Injuries

"Geoff Berrow" wrote

Quoted message said:

Peewiglets AT got me thinking. Clearly with something like this
prevention is better than cure. Since there is zero chance of me doing
any running I'm not likely to suffer a similar injury but is there
anything to watch out for in ordinary walking? Any tips for a newbie?

Don't go [censored] over [censored] on wet leaves for one! :-)

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Bob
Hobden contained the following:

Quoted message said:

Don't go [censored] over [censored] on wet leaves for one! :-)

Too late...

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 17:44:45 +0100, Geoff Berrow <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Peewiglets AT got me thinking. Clearly with something like this
prevention is better than cure. Since there is zero chance of me doing
any running I'm not likely to suffer a similar injury but is there
anything to watch out for in ordinary walking? Any tips for a newbie?

It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

Make sure you have well fitting boots too, and lots of people would
advise you to invest in a pair of good walking poles. I can't advise
you on that since I've never been able to use them, but there seems to
be a lot of evidence that, used properly, they'll help to protect your
knees, particularly on steep downhills.

Also, and since you say you're a newbie, don't be tempted to do too
much too quickly: I think that's how I hurt my ATs in the first place
(speedtraining overkill on a treadmill set to "hilly"...). Work up to
things gradually, and give your body a chance to acclimatise to
strange new loads and stresses.

Most of all, though, have fun out there :-)

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

Geoff Berrow <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Peewiglets AT got me thinking. Clearly with something like this
prevention is better than cure. Since there is zero chance of me doing
any running I'm not likely to suffer a similar injury but is there
anything to watch out for in ordinary walking? Any tips for a newbie?

Good thinking ! Have a read about gait analysis, Superfeet/Sorbothane. Learn to
read soles.....

Daytona

Peewiglet <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

Sods law says you'll twist you ankle when you least expect it ! I've twisted my
ankle several times (and then got plantar fasciitis because of lack of activity
whilst waiting for it to heal) on tree roots & uneven ground but never on rough
terrain, when I'm taking care. It feels stupid to watch the ground so much when
there's nice scenery to look at. Perhaps I should just buy some mountain boots
and wear them everywhere <g>

Daytona

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet contained the following:

Quoted message said:

It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

I tend to be quite paranoid about that when walking alone.

Quoted message said:

Make sure you have well fitting boots too, and lots of people would
advise you to invest in a pair of good walking poles. I can't advise
you on that since I've never been able to use them, but there seems to
be a lot of evidence that, used properly, they'll help to protect your
knees, particularly on steep downhills.

I think my boots are ok and they are much more comfortable now I'm
lacing them by the method posted here not long ago. As for poles, since
I'm often having to put Magic on a lead I think they would be a bit of a
nuisance but I could have done with them today...

Quoted message said:

Also, and since you say you're a newbie, don't be tempted to do too
much too quickly: I think that's how I hurt my ATs in the first place
(speedtraining overkill on a treadmill set to "hilly"...). Work up to
things gradually, and give your body a chance to acclimatise to
strange new loads and stresses.

I think I've been quite sensible. My main aims in walking are to get
out with my dog and to get some much needed exercise. I've gone from a
gentle stroll round the park to the point where I can do a medium 5-8
mile walk without too much difficulty. I've a way to go before I could
do what you did, even if I could spare the time to do it (should have
done it while I was getting a six week holiday :-( - college lecturers
get a lot less), but I'm starting to think that the Staffordshire way
may be do-able.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

In Article <[email hidden]>,Daytona

Quoted message said:

then got plantar fasciitis because of lack of activity
whilst waiting for it to heal

Daytona

Interesting, any tips on recovering from and subsequently avoiding this
condition? Just had an unpleasant cortisone injection this morning, which I
hope will be the end of it for now, but don't really know how it developed
in the first place, certainly not through lack of activity in my case.

Regards.
Richard G.

Richard G. said:

Interesting, any tips on recovering from and subsequently avoiding
this condition? Just had an unpleasant cortisone injection this
morning, which I hope will be the end of it for now,

Don't know if it's anything like my shoulder injury some time back, but
they did stress to me that I should exercise it after the cortisone
injection. Did they tell you the same thing? It's a bodybuilding
thing, you really should make a point of exercising it as much as you
can for a few days after the injection, within reason of course. Helps
it to grow stronger.

