Zoomers or Tyr FlexFins

As with shoes, choice of fins is a very personal matter. Your first
criterion is likely to be a comfortable fit, so your foot size and
breadth may dictate your selection. Try them on before purchasing and
if you have the opportunity, borrow a pair of each type and see how
they work for you in the pool.

The two brands you mention are very different. TYR Flex Fins have long
blades, which means you can also use them for snorkelling. As for
Zoomers, are you aware there are three kinds: blue, red (stiffer) and
Z2? I've used TYR Flex Fins, which were a good fit and fulfilled their
purpose, but I prefer my Balco Sprints, which are a popular choice in
Europe, where I live.

Although your pool markets these two kinds of rubber fin, there are
numerous other types available. I did a little research recently and
compiled a list at:

http://www.tomwilson.com/david/water/rubberswimfins.pdf

Many can be ordered online.

KOS said:

Hi, I am looking to buy a pair of fins. I am an intermediate level
swimmer- swim about 3x a week. I noticed that when I swim I do not
kick as much as I should- my kicking is not strong- would say on the
weak side. Looking for a pair of fins that would be good - my pool
sells Tyr Flex Fins- or I can order Zoomers. Please advise -

thanks,

KOS

I am a masters swimmer and have experience with red Zoomers and TYR
split Fins. So that you can gauge my answer, let me tell you I get
15,000 to 20,000 yds/week and I'm in the 50 year old age group and a
former collegiate swimmer.

My experience is that the Zoomers won't give a lot of thrust as compared
to the TYR split Fins. The split fins fold in and reduce thrust at a
very high effort. At lower effort they work like reg long fins and aid
in propulsion. For my use I like the TYRs because they allow me to do
stroke work without full out kicking. I've had the split fins for about
3 weeks and can feel it right now!

My recommendation for an intermediate swimmer would be go for a big fin
but use them wisely. Some kicking and stroke work is good. Just don't
wear them all the time if you want to improve. Go easy too.

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I am looking to buy a pair of fins. I am an intermediate level
swimmer- swim about 3x a week. I noticed that when I swim I do not
kick as much as I should- my kicking is not strong- would say on the
weak side. Looking for a pair of fins that would be good - my pool
sells Tyr Flex Fins- or I can order Zoomers. Please advise -

thanks,

KOS

With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're barking up
the wrong tree here. What you need is a kickboard. Fins are for increasing
your speed to asses your streamlining.
If you feel you need more power from your kick what you need is a kickboard,
and an assessment of your stroke to see if you'd benefit from more kicking.
IIRC it's been recorded that some swimmers are better off just keeping their
legs up and out of the way of turbulence from the upper body.
HTH.

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're barking
up the wrong tree here. What you need is a kickboard. Fins are for
increasing your speed to asses your streamlining.
If you feel you need more power from your kick what you need is a
kickboard, and an assessment of your stroke to see if you'd benefit from
more kicking. IIRC it's been recorded that some swimmers are better off
just keeping their legs up and out of the way of turbulence from the upper
body.
HTH.

I disagree slightly. A poor kick is often to do with lack of flexibility of
the ankle and not lack of strength in the legs. Large fins with good
resistance add flexibility to the feet by forcing the feet into a position
approaching their full extension on every kick. The cumulative effect of
this is to increase flexibility and hence the effectiveness of the kick.

--
DrClean
www.DrClean.co.uk
The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

"DrClean" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're barking
up the wrong tree here. What you need is a kickboard. Fins are for
increasing your speed to asses your streamlining.
If you feel you need more power from your kick what you need is a
kickboard, and an assessment of your stroke to see if you'd benefit from
more kicking. IIRC it's been recorded that some swimmers are better off
just keeping their legs up and out of the way of turbulence from the
upper body.
HTH.

I disagree slightly. A poor kick is often to do with lack of flexibility
of the ankle and not lack of strength in the legs. Large fins with good
resistance add flexibility to the feet by forcing the feet into a position
approaching their full extension on every kick. The cumulative effect of
this is to increase flexibility and hence the effectiveness of the kick.

--
DrClean
www.DrClean.co.uk
The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

I'm not sure you'll increase flexibility with using fins, I've certainly
never used them long enough to know myself. You'll use your range of motion
that's for sure, maybe not increase it though.

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DrClean" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>
With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're
barking up the wrong tree here. What you need is a kickboard. Fins are
for increasing your speed to asses your streamlining.
If you feel you need more power from your kick what you need is a
kickboard, and an assessment of your stroke to see if you'd benefit from
more kicking. IIRC it's been recorded that some swimmers are better off
just keeping their legs up and out of the way of turbulence from the
upper body.
HTH.

