Injuries

"Richard G." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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In Article <[email hidden]>,Daytona

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then got plantar fasciitis because of lack of activity
whilst waiting for it to heal

Daytona

Interesting, any tips on recovering from and subsequently avoiding this
condition? Just had an unpleasant cortisone injection this morning, which

I

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hope will be the end of it for now, but don't really know how it developed
in the first place, certainly not through lack of activity in my case.

Regards.
Richard G.

My commiserations. PF is not much fun. Your comment about your PF not being
caused by inactivity rings true. PF is said to be a common condition amongst
athletes.

If you have not already seen it, you might care to look at
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/1014-plantar-fasciitis.htm. A
more discursive source can be found at http://heelspurs.com/index.html.

I hope there is a good recovery. There are anecdotal comments that judicious
activity is desirable, to minimise scar tissue.

--
Alan Law

Richard G. <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Interesting, any tips on recovering from and subsequently avoiding this
condition? Just had an unpleasant cortisone injection this morning, which I
hope will be the end of it for now, but don't really know how it developed
in the first place, certainly not through lack of activity in my case.

Stretching enabled a noticeable day on day recovery -

Morning towel stretch - http://heelspurs.com/_intro2.html#str & gastroc stretch
- http://www.brooksrunning.com/on_the_run/plantar.htm
Then stretching it whilst sat at my desk
I required no heat, ice, taping or the websites recommended products so the
above were quick & easy to do.

It may well have been caused by the tightening of the calf muscles when I was
getting up to speed after the sprain i.e. I overdid it. The doctor said that I
have flattening feet but the muscles were doing a good job in taking over from
the PF and preserving the arch. He said that as the feet flattened the PF would
extend and the resulting heel spur was the natural result. As there was no
preventing this, he recommended against arch support insoles, instead
recommending different kinds of activity to strengthen the foot. This seems at
odds to most of the advice on the websites - but it's always interesting to hear
different opinions, and, more importantly the basis upon which the opinions are
formed.

I'm as fully recovered now as I expect to be - I only get occasional twinges on
the heel and arch. I still do the stretches most days as it seems like a good
thing to do. Although I wear my boots evenly, I used Superfeet insoles (high
support) to correct any gait problems. I had a few twinges in my legs & knees as
they 'reset' my gait so I assume they did something. I now swap regularly
between these and the standard insoles (low support) to strengthen the foot.

Daytona

In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

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No, not so. I meant "normal walking" as "normal out in the hills on unpaved
paths walking".

OK, that's a good.

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This is already considerably more arduous than walking
about on the flat on smooth surfaces. Add in the noticeable extra weight of
typical walking boots and you already have a fair amount of extra stress to
strengthen all joints and muscles. I don't think the bounds placed on
movement by boots negate this extra, valuable, exercise.

I think it is a lot better than ambling down the road but I still think
you could do yourself more good by letting your ankles do their job.

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What is normal movement? Walking down the road to the shops / pub /
chippy does not even coming close to exercising the normal range of
movement but it is about as much as many people do.

Our ankles are designed to have a wide range of movement - very much
wider than many people think. Wearing supportive boots reduces the range
of movement that can be achieved by a supple and strong ankle without
injury.

I still don't think twisting your foot through 90 degrees counts as
desirable let alone achievable.

And it is not what we are discussing.

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Even wild animals get lame.

They sure do and often die from it by starvation or by becoming a snack.

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Exercising the full range of movement does help maintain joint
flexibility and strength. Like all exercise building up slowly and
steadily gibes good results but overdoing it is counterproductive and
can lead to injury.

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"Oh, I don't get sprains because every few hundred yards I
deliberately fall over to teach the joint a lesson" ?

OK that is an illustration of overdoing it. I am not saying your ankles
will be more durable if you repeatedly strike them with an axe.

No but you seem to be suggesting that if boots prevent rotation of more than
X degrees say, and sprains set in at Y, then regular flexing though some
value between X and Y is a good thing, when X itself is possibly already
very much more than the typical ankle sees.

