Helmets

DT said:

Helmet wearing seems to be very much a cultural issue. Here in Ottawa, the
majority of bikers wear helmets. In Denmark, virtually no wears helmets.

Which has more cyclist serious accidents, per mile travelled,
comparted to teh equivalent pedestrian rate of serious accidents?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

DT said:

Helmet wearing seems to be very much a cultural issue. Here in Ottawa, the
majority of bikers wear helmets. In Denmark, virtually no wears helmets.

Which is interesting in itself. I don't have the Canadian figures but
in the neighbouring USA where helmet wearing rates are also high at 38%,
cycling fatalities are high at around 110 per Bn km wereas in Denmark
where helmet wearing rates are low at 3%, fatalities are much lower at
around 18 per Bn km.

Tony

Andy said:

I'm afraid you're wasting you time on here Peter. The anti-helmet nazi's
are all over this newsgroup.

That's a bit out of line, IMHO. I too used to think helmets were a panacea, but I've been convinced otherwise.

Andy said:

I posted to see if you'd bite....
..and you did :-)

Fine. So it was a pointless troll. Thanks for clearing that up.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

DT said:

Helmet wearing seems to be very much a cultural issue. Here in
Ottawa, the majority of bikers wear helmets. In Denmark, virtually
no wears helmets.

Maybe that has more to do with the fact that Ontario has a helmet law while
Denmark does not, than some cultural difference between the cyclist
populations.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Toby Douglass said:

Facts are a mere impedement to those in denial 🙂

That's why you can never help a drowning Egyptian...

IGMC

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

in message
<[email hidden]>, DT

(') said:

Helmet wearing seems to be very much a cultural issue. Here in
Ottawa, the
majority of bikers wear helmets. In Denmark, virtually no wears
helmets.

.... and in Denmark they have one of the lowest rates of head injury
among cyclists in the world, whereas in Ottawa you have a rate which, I
believe, is very high and still rising.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

There seems to be an interesting view that riding without a helmet is
somehow safer than riding with one. And a few people seem to be trying to
put their kids off wearing helmets for some reason.

Hi

As with anything else in life people make risk assesments about what
they are doing.

For down hill mountain biking falling off the bike is par for the
course, the main way to stop head injuries would be not to do it which
is what some people do, other people decide to do it, but to reduce the
risk of head injuries when they fall off, they wear a helmet.

For commute biking falling off the bike is not par for the course, the
main cause of injuries tends to be collisions with motor vehicles.
Therefore again one way to reduce accidents would to be not to cycle.
Another would be make your self more visible to other road users
(lights, day-glo clothing, reflective clothing etc)to reduce the risk of
an accident. If you decide to cycle you have to assume that at some
point you may have an accident, so at this point you can decide to wear
or not wear a helmet to reduce the possible injuries.

What I find strange is the number of commute cyclists I see wearing
helmets ( I assume to reduce injuries in an accident) who have no lights
and are wearing dark clothing, so are making no attempt to reduce their
risk of the accident in the first place.

Allan

Allan' 'amv.2f said:

What I find strange is the number of commute cyclists I see wearing
helmets ( I assume to reduce injuries in an accident) who have no
lights and are wearing dark clothing, so are making no attempt to
reduce their risk of the accident in the first place.

Precisely. That is, in my view, the inevitable effect of the arrogation of
the cycle safety agenda by helmet monomaniacs: a signifncant number of
people are now convinced that wearing a helmet is the first, best thing you
can do for your safety - and whatever you think of helmets, that view is
clearly nonsensical, because crash prevention (notably including conspicuity
and riding skills) has to come before attempts at injury mitigation.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington
University

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

There seems to be an interesting view that riding without a helmet is
somehow safer than riding with one. And a few people seem to be trying to
put their kids off wearing helmets for some reason.

The other day, a mate of mine had quite a big accident while trying a bit
too hard on a local mountain bike route. His front wheel stopped suddenly,
and he found the shortest route to ground, landing on his head. Result,
broken helmet, mild headache, cuts and brusies, but otherwise fine. He is
in no doubt whatever that the helmet saved him.

People go to endless lengths to find statistics that "prove" that helmets
are useless, or even unsafe. Anyone who is in any doubt that helmets are a
useful aid may care to try to following experiment.

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.

Not preaching - just trying to redress the balance.

Just to add my tuppence worth (for indeed that is all its worth after
the worthy reposts above);

1) If people learnt to ride properly (getting out of the gutter, using
the proper hand signals, being visible to everyone else, etc) then they
wouldn't need to wear a helmet in the first place.

2) If people believe everything the media tells them, then more fool
them. GMTV are starting a campaign against second hand child seats,
which seems very noble, until you realise that the biggest supporters of
said campaign are the manufacturers. Of course they are going to want
people to go out and buy new child seats instead of second hand ones
because their profits will drop! GMTV have fell for this one hook, line
and sinker. I'm not saying that every child seat bought second hand is
ok or ought but there is a similarity there with the helmet debate
that I couldn't ignore. Thankfully for we cyclists, we have people such
as Guy amongst us who stand up for common sense, in a world where common
sense is in short supply.

Me? I wear a helmet when I think I might fall off somewhere, and I
don't when I think I won't. I have enough confidence in my ability to
be able to make up my mind when I'm at risk. When your time is up, it
is up, simple as that...

As an aside, I recently got contact lenses after 20 years of wearing
glasses. As a result, for the first time in my life (I couldn't be
arsed before) I have sunglasses, and I can see where I'm going on hot
summer evenings!

