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Advice for a big runner

Started by Pete Desautelle · · Last activity · 12 posts · 275 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
24 August 2004
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25 August 2004
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Pete Desautelle
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  1. Hi all-
    Any opinions would be appreciated.

    I am a big runner: 6'4" and (down to) 235 lbs.
    I am training for a marathon, and was injured a few weeks ago with a pulled
    calf. Its better now, but like a fool I did little cross training during
    the injury recovery. Now I am faced with the marathon in 8-1/2 weeks, and
    wondering if I am too late.

    I ran, over the last 8 days: 8 miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off, off,
    then 16. Went slow, felt ok. wondering though if I still have a chance at
    running this race.

    Other questions:
    1. I am trying to improve my running form as I think I caused the calf pull
    by bouncing up/down too much. One source told me to try to increase foot
    turnover to around 90, while shortening my stride. I CANT get it over 73.
    Any suggestions?

    2. How much should a heavy runner be actually running? I have a marathon
    training plan that says I should be cranking out 55 miles a week at this
    point, not my measly 30+. I have heard some tell me I should NEVER run more
    than 3x a week (2x for 45 min, then a long run), and cross train the rest of
    the time (swim and bike, or water run) as my size would cause injury again.

    Any advice would be appreciated. I think I can still lose 10 pounds safely
    and increase running distance, but am greatly concerned about injury again.
    I should also say that I'm 38, fairly new to the running game, and been
    running as much as possible for the last 20 weeks, but never more than 30
    miles/ week. More like 20-25.

    Thanks!

  2. Pete Desautelle wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi all-
    Any opinions would be appreciated.

    I am a big runner: 6'4" and (down to) 235 lbs.
    I am training for a marathon, and was injured a few weeks ago with a pulled
    calf. Its better now, but like a fool I did little cross training during
    the injury recovery. Now I am faced with the marathon in 8-1/2 weeks, and
    wondering if I am too late.

    I ran, over the last 8 days: 8 miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off, off,
    then 16. Went slow, felt ok. wondering though if I still have a chance at
    running this race.

    Other questions:
    1. I am trying to improve my running form as I think I caused the calf pull
    by bouncing up/down too much. One source told me to try to increase foot
    turnover to around 90, while shortening my stride. I CANT get it over 73.
    Any suggestions?

    2. How much should a heavy runner be actually running? I have a marathon
    training plan that says I should be cranking out 55 miles a week at this
    point, not my measly 30+. I have heard some tell me I should NEVER run


    more

    Quoted message said:

    than 3x a week (2x for 45 min, then a long run), and cross train the rest


    of

    Quoted message said:

    the time (swim and bike, or water run) as my size would cause injury again.

    Any advice would be appreciated. I think I can still lose 10 pounds safely
    and increase running distance, but am greatly concerned about injury again.
    I should also say that I'm 38, fairly new to the running game, and been
    running as much as possible for the last 20 weeks, but never more than 30
    miles/ week. More like 20-25.

    Thanks!

    What is your goal? To finish? To beat a certain time? If you can run 16
    now and you have 8 weeks to go, then will probably be able to finish. As
    someone who does long runs on low-mileage cross-training weeks, I'll give my
    2 cents. Given all you've said, I would recommend the following:

    1) Continue the kind of pattern you stated above: "over the last 8 days: 8
    miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off, off, then 16", i.e. don't feel you
    have to run every day. Go by feel, but try to run every other day or at
    least 3 times a week.

    2) Add in some cross-training like cycling (with higher cadence) on your
    off running days, but don't overdo it.

    3) If you feel anything is "off" in your feet or joints or muscles, either
    stop running for that day or mix in some walking into your runs. If you
    overdo it, cross-train if possible, but listen to your body. Think about
    the training you're doing and how you're recovering from it. Learning how
    much to stress yourself and how much recovery is needed for improvement is
    crucial.

