaynors was REALLY trying to push the Annapurna, I got told
the lightline isn't actually windproof because of the stitching.

The salesman really needs to get out more, in that case, since it
appears he Doesn't Have A Clue...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Blippie' alt.aviation.roswell.wannabe.wannabe.wannabe said:

Quoted message said:

The old ME Lightline, 'cause I got it cheap in a sale. My gf uses a
Lightline Plus that she bought at about half price from Magic Mountain
last

Quoted message said:

I have a Lightline too. It's served me well for about six years. I
picked it up for £50 in a sale.

Thats good to know, I've got a nice new one I just bought. (Same deal,
Magic Mountain, about 50 quid.)

Sean
x

Peter Clinch said:

Treefrog wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The salesman in Gaynors was REALLY trying to push the Annapurna, I got told
the lightline isn't actually windproof because of the stitching.

Quoted message said:

The salesman really needs to get out more, in that case, since it
appears he Doesn't Have A Clue...

Mine got its first outing of the season a fortnight ago during a
'butty stop' on Beinn Dearg (Torridon). Despite the stiff wind it felt
plenty windproof to me.....

Al
--
[This space intentionally left blank]

Don't bother with a duvet in my opinion.

Fleece layers and a good waterproof/windproof are far more versatile. Just
my opinion

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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