If it's to do with an ankle injury I'd recommend walking poles. I can't
remember if I bought my pair after I sprained my ankle or not, but they
were a massive help afterwards when walking across uneven terrain -
whenever I stepped awkwardly the poles took the lateral strain instead
of the ankle.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Geoff Berrow said:

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet contained the following:

Quoted message said:

It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

I tend to be quite paranoid about that when walking alone.

Having just read some excerpts from a book by that climber who had to cut
his hand and wrist off to escape from a boulder after 5 days of being pinned
under it, I think perhaps some sense of proportion is needed ;-)

Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
ankle.

--
Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it.

Mail john rather than nospam...

John Laird said:

Having just read some excerpts from a book by that climber who had to
cut his hand and wrist off to escape from a boulder after 5 days of
being pinned under it, I think perhaps some sense of proportion is
needed ;-)

I tend to agree. When I sprained my ankle on Kinder I managed to hobble
off quite successfully with the aid of a walking stick. It took a while
but luckily it was a nice day, and I continued taking photos enroute.

How bad would an injury have to be to render you totally incapable of
getting of the hill if you had no other option? Broken leg? Surely you
could strap it up to a walking pole and drag yourself off the hill if
you really had to?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Geoff Berrow said:

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet contained the following:

Quoted message said:

It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

I tend to be quite paranoid about that when walking alone.

Having just read some excerpts from a book by that climber who had to cut
his hand and wrist off to escape from a boulder after 5 days of being pinned
under it, I think perhaps some sense of proportion is needed ;-)

Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
ankle.

And that restriction stops the stress on the ankles which helps them get
stronger. It may even lead to a weakening of initially strong ankle
joints if the boots are worn a lot.

As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
joints and muscles working again.

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

In Article <[email hidden]>,"Paul Saunders"

Quoted message said:

Don't know if it's anything like my shoulder injury some time back, but
they did stress to me that I should exercise it after the cortisone
injection. Did they tell you the same thing?

Conflicting advice really. One doctor suggested the pain would worsen as a
result of the injection and recommended a couple of days rest, whilst the
other suggested walking on it to help distribute the cortisone around the
affected area.

Quoted message said:

It's a bodybuilding
thing, you really should make a point of exercising it as much as you
can for a few days after the injection, within reason of course. Helps
it to grow stronger.

Little choice really, doing a lot of training at the moment, which I believe
to have been the cause.

Quoted message said:

If it's to do with an ankle injury I'd recommend walking poles. I can't
remember if I bought my pair after I sprained my ankle or not, but they
were a massive help afterwards when walking across uneven terrain -
whenever I stepped awkwardly the poles took the lateral strain instead
of the ankle.

The Plantar Faciitis is a heel pad problem really, although I do have a weak
right ankle too. Tend to only use poles if I'm on an extended walk to avoid
tiring out too soon, but avoiding them at the moment and forcing my legs to
do all the work.

Regards,
Richard G.

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
ankle.

And that restriction stops the stress on the ankles which helps them get
stronger. It may even lead to a weakening of initially strong ankle
joints if the boots are worn a lot.

Excuse me a minute while I just warm up the flame-gun...

You're not entirely serious, are you ? I don't tighten up my boots to a
ludicrous degree (and they tend to loosen off a touch anyway after 10
minutes), but the restriction I notice is only outside the range of normal
walking. It's appallingly uncomfortable to try and walk in boots which are
over-tight (try it in ski-boots or ice-skating boots if you don't believe
me). If you agree with this, then you seem to be suggesting that you can
strengthen a joint only by regularly flexing it outside the range of normal
movement. "Oh, I don't get sprains because every few hundred yards I
deliberately fall over to teach the joint a lesson" ?

In simple terms, I don't wear my boots so tight that I *feel* restricted,
but when I place a foot awkwardly and my ankle goes over beyond a certain
degree, *then* I feel the ankle being supported (or rather prevented from
bending further). Sometimes this means I actually fall over, but without
damaging my ankle (just my pride). To me, this is a sensible use of boots.

Quoted message said:

As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
joints and muscles working again.

I think this is apples and oranges, personally.

--
Suicide Hotline... Please hold for the next available operator...

Mail john rather than nospam...

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
ankle.

And that restriction stops the stress on the ankles which helps them get
stronger. It may even lead to a weakening of initially strong ankle
joints if the boots are worn a lot.

