Titanium vs Aluminium - relative weights

David <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I know its a bit of a "how long is a bit of string" question, but I'm
: interested to know how much weight can be save from a composite or
: titanium frame against one made from Auminium with similar strength.
: Anyone have a feeel for this stuff (manufacturers even )?

Ti will be heavier than a Al frame in general. CF can be lighter still.

Some Ti can be light, some Al can be heavy, but as a generalisation
the list above isn't too bad.

Ti > Al >= CF

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

David <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I know its a bit of a "how long is a bit of string" question, but
: I'm interested to know how much weight can be save from a composite
: or titanium frame against one made from Auminium with similar
: strength. Anyone have a feeel for this stuff (manufacturers even )?

Ti will be heavier than a Al frame in general. CF can be lighter
still.

Some Ti can be light, some Al can be heavy, but as a generalisation
the list above isn't too bad.

Uhhhmmmm... my carbon road frame weighs 1.3Kg (mind you it is 62cm).
Edinburgh Bicycle have a Ti frame (Litespeed Ghisallo) on special offer
which allegedly weighs under 2lbs or 0.9Kg (Weight Weenies reports 889g
for the 'small' and 898g for the 'medium'😉.

This compares with a Raleigh 531c (steel) frame at around 1.8Kg and a
Cannondale CAAD4 (aluminium) at 1.2Kg.

So it isn't as simple as that. The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?). So although aluminium may have better
strength to weight properties it is clearly easier to engineer an
ultra-light frame in titanium.

In answer to the OP's question the lightest aluminium frames seem to be
about 1.2Kg, the lightest titanium around 880g, and the lightest
carbon/composite around 850g.

The Litespeed frames come with lifetime warranty; so did Cannondale
frames until last year. Their manufacturers are reasonably confident of
the quality of their products. Composite bikes are of course vulnerable
to the deterioration of epoxy in sunlight, and won't last for ever.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

my other car is #<Subr-Car: #5d480>
;; This joke is not funny in emacs.

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Uhhhmmmm...

: So it isn't as simple as that.

Which is more-or-less what I said. Most Ti frames will be heavier than
an equally expensive Al frame of the same size. etc.

The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
: Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
: described as Scandium - pure?!?). So although aluminium may have better
: strength to weight properties it is clearly easier to engineer an
: ultra-light frame in titanium.

I'm not sure about this at all - it's certainly not "clear". Very light
Ti is very hard to engineer IMO

: In answer to the OP's question the lightest aluminium frames seem to be
: about 1.2Kg, the lightest titanium around 880g, and the lightest
: carbon/composite around 850g.

There's Al frames out there around the 800g mark as well. They don't
last very long. There are 1kg Al frames though that are more useful

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Simon Brooke said:

So it isn't as simple as that. The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?).

It's listed at $75 a gram, so I doubt it. When used as an additive in
aluminium alloys, it reduces the grain size, thus giving better
fatigue resistance, AIUI. Easton produces a tubing with it in.

A

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Uhhhmmmm...

: So it isn't as simple as that.

Which is more-or-less what I said. Most Ti frames will be heavier than
an equally expensive Al frame of the same size. etc.

: In answer to the OP's question the lightest aluminium frames seem to
: be about 1.2Kg, the lightest titanium around 880g, and the lightest
: carbon/composite around 850g.

There's Al frames out there around the 800g mark as well. They don't
last very long. There are 1kg Al frames though that are more useful

I'm not trying to be difficult, Arthur. I'm just not aware of these
frames. Can you name some?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This mind intentionally left blank ]

Simon Brooke said:

Composite bikes are of course vulnerable
to the deterioration of epoxy in sunlight, and won't last for ever.

Unless you do something hi-tech like, errm, paint it. It won't look
as sexy, but it won't suffer UV degradation if the epoxy is not
exposed to UV. Of course, you then need to lug round all teh extra
weight of teh paint.

Alternatively, you can pigment the resin and include a bit more resin
outside teh fibre layer.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

in message <[email hidden]>, Ian Smith

(') said:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Composite bikes are of course vulnerable
to the deterioration of epoxy in sunlight, and won't last for ever.

Unless you do something hi-tech like, errm, paint it. It won't look
as sexy, but it won't suffer UV degradation if the epoxy is not
exposed to UV. Of course, you then need to lug round all teh extra
weight of teh paint.

Alternatively, you can pigment the resin and include a bit more resin
outside teh fibre layer.