But X and Y are not fixed for the average human. Most people can change
the flexibility and the limit of damage considerably.

Following a break one of my ankles will not flex properly in one
direction (lifting toes up) because the bone is no longer the right
shape in the joint. The joint works quite well laterally and pointing
down but the lack of movement is really rather irritating and make me
appreciate my normal ankle's ability all the more.

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I still use boots sometimes but am glad that I do a fair bit of running
(mostly off road) and use Tevas / fell shoes much of the time. That
keeps my ankles in good nick.

Ah, light dawns. You're a bleeding *runner*. Begone and take your sweaty
form with you ;-)

I enjoy lots of outdoor activities, sometimes with other sweaty forms
;-)

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I started running regularly about 6 years ago. In recent years I have
had small ankle twists (mostly running on uneven ground) which
previously probably would have been very uncomfortable but due to the
condition of my ankles they rarely suffer for more than a few strides.

I haven't sprained an ankle out walking for as long as I can remember. But
there are occasions when I have put my foot down awkwardly and felt I would
surely have done some damage had my boots not prevented further movement.

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>As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
>joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
>several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
>that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
>joints and muscles working again.

I think this is apples and oranges, personally.

Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

But they are already hugely cossetted by modern living.

Which is why a lot of us enjoy getting out doing stuff in the great
outdoors. We are not as comfortable as the couch n sky+ with a few tins
brigade but we get a lot out for the effort we put in.

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I would rather
adopt a halfway house in terms of wearing decent boots when out walking
than
take some hair-shirt approach

Interestingly I would expect a hair shirt would be rather uncomfortable
- bit like wearing boots when sandals would be more appropriate.

On a recent 2 jaunt day in the lakes I wore sandals for the first jaunt
and boots for the second. My main reason for choosing boots for the
afternoon was because one of my sandal straps had rubbed my foot a bit
where I had tightened it for some scrambling and didn't loosen it off
afterwards. There was more scrambling in the afternoon up a route I
didn't know so I thought a change of footwear was in order. I nearly
went for fell shoes but knew quite a bit of the trip was rocky and they
have very little cushioning so boots it was.

In some respects the boots were more appropriate for the afternoon
because of a loose rocky path and I didn't have to think as much about
where I put my feet when descending. I can understand people wanting the
advantages of boots all the time but people do not seem to realise it is
a double edged sword.

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and decide nature knows best

I have not advocated the completely natural barefoot approach as I
prefer a halfway house of sandals - a good sole, similar to boots,
without the support, weight and sweat that goes with the boots.

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even if it means
I have to drag myself 6 miles back to the car on my hands and one knee.

I don't know of anybody who has tried that.

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I
also don't walk faster and faster until my heart is literally hammering

Of course you don't because that would be overdoing it.

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or
go out for a day with no food at all because I have ample pounds of fat
reserve to live on.

Other than the loss of lard being a good thing there is not much to gain
by the no food approach. Lack of full will mean you cannot make the most
of your training session / jaunt.

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YMMV !

It does, some weeks I do loads and others not so much. ;-)

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

Dewi said:

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:41:53 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> uttered:

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Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

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Bloody council putting roads, pavements and making most paths with a
good finish. Looks like we have to stop developing and stagnate...

My last house could be approached either by walking up the slight hill
on the pavement, or walking along the flat and then going up a very
steep grassy wooded slope. In the interests of maintaining the Fabled
Ankle Strength (FAS) which allows me to prance around in wild country
with "unsuitable" footwear with never even a strained ankle, I usually
chose the latter route, doing various exercises like walking up flat
footed, walking up sideways on the edges of my feet, etc..

Since attaining adult size some forty odd years ago, I've only ever
strained my ankle once, and that was when I pretended to have been
shot by a pointed finger and did a too realistic fall down the
stairs. I turned the ankle over and fell on top of it. I had a friend
with whom I practised assassin awareness. Whenever one saw the other,
he pointed a finger and shouted "Bang!", whereupon the other had to
fall down dead. He got me on a big staircase, from which I had to be
carried to hospital.