    4) Do your long runs every 2 weeks to allow your body time to adjust, and
    run an intermediate distance on in-between weeks. If needed, walk some
    during your long runs to let your body go longer, especially if its hot out
    or you feel soreness or fatigue. I use this in extreme heat and it works
    great. When I do this I walk for 1 to 2 mins out of every 10 mins. This
    makes it easy because I just watch for :10 :20 :30, etc. then walk a bit.
    Assuming you just did your long run, with 8 weeks to go, for long runs I
    would do something like this:

    next week go 10
    in 2 weeks go 18
    in 3 weeks go 12
    in 4 weeks go 20
    in 5 weeks go 14
    in 6 weeks go 22, then slowly taper to race day
    in 7 weeks go 10, go easy the final week
    in 8 weeks race

    5) Don't worry about your stride rate, just try to run smoothly without
    over-powering your strides.

    Also, practice drinking and eating during your long runs. Getting 200+
    Cal/hour into your body during your long runs and the race will help you
    finish strong. If it's hot take a salt tab every hour.

    - Tony

  3. Pete Desautelle said:

    Hi all-
    Any opinions would be appreciated.

    I am a big runner: 6'4" and (down to) 235 lbs.
    I am training for a marathon, and was injured a few weeks ago with a pulled
    calf. Its better now, but like a fool I did little cross training during
    the injury recovery. Now I am faced with the marathon in 8-1/2 weeks, and
    wondering if I am too late.

    I wouldn't do so under the circumstances you describe. It would probably be
    very painful, you may get injured, and you'll be slow. Your preparation is not
    ideal, some of the questions you're asking should have been answered
    months ago. But it's up to you.

    Quoted message said:

    I ran, over the last 8 days: 8 miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off, off,
    then 16. Went slow, felt ok. wondering though if I still have a chance at
    running this race.

    Other questions:
    1. I am trying to improve my running form as I think I caused the calf pull
    by bouncing up/down too much. One source told me to try to increase foot
    turnover to around 90, while shortening my stride. I CANT get it over 73.
    Any suggestions?

    What pace are you running at ? It's not unusual to have a lower stride rate
    when running very slowly. This usually comes with time. I don't think it's
    a great idea to force the issue, but if your stride is slow, it's good to
    be aware of it.

    Quoted message said:

    2. How much should a heavy runner be actually running? I have a marathon
    training plan that says I should be cranking out 55 miles a week at this
    point, not my measly 30+.

    You need to gradually build up to it. It takes time.

    Quoted message said:

    I have heard some tell me I should NEVER run more
    than 3x a week (2x for 45 min, then a long run),

    I don't agree with this. Perhaps 3 times a week plus cross training is a good
    starting point, and it will help you lose weight while minimising injury risk.
    But there's nothing terribly magical about the number 3. It is not a biological
    maximum, not even for heavy runners.

    By the way, you will eventually need to abandon this philosophy to get up to 55
    miles per week!

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  4. Quoted message said:

    injured a few weeks ago with a pulled
    calf.

    Be careful, if the mother cow is around, she'll kick the [censored] out of you for
    pulling her kid around.

  5. Quoted message said:

    I wouldn't do so

    Ask this punk how many marathons he's run before taking his advice.
    8 weeks is a very long time.

  6. Thanks Tony and Donovan-

    More info:
    On the 16 mile run I went out at a pace between 9'30/mile to 11'00/mile (I
    have a GPS) with a few walk breaks here and there. I'm not settting any
    records!

    I think I'd like to just finish, maybe in about 4-1/2 hours, but this may be
    unrealistic. I made very quick gains at the beginning of my training
    program, but got overzealous and hurt myself. I will try to strengthen my
    legs a little and with some weight loss, I'm hoping to make it easier on my
    body.

    I am glad you said it would be possible for me to eventaully exceed 3 runs
    per week. It seemed lfairly low to me, and would never allow me to get
    better at running.

    "Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Pete Desautelle said:

    Hi all-
    Any opinions would be appreciated.

    I am a big runner: 6'4" and (down to) 235 lbs.
    I am training for a marathon, and was injured a few weeks ago with a


    pulled

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    calf. Its better now, but like a fool I did little cross training


    during

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    the injury recovery. Now I am faced with the marathon in 8-1/2 weeks,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wondering if I am too late.