Excuse me a minute while I just warm up the flame-gun...

Nice n toasty please ;-)

Quoted message said:

You're not entirely serious, are you ?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

I don't tighten up my boots to a
ludicrous degree (and they tend to loosen off a touch anyway after 10
minutes), but the restriction I notice is only outside the range of normal
walking.

How do you get fitter / stronger:- Is it (a) by increasing the exercise
duration / difficulty or (b) by staying the same or (c) reducing the
exercise?

What you call normal walking is staying the same. The ankle is not
getting any extra stress so it not developing extra strength /
resilience to cope with the extra stress.

Quoted message said:

It's appallingly uncomfortable to try and walk in boots which are
over-tight (try it in ski-boots or ice-skating boots if you don't believe
me). If you agree with this

I do.

Quoted message said:

, then you seem to be suggesting that you can
strengthen a joint only by regularly flexing it outside the range of normal
movement.

What is normal movement? Walking down the road to the shops / pub /
chippy does not even coming close to exercising the normal range of
movement but it is about as much as many people do.

Our ankles are designed to have a wide range of movement - very much
wider than many people think. Wearing supportive boots reduces the range
of movement that can be achieved by a supple and strong ankle without
injury.

Exercising the full range of movement does help maintain joint
flexibility and strength. Like all exercise building up slowly and
steadily gibes good results but overdoing it is counterproductive and
can lead to injury.

Quoted message said:

"Oh, I don't get sprains because every few hundred yards I
deliberately fall over to teach the joint a lesson" ?

OK that is an illustration of overdoing it. I am not saying your ankles
will be more durable if you repeatedly strike them with an axe.

Quoted message said:

In simple terms, I don't wear my boots so tight that I *feel* restricted,

You may not feel restricted but were you to try and flex your ankles to
their full range of movement you would probably find that they cannot
move as much in the boots unless they are extremely loose.

Quoted message said:

but when I place a foot awkwardly and my ankle goes over beyond a certain
degree, *then* I feel the ankle being supported (or rather prevented from
bending further). Sometimes this means I actually fall over, but without
damaging my ankle (just my pride). To me, this is a sensible use of boots.

I still use boots sometimes but am glad that I do a fair bit of running
(mostly off road) and use Tevas / fell shoes much of the time. That
keeps my ankles in good nick.

I started running regularly about 6 years ago. In recent years I have
had small ankle twists (mostly running on uneven ground) which
previously probably would have been very uncomfortable but due to the
condition of my ankles they rarely suffer for more than a few strides.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
joints and muscles working again.

I think this is apples and oranges, personally.

Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:41:53 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> uttered:

Quoted message said:

Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

Bloody council putting roads, pavements and making most paths with a
good finish. Looks like we have to stop developing and stagnate...

--
Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

In article <[email hidden]>, Dewi
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:41:53 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> uttered:

Quoted message said:

Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

Bloody council putting roads, pavements and making most paths with a
good finish.

Aye, the b*ggers.

Quoted message said:

Looks like we have to stop developing and stagnate...

Or seek out ruff-stuff and play ;-)

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes
>
>Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
>ankle.
>
And that restriction stops the stress on the ankles which helps them get
stronger. It may even lead to a weakening of initially strong ankle
joints if the boots are worn a lot.

Excuse me a minute while I just warm up the flame-gun...

Nice n toasty please ;-)

Sitting comfortably ? <g>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're not entirely serious, are you ?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

I don't tighten up my boots to a
ludicrous degree (and they tend to loosen off a touch anyway after 10
minutes), but the restriction I notice is only outside the range of normal
walking.

How do you get fitter / stronger:- Is it (a) by increasing the exercise
duration / difficulty or (b) by staying the same or (c) reducing the
exercise?

What you call normal walking is staying the same. The ankle is not
getting any extra stress so it not developing extra strength /
resilience to cope with the extra stress.

No, not so. I meant "normal walking" as "normal out in the hills on unpaved
paths walking". This is already considerably more arduous than walking
about on the flat on smooth surfaces. Add in the noticeable extra weight of
typical walking boots and you already have a fair amount of extra stress to
strengthen all joints and muscles. I don't think the bounds placed on
movement by boots negate this extra, valuable, exercise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's appallingly uncomfortable to try and walk in boots which are
over-tight (try it in ski-boots or ice-skating boots if you don't believe
me). If you agree with this

I do.