Yes, or even put ultra-violet blockers into the 'poxy. I know you can.
But nobody _does_, because they[1] all want to show off their carbon.

[1] for values of 'they' which includes 'me', naturally.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?).

Nope. Scandium frames are never pure Sc, but instead an aluminium
alloy with a *relatively*[1] high Sc content. But, of course,
describing them as 'scandium' rather than 'yet another aluminium
frame' sounds better in the marketing blurb ;-)

David E. Belcher

[1] Still only a small amount, mind, 'cause it's expensive stuff!

David E. Belcher said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?).

Nope. Scandium frames are never pure Sc, but instead an aluminium
alloy with a *relatively*[1] high Sc content. But, of course,
describing them as 'scandium' rather than 'yet another aluminium
frame' sounds better in the marketing blurb ;-)

David E. Belcher

[1] Still only a small amount, mind, 'cause it's expensive stuff!

Whatever happened to beryllium frames?
http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/beryll.html

Tony

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David E. Belcher said:

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?).

Nope. Scandium frames are never pure Sc, but instead an aluminium
alloy with a *relatively*[1] high Sc content. But, of course,
describing them as 'scandium' rather than 'yet another aluminium
frame' sounds better in the marketing blurb ;-)

David E. Belcher

[1] Still only a small amount, mind, 'cause it's expensive stuff!

Whatever happened to beryllium frames?
http://www.bikepro.com/products/metals/beryll.html

Tony

Did anyone actually make a full beryllium frame? I remember Keith Bontrager
had one tube made which cost about $7000...

Steve.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):
....

Quoted message said:

Uhhhmmmm... my carbon road frame weighs 1.3Kg (mind you it is 62cm).
Edinburgh Bicycle have a Ti frame (Litespeed Ghisallo) on special offer
which allegedly weighs under 2lbs or 0.9Kg (Weight Weenies reports 889g
for the 'small' and 898g for the 'medium'😉.

This compares with a Raleigh 531c (steel) frame at around 1.8Kg and a
Cannondale CAAD4 (aluminium) at 1.2Kg.

So it isn't as simple as that. The sub-1Kg road frames listed by Weight
Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one Teschner
described as Scandium - pure?!?).

But yours is /much better value than those ones - you got so much more
mass for your money. :-)

Quoted message said:

So although aluminium may have better
strength to weight properties it is clearly easier to engineer an
ultra-light frame in titanium.

In answer to the OP's question the lightest aluminium frames seem to be
about 1.2Kg, the lightest titanium around 880g, and the lightest
carbon/composite around 850g.

The Litespeed frames come with lifetime warranty; so did Cannondale
frames until last year. Their manufacturers are reasonably confident of
the quality of their products. Composite bikes are of course vulnerable
to the deterioration of epoxy in sunlight, and won't last for ever.

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:
:>
:> There's Al frames out there around the 800g mark as well. They don't
:> last very long. There are 1kg Al frames though that are more useful

: I'm not trying to be difficult, Arthur. I'm just not aware of these
: frames. Can you name some?

To answer to posts in one go:

Looking at the weightweenies site,

Giant TCR ONCE 2000 L 1050 g 1" head tube, anodized

That's an Al bike, and a L TCR would fit someone who normally rides a
58/60cm bike.

Scott RC AFD Team Issue 2003 54 cm (M) 980 g 982 g +0,20% 1 1/8", Scandium, sloping, averaged (985/979) Correct or complete this entry
Scott RC AFD Team Issue 2003 58 cm (XL) 1040 g 1030 g ?0,96% 1 1/8", Scandium, sloping

A L Litespeed Ghisallo is listed at 1079 (ie near enough the same). This is
as light as durable bikes get at the moment I think.

For reference, my Airborne 58cm Compact Zepplinn is just under 1600
actual weight (3Al Ti)

The sub 1kg Al frames tend to be one off specials because Al bikes
that light won't deal with heavy rides or indeed last for more than
a season or two even with a light rider.

Poshbikes did one based on a custom built frame which was passed to
ProCycling, but I can't remember when. Not very helpful I agree.
I've just recycled all my mags as well. D'oh. I don't think anyone
would realise even a 900g Al frame to the general public.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

in message <[email hidden]>, Gawnsoft

(') said:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):
...