    I wouldn't do so under the circumstances you describe. It would probably


    be

    Quoted message said:

    very painful, you may get injured, and you'll be slow. Your preparation is


    not

    Quoted message said:

    ideal, some of the questions you're asking should have been answered
    months ago. But it's up to you.

    Quoted message said:

    I ran, over the last 8 days: 8 miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off,


    off,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    then 16. Went slow, felt ok. wondering though if I still have a chance


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    running this race.

    Other questions:
    1. I am trying to improve my running form as I think I caused the calf


    pull

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    by bouncing up/down too much. One source told me to try to increase


    foot

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    turnover to around 90, while shortening my stride. I CANT get it over


    73.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Any suggestions?

    What pace are you running at ? It's not unusual to have a lower stride


    rate

    Quoted message said:

    when running very slowly. This usually comes with time. I don't think it's
    a great idea to force the issue, but if your stride is slow, it's good to
    be aware of it.

    Quoted message said:

    2. How much should a heavy runner be actually running? I have a


    marathon

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    training plan that says I should be cranking out 55 miles a week at this
    point, not my measly 30+.

    You need to gradually build up to it. It takes time.

    Quoted message said:

    I have heard some tell me I should NEVER run more
    than 3x a week (2x for 45 min, then a long run),

    I don't agree with this. Perhaps 3 times a week plus cross training is a


    good

    Quoted message said:

    starting point, and it will help you lose weight while minimising injury


    risk.

    Quoted message said:

    But there's nothing terribly magical about the number 3. It is not a


    biological

    Quoted message said:

    maximum, not even for heavy runners.

    By the way, you will eventually need to abandon this philosophy to get up


    to 55

    Quoted message said:

    miles per week!

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  7. Pete Desautelle said:

    Thanks Tony and Donovan-

    More info:
    On the 16 mile run I went out at a pace between 9'30/mile to 11'00/mile (I
    have a GPS) with a few walk breaks here and there. I'm not settting any
    records!

    At that sort of pace (especially slower than 10 min per mile), it's normal to
    have slow turnover. You can gradually improve your turnover by doing strides
    (google this), but it takes time.

    Quoted message said:

    I think I'd like to just finish, maybe in about 4-1/2 hours, but this may be
    unrealistic.

    Just see how your long runs go. If you can get in a couple of 20 milers without
    killing yourself, then you're looking good. What's most important at this stage
    is to get through some long runs succesfully, without getting injured.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  8. Don said:
    << You can gradually improve your turnover by doing strides
    (google this), but it takes time. >>

    what's the difference between strides and Fartlek?

    when on the trreadmill, i will allow m yself to drift farther back on the
    moving belt. then accelerate forward and move toward the front of the belt,
    then repeat. kind of fun, certainly relieves the monotony.

    now, Donovan, is that a stride or Fartlek move? (I already Googled, and there
    was not answer to this question.)

    \\ - - //
    ( @ @ )
    +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----+
    +------------------------Oooo----+

  9. [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
    the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

    In article <[email hidden]>, Pete Desautelle

    Quoted message said:


    Thanks Tony and Donovan-

    More info:
    On the 16 mile run I went out at a pace between 9'30/mile to 11'00/mile (I
    have a GPS) with a few walk breaks here and there. I'm not settting any
    records!

    Good advice from Tony and Donovan.

    Regarding the calf pull, I'd massage it:
    http:www.mindfulness.com/of1.asp

    check out the LSR thread and also Dot's reponse to: LSD and starting
    with 3+ hours on one's feet.

    I started in the mid 70's same height and weight having lost about 10
    or 12 pounds to get to 236 when I did a bike ergometer stress test that
    was done at the beginning of a 8 month research study on the
    Physiological and Psychological Effects of Endurance Activity.
    Basically started 3 times a week in October. Then added a 3 to 4 hour
    walk/run or whatever as long as one kept moving.

    In January I did a half marathon at the San Diego Marathon. My mentor
    said I was ready for a marathon. I did a 14 miler a week later and
    then two weeks later I ran the Las Vegas Marathon.