But even then the FAS was very useful. The docs diagnosed a frightful
strain, which they gave a number to, I forget, let's call it five, and
bound it up with very tight bandages. I took the bandages off, of
course, reasoning that was what you had to wear if you had civilised
weak ankles. It hurt so much I couldn't sleep properly for a few
nights without copious anaesthetic alcohol. It turned piebald with
fantastic yellows and purples from internal bleeding.

Ten days later I turned up for inspection. I put the bandages back on,
because they had been very insistent about the importance of the
bandages, and I didn't want to upset them.

They told me I'd recovered very well from a type three sprain.

"It was a five."

"Nonense! If it had been a five you would have struggled in here with
a stick!

"But it *was* a five!"

"It couldn't possibly have been! I can tell just by looking at it. A
five takes *far* longer to recover to this extent, possibly months."

"It *was* a five! Look in the notes!"

"Gosh, you're right! That's amazing!"

(The assassin awareness training worked well too, I've never even been
assassinated once.)

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

John Laird said:

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 14:41:53 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> wrote:

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In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
<[email hidden]> writes

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On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:02:58 +0100, Dominic Sexton
<[email hidden]> wrote:

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>In article <[email hidden]>, John Laird
><[email hidden]> writes

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>>Good boots help a lot by restricting the amount of free movement at the
>>ankle.

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>And that restriction stops the stress on the ankles which helps them get
>stronger. It may even lead to a weakening of initially strong ankle
>joints if the boots are worn a lot.

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You're not entirely serious, are you ?

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What you call normal walking is staying the same. The ankle is not
getting any extra stress so it not developing extra strength /
resilience to cope with the extra stress.

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No, not so. I meant "normal walking" as "normal out in the hills on unpaved
paths walking". This is already considerably more arduous than walking
about on the flat on smooth surfaces. Add in the noticeable extra weight of
typical walking boots and you already have a fair amount of extra stress to
strengthen all joints and muscles. I don't think the bounds placed on
movement by boots negate this extra, valuable, exercise.

Disagree strongly. I accidentally developed Fabled Ankle Strength
partly by spending childhood scambling in old quarries in gym shoes,
partly by ice skating in second-hand boots which had lost all their
ankle support. Once I discovered its virtues, I've kept it up by
carefully avoiding ankle support and taking opportunities to exercise
them and keep them flexible. And I've never ever strained an ankle out
of doors, which I attribute to the Fabled Ankle Strength.

When I do wear boots for foot protectection, I get the lowest ankles I
can find, beat the ankles down with a hammer to reduce the strength,
and leave the top lacings undone.

Ankle protection it the same [censored]-backwards idea as those folk who
drive around in a Volvo and keep having accidents which justifies
driving around in a Volvo.

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, then you seem to be suggesting that you can
strengthen a joint only by regularly flexing it outside the range of normal
movement.

If normal movement means the average Joe's range of average movement,
damn right!

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What is normal movement? Walking down the road to the shops / pub /
chippy does not even coming close to exercising the normal range of
movement but it is about as much as many people do.

Our ankles are designed to have a wide range of movement - very much
wider than many people think. Wearing supportive boots reduces the range
of movement that can be achieved by a supple and strong ankle without
injury.

Exactly.

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Quoted message said:

Exercising the full range of movement does help maintain joint
flexibility and strength. Like all exercise building up slowly and
steadily gibes good results but overdoing it is counterproductive and
can lead to injury.

In fact tendons and ligaments build up so very much more slowly than
muscles that it takes years to strengthen an ankle, or recover full
strength in a damaged ankle.

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"Oh, I don't get sprains because every few hundred yards I
deliberately fall over to teach the joint a lesson" ?

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OK that is an illustration of overdoing it. I am not saying your ankles
will be more durable if you repeatedly strike them with an axe.

Quoted message said:

No but you seem to be suggesting that if boots prevent rotation of more than
X degrees say, and sprains set in at Y, then regular flexing though some
value between X and Y is a good thing, when X itself is possibly already
very much more than the typical ankle sees.