I disagree slightly. A poor kick is often to do with lack of flexibility
of the ankle and not lack of strength in the legs. Large fins with good
resistance add flexibility to the feet by forcing the feet into a
position approaching their full extension on every kick. The cumulative
effect of this is to increase flexibility and hence the effectiveness of
the kick.

--
DrClean
www.DrClean.co.uk
The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

I'm not sure you'll increase flexibility with using fins, I've certainly
never used them long enough to know myself. You'll use your range of
motion that's for sure, maybe not increase it though.

BTW, what is the OP's age? I wouldn't recommend much use of fins until
they're over 23-24.
A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with endless
lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

On 15 Sep,

didgerman said:

I'm not sure you'll increase flexibility with using fins, I've certainly
never used them long enough to know myself. You'll use your range of motion
that's for sure, maybe not increase it though.

I've been using fins for the last couple of years. My ankle flexibility has
certainly increased. I now notice an increase in speed when I kick harder
(without fins), which didn't happen before. I'm also well past the first
flush of youth.

--
BD
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with endless
lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

Why do you think this is bad?

jtaylor said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with endless
lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

Why do you think this is bad?

Because the kids' knee and ankle joints are not fully formed yet, and
too much fin use might cause damage that could become permanent.

But I don't think it it is a problem, because swimming with fins
doesn't stress the joints much. Kicking with fins probably does stress
them somewhat, but only in the kind of motion are supposed to do. I
doubt the amount of kicking with fins would be enough to cause a
problem.

Breaststroke kick would be more dangerous for kids, I would think,
because it applies a repeated torque to the knees.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
endless
lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

Why do you think this is bad?

They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him once
and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
strength?
Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and that's
it, imo of course....

didgerman said:

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
endless
lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

Why do you think this is bad?

They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him once
and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
strength?

Since the beginning.

Quoted message said:

Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and that's
it, imo of course....

Yours is not the only opinion. They also strengthen the legs, increase
flexibility in the ankles, enable swimming in the correct position,
and increase stamina.

How do they help you "nail your streamlining?" They certainly
streamline your swimming, but when you take them off, you lose that
streamline.

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca:

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
endless lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.

Why do you think this is bad?

Poorly supervised use IMHO.
I am an example of this, using paddles to large for me and pushing too hard
in my younger years. The damage to my shoulder in my teens on a competitive
team is something I must manage now - even before I reach 40.

I barely use paddles at all these days, I do use zoomers however (with a
board). And fwiw, I have a virtually non-existant kick, which suits me
fine during my long-distance open-water swims.

didgerman said:

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I am looking to buy a pair of fins. I am an intermediate level
swimmer- swim about 3x a week. I noticed that when I swim I do not
kick as much as I should- my kicking is not strong- would say on the
weak side. Looking for a pair of fins that would be good - my pool
sells Tyr Flex Fins- or I can order Zoomers. Please advise -

thanks,

KOS

With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're barking up
the wrong tree here. What you need is a kickboard. Fins are for increasing
your speed to asses your streamlining.
If you feel you need more power from your kick what you need is a kickboard,
and an assessment of your stroke to see if you'd benefit from more kicking.
IIRC it's been recorded that some swimmers are better off just keeping their
legs up and out of the way of turbulence from the upper body.
HTH.

I agree absolutley with this post. Fins will in all likelyhood not
make you a better kicker. Many years of coaching has taught Terry
Laughlin of TI fame that kicking is probably the least changeable
aspect of a swimmer's stroke. He's NEVER seen a kicker go from being
poor to very good. You can improve, but not a whole lot. If you don't
kick well, your best bet with freestyle is to mimic a style that elites
who don't kick much utilize.

Having said that, I do own fins and use them. They are very useful for
improving fitness. By involving the legs and trunk much more, they put
a bigger strain on your metabolic system. I use them on stroke day -
it makes the workout fun, and I swim with the fast swimmers, which
means I get to know a bunch of people I otherwise wouldn't. And yes,
they will make you a little bit faster on srint day because you can use
a big 6-beat and not be in a "lactate haze" after only 40 yards. But
it's probably not going to improve your kick much for distance
swimming. Conditioning is what they are best at.

Eric

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
> endless
> lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.
>

Why do you think this is bad?

They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him once
and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
strength?

Since the beginning.

here, here.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and that's
it, imo of course....

Yours is not the only opinion. They also strengthen the legs, increase
flexibility in the ankles, enable swimming in the correct position,
and increase stamina.

again, here, here.

Here's a little of what I know about the benefits of training kick with
fins.

I've discussed a little of how i coach here on this group, and i'm a big
proponent of a healthy dose of volume. Part of that involves finding a way
to get that volume in while including kick and IM training. But thats
another story...simply setting the scene for ya'll as to how I came to use
zoomers so often. Also know that although I say zoomers, my swimmers use
Hydrofinz - they track better than Zoomer brand short fins i find.