    The article "My First and Last Flip Off"
    http://www.mindfulness.com/om4.asp talks about that first marathon
    experience

    I finished in 5 hours. A horrendous experience but came back in 3
    months to run the Avenue of the Giants in a 3:45. By that time I had
    become addicted to running and was seeing the effects of the amount of
    exercise and the beginning of a proper eating regimen that took me down
    to 200 pounds. In the next year my weight was around 180 and a year
    and 10 months after my first marathon I ran the NYC in a 3:01:23 and
    had the wonderful experience of delivering a paper at the NY Academy of
    Sciences on: A Psychological Study of 50 Sub-3 Hour Marathoners.

    It was in my second and third years of running that I began to
    concentrate on running form and style. I continue to study running
    form and style. If you're interested, and want to make a good
    investment, I'd suggest that you get Danny Dreyer's DVD on ChiRunning.

    Or if you're in San Diego on a Sunday morning, come down to the San
    Diego Marathon Clinic at DeAnza Cove, and we'll do an easy 5 or 6 miler
    working on form and style. The Clinic has been free since it started
    in 1975.

    Regarding the 180/steps/minute or 90 strides/ minute the idea is that
    the cadence remains the same whether a 10 minute mile or a 5 minute
    mile. The trick is to be able to run slow with that cadence. The big
    advantage is that you're not lifting up your center of gravity, i.e.
    loping along which means coming down harder on the ground.

    Even Nike is getting into the act with their "Free" almost like running
    barefoot shoe. What a number of us at rec.running have been advocating
    for 10 or more years about running in minimal cushioned shoes.

    So the idea is that you're picking up your feet/knees an inch or two
    and not lifting your center of gravity an added half inch to inch.

    If you learn to lean from the ankle and only lift your knees so that
    the lower leg can scribe it ellipse, and reduce your vertical motion a
    half inch, you will save lifting 235 pounds one foot vertically every
    245 steps. By teaching people this kind of form and style those of us
    who have advocated the ball/heel or midsole or flatfooted landing have
    been able to decrease a marathoners time by 15 minutes to an hour
    without changing the training distance or training time.

    Another big advantage of this is minimized vertical impact on feet and
    joints.

    With the good tips from Tony and Donovan, I'd add that you do your
    shorter long runs and then walk for another hour or more with the idea
    of being on your feet a longer period of time without injuring
    yourself.

    I'll send to you a photo from the mid-80's when I created the WOMWAM or
    Word of Mouth, Walk a Marthon. It was in early September and the
    temperature that day was about 105 or 106 with humidity. Most of us
    walked it, and a few people ran it. The woman on the right in the
    green shirt is Deborah Saleny who lead the Austin Fit group a few years
    ago, and was involved in putting on the marathon there. The two guys
    in the back, Tim Patrizzi and Rich Sojka, two good friends-a welder at
    NASSCO and a physicist at Boeing. That's me with the Nike's painter's
    cap in the front with my then two young daughters.

    Tom Bassler's Rule of Weight was a minute off your time for every pound
    off. I can't remember what his limit was. But a 2:25 in Athens by a
    woman weighting 100 pounds or under...leaves a good bit of improvement
    for you.

    Remember to listen to your body well.

    In health and on the run,
    Ozzie Gontang
    Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
    Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
    Mindful Running:
    http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

  10. Virginiaz said:

    Don said:
    << You can gradually improve your turnover by doing strides
    (google this), but it takes time. >>

    what's the difference between strides and Fartlek?

    when on the trreadmill, i will allow m yself to drift farther back on the
    moving belt. then accelerate forward and move toward the front of the belt,
    then repeat. kind of fun, certainly relieves the monotony.

    now, Donovan, is that a stride or Fartlek move? (I already Googled, and
    there was not answer to this question.)

    It could be either. The main difference is that fartlek is completely
    unstructured/unregulated, your fast sections may be anything from gradual
    surges at LT pace to fast dashes (like strides), whereas strides are always
    short (no longer than 200m, but usually closer to 100m) and fairly fast
    generally no faster than 400m pace, but no slower than 1 mile pace.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi
    http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

  11. Thanks everybody. This is really great stuff.

    To think I once got advice that said "dont lost weight for your first
    marathon". (15 weeks ago I was 263 lbs).