Definitely agreed. In fact I deliberately take opportunities to put my
ankles through through extreme flex while being fully loaded, in order
to keep up the Fabled Ankle Strength which renders ankle protection
not only unnecessary but an annoying restriction on proper locomotion.

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but when I place a foot awkwardly and my ankle goes over beyond a certain
degree, *then* I feel the ankle being supported (or rather prevented from
bending further). Sometimes this means I actually fall over, but without
damaging my ankle (just my pride). To me, this is a sensible use of boots.

Most folk who do little rough walking are scared of falling over. When
they start to lose balance they try to stay upright. It sometimes
works, but sometimes they end up falling over with a damaging wallop,
breaking an arm, or end up trying to stand on a weak and half-turned
ankle which hasn't the strength to take it. The other secret to not
turning an ankle is to stop trying so hard not to fall, but to give up
earlier and collapse deliberately and gracefully with no damaging
impacts.

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I still use boots sometimes but am glad that I do a fair bit of running
(mostly off road) and use Tevas / fell shoes much of the time. That
keeps my ankles in good nick.

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Ah, light dawns. You're a bleeding *runner*. Begone and take your sweaty
form with you ;-)

I'm not a runner, never have been, asthma stopped me developing the
needed lungs and heart. But I still have strong enough ankles to
render ankle protection a useless nuisance.

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>As an extreme example look at the problems people have with getting
>joints mobile and strong again after they have been in plaster for
>several weeks. That is fine for the average Joe but active people find
>that the bones have healed but then they spend a long time getting the
>joints and muscles working again.

Exactly. That's why I've always started hammering my plasters into
increasing stages of flexibility as soon as the pain went, ending up
by taking them off well in advance of the usual time. With the result
that I heal from broken bones much more quickly with much better
recovery of movement than most people. In fact last time I broke a
wrist and some hand bones the doc said he'd never seen such a complete
recovery, and would have supposed it impossible if he hadn't seen me,
and my X-rays, in front of him.

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I think this is apples and oranges, personally.

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Not really. Our bodies have had many tens of thousands of years to adapt
to the conditions we operate in. Cosseting them is counterproductive in
terms of improving / maintaining their ability to cope.

Quoted message said:

But they are already hugely cossetted by modern living. I would rather
adopt a halfway house in terms of wearing decent boots when out walking than
take some hair-shirt approach and decide nature knows best even if it means
I have to drag myself 6 miles back to the car on my hands and one knee.

You're right in that if you've never developed the natural ruggedness
of the human ankle, then it might take years of graduated exercise to
acquire it. You can't throw away your high heels and corsets
immediately.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

On Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:24:47 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

Disagree strongly.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then.

--
No sense being pessimistic. It wouldn't work anyway.

Mail john rather than nospam...

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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// snipped //

I accidentally developed Fabled Ankle Strength
partly by spending childhood scambling in old quarries in gym shoes,
partly by ice skating in second-hand boots which had lost all their
ankle support. Once I discovered its virtues, I've kept it up by
carefully avoiding ankle support and taking opportunities to exercise
them and keep them flexible

Yes, I agree. "Fabled Ankle Strength" is very useful, and the only way to
achieve it is to have suitable forms of exercise. Fell-running is an
excellent way of strengthening ankles, and it also improves reflexes.

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// snipped again//

Most folk who do little rough walking are scared of falling over. When
they start to lose balance they try to stay upright. It sometimes
works, but sometimes they end up falling over with a damaging wallop,
breaking an arm, or end up trying to stand on a weak and half-turned
ankle which hasn't the strength to take it. The other secret to not
turning an ankle is to stop trying so hard not to fall, but to give up
earlier and collapse deliberately and gracefully with no damaging
impacts.

And I agree with the comment about falling over. Falling gracefully is a
useful skill. If you want to learn how to fall, then any form of skiing
provides excellent opportunities.

Walkers stand to benefit considerably from participation in activities like
running and skiing.

--
Alan Law

Guys,

Some great info there, thanks.
I had, in my ignorance assumed that the magic jab would make all my problems
disappear. There's been a definite improvement, but it's still quite sore.

