Zocor for Diabetics ?

wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

No. Not all diabetics have cholesterol problems and even
those who do don't necessarily have to treat it with that.

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

[censored]

Necessary for all is certainly an overstatment, but
it might help if you have a problem with lipids.
There are some studies that showed an overall
benefit to taking statins in the general population,
but it's all a matter of "You pays you money and you
takes you chances". I'm sure your endo could tell
you where to find the studies he basis his opinion
on, should you ask.

Speaking only for myself,

Joe Durusau

"" <> wrote in
"]news:[email hidden]
.
com:

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

Treatment of disease always relies on a blend of available
information and clinical judgements of various kinds. How
the trade offs are valued differs between different doctors
and different patients.

There is an increasing belief, although I can't tell from
my lowly perch if it is anything like a consensus, that
several prophylactic prescriptions are indicated in the
general diabetic population. Treatment with statins, of
which Zocar is one, treatment with ace inhibitors, and
treatment with aspirin.

In the case of statins the argument goes something like
this. Heart attacks are the number 1 cause of death in
diabetics. Diabetes is an independent risk factor for heart
attack. Elevated cholesterol is an independent risk factor
for heart attack. Therefore, diabetics with elevated
cholesterol should be treated aggressively. Statins are an
effective treatment for elevated cholesterol that is
generally well tolerated. Recent trials have shown that
statin treatment reduces heart attack in people who have
already had a heart attack, which is another independent
risk factor, beyond what you would expect from just their
cholesterol lowering effects. Therefore, statins are the
first choice for treating diabetics with elevated
cholesterol. So far, there seems to be a general consensus.

Recent trials also show that lowering cholesterol levels
well beyond the current guidelines with very aggressive
statin therapy further reduces re occurrence of heart attack
in the people who have already had one. Diabetics start out
with an elevated risk of heart attack which is not unlike
those who have already had one. It makes sense, then, to
treat aggressively with statins in the case of diabetics
even if they don't have elevated cholesterol to get the
double benefit of both driving their cholesterol lower and
the non cholesterol related risk reductions.

As I said, I can't tell if this last part of the
argument represents a consensus or not. Conversation
with my doctor last visit indicated that he expected the
current cholesterol guide lines to be lowered given the
recent research.

The story with ace inhibitors is similar. They not only
improve blood pressure, they have an independent protective
effect on the kidney.

Ask your doctor to explain his reasoning. An understanding
of why he wants you to take something is not an
unreasonable request.

--
-------
Charly Coughran [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

[censored]

Check Lovastatin. I think it's cheaper than Zocor. Jon

wrote in message news:ddd90770d416009a44c7ca952a4e808f@loca-
lhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com.. .

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol.

The current thinking is that having diabetes puts you in the
same risk category for heart attack or stroke as someone who
already has coronary heart disease or its equivalent. The
results of a study published last year appeared to show that
statins like Zocor reduce this risk for diabetics, even
those who do not have high cholesterol. The conclusion was
that nearly all diabetics should be on statins. (How nice
for the pharmaceutical companies.)

I'm skeptical too, but I can't really debate with my doctor
over it. I've got high LDL, low HDL, rising blood pressures
and a family history of heart disease, which would put me at
high risk for heart disease all by themselves, so I'm giving
Lipitor a try. (Zocor made my muscles ache.) You didn't say
what your lab results are, but perhaps if you talk to your
doctor about what your risk factors are, you will feel
comfortable about deciding whether you want to take his
advice and get on Zocor or not.

Here is some reading on it:

medicinenet.comart.aspOpen ↗
3088 my.webmd.com79805.htmOpen ↗

anka

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wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

If you have a headache, you normally take something for it
(paracetamol etc). If you've NOT got a headache, you leave
the drugs in the pack. I have the same idea about ALL drugs.

How IS your cholesterol?

Beav

ankalime said:

wrote in message

-"]news:[email hidden]-
althnetwork.com..

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol.

The current thinking is that having diabetes puts you in
the same risk category for heart attack or stroke as
someone who already has coronary heart disease or its
equivalent. The results of a study published last year
appeared to show that statins like Zocor reduce this risk
for diabetics, even those who do not have high
cholesterol. The conclusion was that nearly all diabetics
should be on statins. (How nice for the pharmaceutical
companies.)

The study was likely funded by or conducted by the
pharmaceutical companies ... BJ

Hello, I take Lipitor for my high Cholesterol. But with Diet
and some exercise, mine is under control and I will be med
free soon.

Patricia "Julie Bove" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

wrote in message news:ddd90770d416009a44c7ca952a4e808f@lo-
calhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

No. Not all diabetics have cholesterol problems and even
those who do don't necessarily have to treat it with that.

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

Beav said:

wrote in message news:ddd90770d416009a44c7ca952a4e808f@lo-
calhost.talkabouthealthnetwork.com...

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the pill
for Cholesterol. My endochronologist told me that it is,
and I'm skeptical.