    I anticipate it being a difficult run but I am going totrain my a$$ off and
    run it. We'll see what happens.

    Thanks again

    "Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:_6NWc.7931$Ff2.4362@trndny06...

    Quoted message said:

    Pete Desautelle wrote in message <[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    Hi all-
    Any opinions would be appreciated.

    I am a big runner: 6'4" and (down to) 235 lbs.
    I am training for a marathon, and was injured a few weeks ago with a


    pulled

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    calf. Its better now, but like a fool I did little cross training during
    the injury recovery. Now I am faced with the marathon in 8-1/2 weeks,


    and

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wondering if I am too late.

    I ran, over the last 8 days: 8 miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off,


    off,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    then 16. Went slow, felt ok. wondering though if I still have a chance


    at

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    running this race.

    Other questions:
    1. I am trying to improve my running form as I think I caused the calf


    pull

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    by bouncing up/down too much. One source told me to try to increase foot
    turnover to around 90, while shortening my stride. I CANT get it over


    73.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Any suggestions?

    2. How much should a heavy runner be actually running? I have a


    marathon

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    training plan that says I should be cranking out 55 miles a week at this
    point, not my measly 30+. I have heard some tell me I should NEVER run


    more

    Quoted message said:

    than 3x a week (2x for 45 min, then a long run), and cross train the rest


    of

    Quoted message said:

    the time (swim and bike, or water run) as my size would cause injury


    again.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Any advice would be appreciated. I think I can still lose 10 pounds


    safely

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and increase running distance, but am greatly concerned about injury


    again.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I should also say that I'm 38, fairly new to the running game, and been
    running as much as possible for the last 20 weeks, but never more than 30
    miles/ week. More like 20-25.

    Thanks!

    What is your goal? To finish? To beat a certain time? If you can run 16
    now and you have 8 weeks to go, then will probably be able to finish. As
    someone who does long runs on low-mileage cross-training weeks, I'll give


    my

    Quoted message said:

    2 cents. Given all you've said, I would recommend the following:

    1) Continue the kind of pattern you stated above: "over the last 8 days: 8
    miles, off, 5 miles, off, 5 miles, off, off, then 16", i.e. don't feel you
    have to run every day. Go by feel, but try to run every other day or at
    least 3 times a week.

    2) Add in some cross-training like cycling (with higher cadence) on your
    off running days, but don't overdo it.

    3) If you feel anything is "off" in your feet or joints or muscles,


    either

    Quoted message said:

    stop running for that day or mix in some walking into your runs. If you
    overdo it, cross-train if possible, but listen to your body. Think about
    the training you're doing and how you're recovering from it. Learning how
    much to stress yourself and how much recovery is needed for improvement is
    crucial.

    4) Do your long runs every 2 weeks to allow your body time to adjust, and
    run an intermediate distance on in-between weeks. If needed, walk some
    during your long runs to let your body go longer, especially if its hot


    out

    Quoted message said:

    or you feel soreness or fatigue. I use this in extreme heat and it works
    great. When I do this I walk for 1 to 2 mins out of every 10 mins. This
    makes it easy because I just watch for :10 :20 :30, etc. then walk a bit.
    Assuming you just did your long run, with 8 weeks to go, for long runs I
    would do something like this:

    next week go 10
    in 2 weeks go 18
    in 3 weeks go 12
    in 4 weeks go 20
    in 5 weeks go 14
    in 6 weeks go 22, then slowly taper to race day
    in 7 weeks go 10, go easy the final week
    in 8 weeks race

    5) Don't worry about your stride rate, just try to run smoothly without
    over-powering your strides.

    Also, practice drinking and eating during your long runs. Getting 200+
    Cal/hour into your body during your long runs and the race will help you
    finish strong. If it's hot take a salt tab every hour.

    - Tony

  12. Quoted message said:

    To think I once got advice that said "dont lost weight for your first
    marathon". (15 weeks ago I was 263 lbs).

    I think what they were getting at is that if you are in a training regimen,
    don't change anything just before the marathon, especially weight loss which
    can leave you feeling weaker, the last thing you want before a marathon.

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