Cycling Permits

Floyd said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

Yes. Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman
checking that I have a permit. Mostly they seem gobsmacked, firstly that I stop and secondly by the
fact that they can't then tell me (after they've seen I have a permit) "It's our canal, you
shouldn't cycle here .. " They always seem to get offended when I point out that the local club only
has fishing rights, not jurisdiction over the towpath right-of-way .. 😉

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Floyd said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

I've got one but never had to show it to anyone. After ordering from website it took several months
to arrive. Its probably a good plan cos if you run somones dog over or something it wouldnt be good
if you dont have one 🙂

--
-Alex

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Quoted message said:

Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman checking
that I have a permit.

Do you ask to see their fishing licences?

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(Floyd) said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?

The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes wrong)
that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and that if
you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been there. So
it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

Geraint Jones said:

(Floyd) said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?

The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes
wrong) that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and
that if you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been
there. So it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

Not a get out in law as the landowner will be liable under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 for any
injury that results while a legitimate user or trespasser is on their land. The point is essentially
that it is private land and that a lawful user should not enter without consent, I assume the permit
is intended to regularise the entry upon the land.

Agreed you've read the rules but legally what cover do you have if you do have an accident?

Floyd

On Thu, 22 May 2003 21:25:48 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Geraint

Jones) said:

(Floyd) said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?

The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes wrong)
that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and that if
you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been there. So
it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

"Tenex" <[email hidden]> wrote: ( Geraint Jones wrote: ) > [email hidden] (Floyd) wrote: (

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? ) > ( > The "point" such as it is, is

that if you have it can reasonably ) > argued (when something goes wrong) that you have seen, read,
and ( > agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; ) ( Not a get out in law as the
landowner will be liable under the Occupiers ) Liability Act 1984 for any injury that results while
a legitimate user or ( trespasser is on their land. The point is essentially that it is private )
land and that a lawful user should not enter without consent, I assume the ( permit is intended to
regularise the entry upon the land.

The rules I was thinking of are the lists of stretches where "cycling is permitted" (and how vastly
hazardous it is). These permits are not about entry to the land, but about being daft enough to
cycle alongside deep water. My understanding, since you invoke the Occupiers Liability Act 1984, is
that the permit shows that "such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances of the case" have
been taken to give you notice under section 1 subsection 5 of that Act, discharging the duty of care
by giving a warning and discouraging the taking of the risk (and so are in fact "a get-out"😉.

What are the rules about cycling on canal towpaths in Scotland?

(Floyd) said:

Agreed you've read the rules but legally what cover do you have if you do have an accident?

Being on a stretch of the grand union where cycling is not permitted, I collared a water baliff type
guy and asked. He said the purpose of the permit was so that access was permissive and a ROW wasn't
established. He said that in the event of a collision though on a restricted path you really don't
want a permit - as then you can say that you didn't know that it was restricted and were following
the rest of the sheep.

Also the only people who could demand to see permits were wterways staff and bargemasters. Anglers
could f*** right off in his words (I gather he didn't like them very much in general)

Quoted message said:

Floyd

On Thu, 22 May 2003 21:25:48 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Geraint

Jones) said:

(Floyd) said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?

The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes
wrong) that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and
that if you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been
there. So it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

--
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looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

I initially asked the question because it's the Union Canal in Scotland that I cycle along. Looks
like the same applies to all British canals.

Floyd

On Thu, 22 May 2003 23:10:09 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Geraint

Jones) said:

What are the rules about cycling on canal towpaths in Scotland?

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

Geraint Jones said:

(and so are in fact "a get-out"😉.

It would be a matter to be determined by a court on the basis of the evidence (including eg
was regular maintenance / inspection carried out, etc) and it is far from the assured position
they seek.

I've noticed these signs before, but I'm afraid I have ignored them and never been stopped. What
puzzles me now though is that the Kennet and Avon canal towpath is now an NCN route (4), so surely
as such there cannot be a permit scheme in operation? Maybe they've taken the permit signs down and
I just haven't noticed.

Rupert

"Floyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

Floyd

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Floyd) wrote:
( Iinitially asked the question because it's the Union Canal in ) Scotland that I cycle along.
Looks like the same applies to all ( British canals.

Yes, The reason I asked about Scotland is not that BWB make any distinction, but that Tenex invoked
the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 which only applies in England and Wales. There is a different duty
of care under the Occupiers Liability Act (Scotland).

Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date now don't you. I don't, but I think it's earlier. 1960s
sometime; it corresponds to but is later than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and
Wales, which is the same age as I am.

Alex Graham said:

I've got one but never had to show it to anyone. After ordering from website it took several
months to arrive.

Just went to the Britsh Waterways web site. After you've entered details the "permit" is a
downloadable PDF.

--
Jose Marques

Geraint Jones said:

Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date now don't you. I don't, but I think it's earlier. 1960s
sometime; it corresponds to but is later than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and
Wales, which is the same age as I am.

I'm not sure what a "real" Occupiers Liability Act is (?) but there are two of that title in force
and relevant to England & Wales namely 1957 and 1984.

"Rupert Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: ( I've noticed these signs before, but I'm
afraid I have ignored them and ) never been stopped. What puzzles me now though is that the Kennet
and Avon ( canal towpath is now an NCN route (4), so surely as such there cannot be a ) permit
scheme in operation? Maybe they've taken the permit signs down and I ( just haven't noticed.

When the K&A was opened up it went from being a payment-for-permit-required to being a
no-free-permit-required, which at the time was Exceedingly Odd[TM].

Danny Colyer said:

Quoted message said:

Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman
checking that I have a permit.

Do you ask to see their fishing licences?

Oh yes .. 😉

I ask for their rod licences, day ticket and or fishing club membership card etc etc .. but only
when they stop me. I wouldn't presume to ask any fisherman unless he's stopped me first. I can't
think why they feel they must stop cyclists . ..

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"Floyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

Floyd

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

Got stopped once on the Grand Union near Southall by a cop and a waterways official with a little
barrier type thing. They were *amazed* when I produced one.

Stephen (aka steford) said:

"Floyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

Floyd

technofreak.comtechnofreak.comOpen ↗

Got stopped once on the Grand Union near Southall by a cop and a waterways official with a little
barrier type thing. They were *amazed* when I produced one.

I've just downloaded one (pdf). It says you should carry it with you - will a floppy disk do? :-)

Tim.

--
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"Tenex" <[email hidden]> wrote: ( Geraint Jones wrote: ) > Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date
now don't you. I don't, but ( > I think it's earlier. 1960s sometime; it corresponds to but is later
) > than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and Wales, which ( > is the same age as I am.
) ( I'm not sure what a "real" Occupiers Liability Act is (?) but there are two ) of that title in
force and relevant to England & Wales namely 1957 and 1984.

The "real" one, of course, is the 1957 one, which codified the common law duty of care to people on
your land with your permission; it was modified by the 1984 act to add a duty of care others whether
or not they were lawfully present. The Scottish Act is, I think, 1960 and the duty of care under
that, whilst (I think) it extends to everybody including trespassers, is "reasonable in all the
circumstances of the case". (So steamingly reasonable, Scottish law.) I don't know whether a court
would consider it reasonable of a landowner not to prevent a trespasser from harming himself by
doing something that was unwise in the first place. I think that means that whilst in England and
Wales the BWB has a duty to try to tell you that you would be stupid to cycle on some of its
towpaths, in Scotland it might not have to. I don't suppose we need to pursue legal position as it
currently is in Northern Ireland since there are no BWB waterways there.

I do wish I had not got into this. I'm off for a ride, me.