I'm going to start a compulsory-wearing-of-sunglasses campaign!

Pete

P.S Not really!

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

in message
<[email hidden]>, DT

(') said:

Helmet wearing seems to be very much a cultural issue. Here in
Ottawa, the majority of bikers wear helmets. In Denmark, virtually no wears
helmets.

... and in Denmark they have one of the lowest rates of head injury
among cyclists in the world, whereas in Ottawa you have a rate which, I
believe, is very high and still rising.

I live in Ottawa so I am curious as to the source of the Ottawa claims
- i.e. claims that majority wear helmets and head injury rates are
high and rising.

Ottawa is in the Province of Ontario. Ontario has a child helmet law
introduced in 1995. The law has never been enforced so has had little
effect on helmet use. Kids by and large now ignore it although many
still wear helmets. Helmet use among the local cycling population rose
during the 1990's exceeding well over 50% in 1994 counts. See "An
Analysis of Cycling and Helmet Use in Ottawa, Ontario" at the
Vehicular Cyclist website: http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/ click on
Reports. I'm not aware of any subsequent counts.

From my own observations, I'd say helmet use has declined slightly in
the last 10 years. I'd guess to around 50%. Unlike 10 years ago,
helmets are no longer an issue in the cycling community except for
triathletes and a few nutty zealots.

I know of no analysis of Ottawa cyclist head injuries, although on the
Vehicular Cyclist website there are trend charts showing no apparent
effect of helmet use on Canadian cyclist fatalities. (Click on
Fatality Trends.)

If someone has additional information I'd like to see it.

Peter Taylor said:

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.

It won't, you know, because it doesn't come close to simulating a real
bike crash. If I were forced at gun point to run head first into a
brick wall and given the choice of a cycle helmet or just my thinning
hair, I'd opt for the cycle helmet. If I somehow knew in advance that
a group of riders would be brought down at speed with me somewhere
amongst them I'd also quite like the helmet, thank you. If I somehow
knew in advance that my front wheel was certain to lock up and send
over the bars I'd probably opt to leave the helmet off.

Actually, I'd probably lend you my bike instead.

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.

Bang your head against a brick wall? Most of us are alread doing that
in this thread. Without helmets on.

A

Peter Taylor said:

Not preaching - just trying to redress the balance.

Trolling is the word I would have chosen, but thank you for playing ;-)

Ambrose Nankivell <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and run,
slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed accident.
Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you can
trust.

Bang your head against a brick wall? Most of us are alread doing that
in this thread. Without helmets on.

A

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

Russell

Russell said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

A single statistic?!!!!

How bloody pointless is that?
--
Cheerful Pedalling
John Mallard

Russell said:

...
Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

Russell

Well hello bacon brains!

If brains were made of bacon... would Russell have enough for breakfast?

Roger

(Russell) said:

I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

It had probably suffered a mild blow - they are quite fragile
actually. And you still had a headache and a sore neck, so you didn't
get that much protection. It may have saved your head from some
grazing but arguably your injuries were worse with the helmet than
they would have been without it.

Quoted message said:

This rider will never again ride without one.

That of course is your privilege.

Quoted message said:

Ok, it won't protect me being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my
bacon this time!

I'm amazaed how often these "helmet saved my life" stories involve a
failed helmet and concussion. I've even heard an ambulance driver say,
"When they come round we show them the broken helmet." The concussed
cyclist is probably too dazed to draw the obvious conclusion: "I got
knocked out because the helmet failed".

--
Dave...

Get a bicycle. You will not regret it. If you live. - Mark Twain

Russell said:

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

I don't think anyone has said that a helmet wouldn't help with scrapes
and scratches but so will other sorts of headgear. Or are you trying to
pretend that while the rest of your body suffered only road rash, your
head would have been much more seriously injured? FYI it does not take
a severe blow to gouge and dent a helmet, just a fall off a stationary
bike - something you can survive quite easily without any head injury.

By all means wear your helmet to protect from scrapes and scratches in
future if you want but don't kid yourself or us that its for anything
more than that or that its the only headgear that can do that.

Tony

"Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ambrose Nankivell <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Peter Taylor said:

Sorry to post on this subject again.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Put on a bike helmet. Adjust it properly. Then put your head down and

run,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

slowly, into a wall. This will give you the idea of a low speed

accident.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then repeat without the helmet. This will give you information you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trust.

Bang your head against a brick wall? Most of us are alread doing that
in this thread. Without helmets on.

A

Well if I could interject a single statistic here:

Last Monday, I skidded off the road bike on loose chippings at high
speed.
I suffered large expanse of road rash and deep gashes to ankle, knee,
hip and arm.
Flesh departed from tip of 1 finger and 1 thumb.
Sprained ankle and a slight head & neck ache.

After being patched up, I inspected the helmet. To my absolute horror,
it had obviously taken a severe blow to the r/h side where it was
gouged and dented. A large chunk of the inner polysterene had broken
away.

This rider will never again ride without one. Ok, it won't protect me
being attacked by a car or truck but it sure saved my bacon this time!

Russell

How about this scenario. "I was very lucky as my head missed banging against
the ground by a hairsbreadth. If I had been wearinf a PFDB I would have
banged my head" Just a thought you know. My personal experience - which is
of course as valid as anyone's- is that when I was knocked off my bike by a
left turning car at a roundabought I cracked a bone in my forearm but my
head was fine as it made no contact with the ground.

Julia