I devoted about 25% of my workout to kicking with zoomers daily, which
translates to roughly 30 mins per two hour practice, or an hour a day when
they have doubles....about 2000 yards per workout. All of the swimmers
improved their kick over the course of that season ranging from 5% to 14% in
the kick test sets (and yes they trained with zoomers, but tested without
them). The flexibility about the ankle, both dorsi- and plantar flexed
increased between 2% and 9% - this isn't best guess either, we use
goniometers to test joint flexibility. I do not include any specific ankle
flexibility in our dryland program...what else caused almost 40 swimmers to
improve this way?

Anecdotally, I can tell you that in races, the increased potency of kicking
was apparent in all strokes. Backhalf and final quarter kick rates were
improved, which translated to sustained finihsing after really being
aggressive on the front end - basically, the kick held up longer than
previously. We had a monster season this summer, and I attribute this
equally to volume and kicking *with* zoomers.

These are not inexperienced swimmers either, so the improvement shocked the
hell out of me. My girls relays were 1st (200MR and 200FR) 3rd (400FR) and
4th (400MR) in the national T16 rankings. The season before although our 2MR
was still ranked 1st we were 14th in the 4MR, 8th in the 4FR and 5th in the
2FR. Very significant improvements considering we're not a long course team.

We had no injuries associated with this training. The most was getting
blisters - this was quickly remedied by investing in a pair of neoprene
booties, or bringing some socks.

So, believe whatever you want Didgerman, but it'll take a heck of a lot to
persuade me of what you have to say.

To the OP - try Hydrofinz...as I said, they track a little better, and are
made of softer rubber. And remember your socks.

Steve

diablo said:

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

Quoted message said:

I devoted about 25% of my workout to kicking with zoomers daily, which
translates to roughly 30 mins per two hour practice, or an hour a day when
they have doubles....about 2000 yards per workout. All of the swimmers
improved their kick over the course of that season ranging from 5% to 14% in
the kick test sets (and yes they trained with zoomers, but tested without
them). The flexibility about the ankle, both dorsi- and plantar flexed
increased between 2% and 9% - this isn't best guess either, we use
goniometers to test joint flexibility. I do not include any specific ankle
flexibility in our dryland program...what else caused almost 40 swimmers to
improve this way?

I agree with what you're saying, Steve - that the metabolic
conditioning of wearing fins is great. That's why your swimmers are
stronger during the back half of the race. That seems to be a much
larger positive affect than the speed, as you yourself report.
Assuming that kicking contributes a maximum of 20% of propulsion
(that's the number given on the UK/BBC website and makes some sense)
then if your swimmers improve their kick by 5%, then the potential
increase in their speed would only be around 1%. At the level of your
swimmers, that's significant. But for the average rec. swimmer, hardly
worth it. So rec swimmers focusing on kicking to improve speed is
probably going to lead to disapointment.

I agree on HydroFinz - soft as a baby's you know what and therefore
comfy. The Z2 looks interesting, however, due to it's different
flexibility in the two directions.

Eric

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

> A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
> endless
> lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.
>

Why do you think this is bad?

They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him once
and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
strength?

Since the beginning.

You realise that strength means your maximum effort, like your maximum
weight you can bench press. Swimming has nothing to do with strength at all.
Depending on how far you're going it's about power and endurance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and that's
it, imo of course....

Yours is not the only opinion.

Of course not.

They also strengthen the legs, increase

Quoted message said:

flexibility in the ankles, enable swimming in the correct position,
and increase stamina.

They'd add some strength, but they're a long winded way of doing it. Power
is what you want, and I've always found some maximum efforts with the
kickboard ok for that. As for flexibility, it varies from person to person.
But there's certainly not much to reccommend repetitive balistic movements
to increase flexibility. I must admit I can't talk from experience here
because my ankles are natrually hyper flexible, which ain't always good.....

Quoted message said:

How do they help you "nail your streamlining?" They certainly
streamline your swimming, but when you take them off, you lose that
streamline.

They give you increased speed, they displace more water behind you for very
little cost in terms of turbulence. When you're travelling at that increased
speed {faster than your race pace} you can gain an extra feel for
turbulence/resistance and learn to streamline better. In my opinion that's
what fins are best for. Trawling up and down working on your leg kick with
them is adding a lot of training 'out of position'.
But as ever, whatever works best....

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...
>
> "didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>
>> A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
>> endless
>> lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.
>>
>
> Why do you think this is bad?
>
>

They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him once
and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
strength?

Since the beginning.

You realise that strength means your maximum effort, like your maximum
weight you can bench press. Swimming has nothing to do with strength at all.
Depending on how far you're going it's about power and endurance.