I know trying to short cut a way back to full fitness is not desirable, but
have only a couple of weeks now to try and improve my condition as much as
possible before a trekking trip, so the timing is clearly not ideal.

Given this situation, can you suggest which exercises you have found to have
the most immediate and dramatic effects for yourselves?

Many thanks,
Richard G.

Richard G. said:

Given this situation, can you suggest which exercises you have found
to have the most immediate and dramatic effects for yourselves?

Probably not relevant or much use to you, but with my shoulder injury I
found that resting it was most helpful, and then only lifting light
weights. Trying to exercise it regularly made it worse. Some injuries
just need time.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In Article <[email hidden]>,"Paul Saunders"

Quoted message said:

Probably not relevant or much use to you, but with my shoulder injury I
found that resting it was most helpful, and then only lifting light
weights. Trying to exercise it regularly made it worse. Some injuries
just need time.

I'm sure that's good advice and given the opportunity that would be part of
my approach, but isn't really an option for the next month or so. I have
been trying to maintain and increase my fitness through regular swimming,
where I might otherwise have gone for a walk instead. This is fine for
general aerobic fitness, but after only 7 miles of walking at the weekend I
ended up limping back to the car. Not good news.

It does seem as though I am making the common mistake of trying to walk on
the front of my foot more than the heel to alleviate the pain though, which
just leads to a very sore calf and simply worsens the problem.

Anyway, I'm off to do some stretches and maybe a quick walk to see how it's
doing, wish me luck.

Regards,
Richard G.

In article <[email hidden]>, Richard G.
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

In Article <[email hidden]>,"Paul Saunders"

Quoted message said:

Probably not relevant or much use to you, but with my shoulder injury I
found that resting it was most helpful, and then only lifting light
weights. Trying to exercise it regularly made it worse. Some injuries
just need time.

I'm sure that's good advice and given the opportunity that would be part of
my approach, but isn't really an option for the next month or so. I have
been trying to maintain and increase my fitness through regular swimming,
where I might otherwise have gone for a walk instead. This is fine for
general aerobic fitness, but after only 7 miles of walking at the weekend I
ended up limping back to the car. Not good news.

You are not going to be able do much with your fitness in the next
couple of weeks. Even if you had no injury it simply won't increase much
in such a short time.

I would therefore concentrate on the injury healing as much as possible.
If that means rest (with flexibility exercises) then so be it. That way
you at least stand a chance of it being sufficiently healed for your
trek. If you overdo it before the trek and it gets worse before you
leave you might either not be able to go or you might not be able to
fully take part in the trek.

On the other hand if you rest the injury and hence are slightly less fit
than you might otherwise have been it probably will not make much
difference to the trip.

I wish you luck with your recovery and hope you have a good time on your
trip.

--

Dominic Sexton
http://www.dscs.demon.co.uk/

In article <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

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It sounds a bit daft, perhaps, but do watch where you're putting your
feet. It's so easy to twist an ankle.

Not daft at all.

I've almost twisted my ankle more than once - even walking on a path
which appeared quite decent. It doesn't take much, and the consequences
don't bear thinking about.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In Article <[email hidden]>,Dominic Sexton

Quoted message said:

On the other hand if you rest the injury and hence are slightly less fit
than you might otherwise have been it probably will not make much
difference to the trip.

Mmmm, point taken. Probably about where I expected to be (although not where
I wanted to be!) fitness wise anyway.

Think I'll be doing a bit more swimming in the meantime.

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I wish you luck with your recovery and hope you have a good time on your
trip.

Ta very much.

Regards,
Richard G.

In Article <[email hidden]>,Peewiglet

Quoted message said:

This sounds like wise counsel to me. It can be frustrating taking some
time out to heal, but it's often the best way.

Yes, ordinarily I wouldn't need to be told twice to put my feet up and abuse
the good nature of my other half!

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I wish you luck with your recovery and hope you have a good time on your
trip.

Same here. Very best of luck 🙂

Cheers. Might even write a TR, but don't think your longest urw TR record is
under threat!

Regards,
Richard G.