Quoted message said:

Uhhhmmmm... my carbon road frame weighs 1.3Kg (mind you it is 62cm).
Edinburgh Bicycle have a Ti frame (Litespeed Ghisallo) on special
offer which allegedly weighs under 2lbs or 0.9Kg (Weight Weenies
reports 889g for the 'small' and 898g for the 'medium'😉.

This compares with a Raleigh 531c (steel) frame at around 1.8Kg and a
Cannondale CAAD4 (aluminium) at 1.2Kg.

So it isn't as simple as that. The sub-1Kg road frames listed by
Weight Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one
Teschner described as Scandium - pure?!?).

But yours is /much better value than those ones - you got so much more
mass for your money. :-)

Hey, I'm not complaining - even at the EBC sale price my frame cost less
than the downtube of the Lightspeed Ghisallo.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:52:26 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Gawnsoft

(') said:

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):
...

Quoted message said:

Uhhhmmmm... my carbon road frame weighs 1.3Kg (mind you it is 62cm).
Edinburgh Bicycle have a Ti frame (Litespeed Ghisallo) on special
offer which allegedly weighs under 2lbs or 0.9Kg (Weight Weenies
reports 889g for the 'small' and 898g for the 'medium'😉.

This compares with a Raleigh 531c (steel) frame at around 1.8Kg and a
Cannondale CAAD4 (aluminium) at 1.2Kg.

So it isn't as simple as that. The sub-1Kg road frames listed by
Weight Weenies are all either titanium or composite (except one
Teschner described as Scandium - pure?!?).

But yours is /much better value than those ones - you got so much more
mass for your money. :-)

Hey, I'm not complaining - even at the EBC sale price my frame cost less
than the downtube of the Lightspeed Ghisallo.

Speaking of sales... you persuaded me. I got a bar bag in Biketrax's
sale yesterday.

(I'm just off now to tell them it /did/ come complete with the
underbag light bracket, so they don't need to get me one in on special
order. (Mind you, they've already taken my money for it, so I'm not
sure quite what'll happen...)

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

in message <[email hidden]>, Gawnsoft

(') said:

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:52:26 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Hey, I'm not complaining - even at the EBC sale price my frame cost
less than the downtube of the Lightspeed Ghisallo.

Speaking of sales... you persuaded me. I got a bar bag in Biketrax's
sale yesterday.

(I'm just off now to tell them it /did/ come complete with the
underbag light bracket, so they don't need to get me one in on special
order. (Mind you, they've already taken my money for it, so I'm not
sure quite what'll happen...)

Good, aren't they?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I'm fed up with Life 1.0. I never liked it much and now it's getting
me down. I think I'll upgrade to MSLife 97 -- you know, the one that
comes in a flash new box and within weeks you're crawling with bugs.

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Gawnsoft

(') said:

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:52:26 GMT, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Hey, I'm not complaining - even at the EBC sale price my frame cost
less than the downtube of the Lightspeed Ghisallo.

Speaking of sales... you persuaded me. I got a bar bag in Biketrax's
sale yesterday.

(I'm just off now to tell them it /did/ come complete with the
underbag light bracket, so they don't need to get me one in on special
order. (Mind you, they've already taken my money for it, so I'm not
sure quite what'll happen...)

Good, aren't they?

I'm just about to go and fit it to my (I just found out today) 20kg
bike!

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

I'm getting a bit overfaced here in this thread by the Metallurgy :-)

What I really would like to know is: for mountain bike use (XC and a
bit of rough treatment) on 85% trails 15% asphalt, can I save much
weight without compromising strength by investing in a composite or
titanium frame ?
If so, is it worth the premium such a frame would cost for a non-pro
rider.
How much do these frames cost (by comparison)?
Who makes them (preferably from a mainstream or well known custom
manufacturer) ?

Further help appreciated
Dave

David <[email hidden]> wrote:

: What I really would like to know is: for mountain bike use (XC and a
: bit of rough treatment) on 85% trails 15% asphalt, can I save much
: weight without compromising strength by investing in a composite or
: titanium frame ?

Ah. MTB. You should have said 🙂

No.

I'm wary of composites for standard MTB use (ie non-racing) due to the
tendency of MTB's to run into sharp pointy things on a regular basis.

A Ti bike will be very nice but won't weigh any less than a good Al
bike.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Arthur Clune said:

I'm wary of composites for standard MTB use (ie non-racing) due to the
tendency of MTB's to run into sharp pointy things on a regular basis.

That'll be the tools in teh back of the garden shed then?

...d