Power depends on strength. P = F * v where F is force. Force = mass *
acceleration. You have to have strength to exert a force.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and that's
it, imo of course....

Yours is not the only opinion.

Of course not.

They also strengthen the legs, increase

Quoted message said:

flexibility in the ankles, enable swimming in the correct position,
and increase stamina.

They'd add some strength, but they're a long winded way of doing it. Power
is what you want, and I've always found some maximum efforts with the
kickboard ok for that.

Again, power depends on strength, and the disadvantage to using a
kickboard is that you aren't using your arms.

Quoted message said:

As for flexibility, it varies from person to person.
But there's certainly not much to reccommend repetitive balistic movements
to increase flexibility. I must admit I can't talk from experience here
because my ankles are natrually hyper flexible, which ain't always good.....

Quoted message said:

How do they help you "nail your streamlining?" They certainly
streamline your swimming, but when you take them off, you lose that
streamline.

They give you increased speed, they displace more water behind you for very
little cost in terms of turbulence. When you're travelling at that increased
speed {faster than your race pace} you can gain an extra feel for
turbulence/resistance and learn to streamline better. In my opinion that's
what fins are best for. Trawling up and down working on your leg kick with
them is adding a lot of training 'out of position'.
But as ever, whatever works best....

I don't understand your explanation. Nobody said anything about
trawling up and down. Swimming with fins isn't easier. It's faster.
Kicking with fins isn't easier. It's faster.

didgerman said:

"KOS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I am looking to buy a pair of fins. I am an intermediate level
swimmer- swim about 3x a week. I noticed that when I swim I do not
kick as much as I should- my kicking is not strong- would say on the
weak side. Looking for a pair of fins that would be good - my pool
sells Tyr Flex Fins- or I can order Zoomers. Please advise -

thanks,

KOS

With all due respect to the answers already given, I think you're barking up
the wrong tree here.

Ben Franklin invented swim fins. You either swim with fins, or you
swim with terrorists.

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

didgerman said:

"Martin Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
>"jtaylor" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]!nnrp1.uunet.ca...
>>
>> "didgerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> news:[email hidden]...
>>
>>> A pet hate of mine is watching the local swim team train kids with
>>> endless
>>> lengths using fins and paddles....grrrrrr.
>>>
>>
>> Why do you think this is bad?
>>
>>
>
>They're not using them right for a start: too many lengths, not enough
>speed. I'm not sure what the coach is hoping to achieve, I asked him
>once
>and he said 'it strengthens them up'. Since when has swimming been about
>strength?

Since the beginning.

You realise that strength means your maximum effort, like your maximum
weight you can bench press. Swimming has nothing to do with strength at
all.
Depending on how far you're going it's about power and endurance.

Power depends on strength. P = F * v where F is force. Force = mass *
acceleration. You have to have strength to exert a force.

That's true, but swimming requires little strength.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Fins are for a short blast to help you nail your streamlining, and
>that's
>it, imo of course....

Yours is not the only opinion.

Of course not.

They also strengthen the legs, increase

Quoted message said:

flexibility in the ankles, enable swimming in the correct position,
and increase stamina.

They'd add some strength, but they're a long winded way of doing it. Power
is what you want, and I've always found some maximum efforts with the
kickboard ok for that.

Again, power depends on strength, and the disadvantage to using a
kickboard is that you aren't using your arms.

How much strength do you need? It depends what distance you want to race,
but what most swimmers are after is endurance, as in the ability to perform
the maximum possible effort over the course of a race. Targetting strength
gains whilst in the pool shouldn't form the bulk of any session imo.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for flexibility, it varies from person to person.
But there's certainly not much to reccommend repetitive balistic movements
to increase flexibility. I must admit I can't talk from experience here
because my ankles are natrually hyper flexible, which ain't always
good.....

Quoted message said:

How do they help you "nail your streamlining?" They certainly
streamline your swimming, but when you take them off, you lose that
streamline.

They give you increased speed, they displace more water behind you for
very
little cost in terms of turbulence. When you're travelling at that
increased
speed {faster than your race pace} you can gain an extra feel for
turbulence/resistance and learn to streamline better. In my opinion that's
what fins are best for. Trawling up and down working on your leg kick with
them is adding a lot of training 'out of position'.
But as ever, whatever works best....

I don't understand your explanation. Nobody said anything about
trawling up and down.

No, but usually if I'm in the water on the same night as the local swim team
they put on fins and trawl up and down, the coach is happy with this and
says it will make them stronger. I think he's wrong.

Quoted message said:

Swimming with fins isn't easier. It's faster.
Kicking with fins isn't easier. It's faster.

That's right, that's why fins are good for perfecting your technique at
exagerated speeds: it's easier to get a feel for resistance when it's
exagerated beyond the norm.

Quoted message said:

Do you use fins? And what do you expect from their use?