Quoted message said:

, then you seem to be suggesting that you can
strengthen a joint only by regularly flexing it outside the range of normal
movement.

What is normal movement? Walking down the road to the shops / pub /
chippy does not even coming close to exercising the normal range of
movement but it is about as much as many people do.

Our ankles are designed to have a wide range of movement - very much
wider than many people think. Wearing supportive boots reduces the range
of movement that can be achieved by a supple and strong ankle without
injury.

I still don't think twisting your foot through 90 degrees counts as
desirable let alone achievable. Even wild animals get lame.

Quoted message said:

Exercising the full range of movement does help maintain joint
flexibility and strength. Like all exercise building up slowly and
steadily gibes good results but overdoing it is counterproductive and
can lead to injury.

Quoted message said:

"Oh, I don't get sprains because every few hundred yards I
deliberately fall over to teach the joint a lesson" ?

OK that is an illustration of overdoing it. I am not saying your ankles
will be more durable if you repeatedly strike them with an axe.

No but you seem to be suggesting that if boots prevent rotation of more than
X degrees say, and sprains set in at Y, then regular flexing though some
value between X and Y is a good thing, when X itself is possibly already
very much more than the typical ankle sees.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In simple terms, I don't wear my boots so tight that I *feel* restricted,

You may not feel restricted but were you to try and flex your ankles to
their full range of movement you would probably find that they cannot
move as much in the boots unless they are extremely loose.

That's fine by me ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but when I place a foot awkwardly and my ankle goes over beyond a certain
degree, *then* I feel the ankle being supported (or rather prevented from
bending further). Sometimes this means I actually fall over, but without
damaging my ankle (just my pride). To me, this is a sensible use of boots.

I still use boots sometimes but am glad that I do a fair bit of running
(mostly off road) and use Tevas / fell shoes much of the time. That
keeps my ankles in good nick.

Ah, light dawns. You're a bleeding *runner*. Begone and take your sweaty
form with you ;-)

Quoted message said:

I started running regularly about 6 years ago. In recent years I have
had small ankle twists (mostly running on uneven ground) which
previously probably would have been very uncomfortable but due to the
condition of my ankles they rarely suffer for more than a few strides.

I haven't sprained an ankle out walking for as long as I can remember. But
there are occasions when I have put my foot down awkwardly and felt I would
surely have done some damage had my boots not prevented further movement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
joints and muscles working again.

I think this is apples and oranges, personally.

Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

But they are already hugely cossetted by modern living. I would rather
adopt a halfway house in terms of wearing decent boots when out walking than
take some hair-shirt approach and decide nature knows best even if it means
I have to drag myself 6 miles back to the car on my hands and one knee. I
also don't walk faster and faster until my heart is literally hammering or
go out for a day with no food at all because I have ample pounds of fat
reserve to live on.

YMMV !

--
After all is said and done, more is said than done.

Mail john rather than nospam...

Richard G. said:

Quoted message said:

Don't know if it's anything like my shoulder injury some time back,
but they did stress to me that I should exercise it after the
cortisone injection. Did they tell you the same thing?

Conflicting advice really. One doctor suggested the pain would worsen
as a result of the injection and recommended a couple of days rest,
whilst the other suggested walking on it to help distribute the
cortisone around the affected area.

I think I was told to rest for a day or two, but then to exercise a lot.
I think the trick is to keep moving it

Quoted message said:

The Plantar Faciitis is a heel pad problem really, although I do have
a weak right ankle too. Tend to only use poles if I'm on an extended
walk to avoid tiring out too soon, but avoiding them at the moment
and forcing my legs to do all the work.

Might be okay if you're walking on even ground but I really would
recommend poles for walking on uneven ground.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

"Dominic Sexton" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I still use boots sometimes but am glad that I do a fair bit of running
(mostly off road) and use Tevas / fell shoes much of the time. That
keeps my ankles in good nick.

I've done a bit of running in boots for one reason or another (mostly when
my girlfriend's waiting to pick me up at the end of a walk somewhere). I've
formed the impression that I'm more likely to turn an ankle over in boots
than I am in trainers. Never done myself any damage doing it though
whatever footwear I'm wearing. (Not sure what that adds to the discussion).