If you have a headache, you normally take something for
it (paracetamol etc). If you've NOT got a headache, you
leave the drugs in the pack. I have the same idea about
ALL drugs.

How IS your cholesterol?

Beav

Published studies have long since shown that prescribing
low doses of
A.C.E. inhibitors for diabetics significantly lowers the
risk of developing kidney disease, even with no
significant elevation of blood pressure. A.C.E.
inhibitors are basically considered a "standard of
care" requirement if there is any sign of reduction
of kidney function in diabetics. My Endo almost
went "ballistic" on my nephrology team for dropping
Zestril from my list of meds. They put me on Altace
after he wrote a letter demanding a written reply
(for his records) as to "why this man with his
conditions is not on an A.C.E. inhibitor." I saw
the letter.

A.C.F. inhibitors work on the blood vessels of the kidney to
help regulate blood pressures, so that may explain
why they are recommended to protect kidney function.

This has been pretty standard protocol for awhile, but it
was considered controversial when it first came out. Now
people in m.h.d. and a.s.d. mention it all of the time.
There were even grumblings a few years ago when the
Cardiologists lowered the thresholds for cholesterol, HDL,
and LDL a few years ago (my mother among them), but most
people accept the need for them now.

This is not just a recommendation from a study, it is now
recommended practice in the USA and will be considered by
governing medical bodies in most Western countries (Canada,
Australia and the E.U.).

A full article is at:

my.webmd.com98778.htmOpen ↗

Here is a quote:
***********************************************************-
************
"That advice now is part of the official practice guidelines
of the American College of Physicians, a major doctors'
group. The guidelines -- and a review of all clinical trials
of statins in patients with diabetes -- appear in the April
20, 2004 issue of the ACP's Annals of Internal Medicine.
Vincenza Snow, MD, the ACP's senior medical associate for
science policy, is lead author of the new recommendations."
***********************************************************-
**************

What is boils down to is that heart disease is so prevalent
among diabetics that the new standards require physicians to
consider statins if a diabetic has even one out of 6 risk
factors for cardiac disease or stroke. Just being over the
age of 55 is one criteria, hence the reports that "nearly
all" Type 2 diabetics should take statins.

Several large studies in the U.K. and the U.S.A. were
reviewed before the A.C.P. adopted these recommendations.
Some studies were stopped early because the benefits of the
statins were so clear cut that it would be unethical to let
the control groups continue on placebos. This happened to me
on a study of statins for organ transplant recipients.

My study and the studies with diabetics revealed that beyond
just lowering cholesterol and improving the balance between
HDL and LDL, there was also some overall "protective"
property to statins. Even if their cholesterol levels were
not significantly elevated to begin with, those diabetics
taking statins still had much lower incidences of heart
attacks and strokes than similar patients in the control
groups. In my group of organ transplant recipients, there
was a further increase in the lifespan of the grafted organ
irregardless of how much the cholesterol was lowered.

If people want to believe that the A.C.P. is simply another
part of a vast conspiracy to sell more drugs, than no amount
of studies anybody does will be convincing.

Dennis (Type 2, Kidney Transplant 1995)

BJ in Texas said:

ankalime said:

wrote in message

-"]news:[email hidden]-
althnetwork.com..

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Is it necessary for all diabetics to take Zocor, the
pill for Cholesterol.

The current thinking is that having diabetes puts you in
the same risk category for heart attack or stroke as
someone who already has coronary heart disease or its
equivalent. The results of a study published last year
appeared to show that statins like Zocor reduce this risk
for diabetics, even those who do not have high
cholesterol. The conclusion was that nearly all diabetics
should be on statins. (How nice for the pharmaceutical
companies.)

The study was likely funded by or conducted by the
pharmaceutical companies ... BJ

The other part of it is that, with all our dietary
restrictions, adding another set of dietary restrictions to
lower our cholesterol is potentially quite burdensome. So
rather than screwing further with what we eat, perhaps it's
easier to take the Zocor.

I know my cholesterol has been going up over the last few
years and my doctor suggested Zocor, and I'm in my 40's.

As a result of several studies over the last couple years,
it has become apparent that the lower you drive the LDL
cholesterol, the lower your risk of heart attack.

The Heart Protection Study (HPS) was performed in people
with diabetes (mostly type 2's) and demonstrated those
taking 40mg of Zocor had a 25% drop in coronary events
compared to placebo. This was in people whose LDL
cholesterols were in a desirable range to begin with.

More recently , the "Prove-It" trial compared Lipitor 80mg
vs Pravachol 40mg. The Lipitor group got their LDL down to
64 and the Pravachol group LDL averaged about 95.

Patients taking 80 milligrams of Lipitor were 16% less
likely to die, have a heart attack, undergo bypass or
angioplasty surgery, or develop worsening chest pain than
those taking 40 milligrams of Pravachol. This was over a 2
year period.

The take home messages are: For cholesterol, lower is
usually better regardless of where you are starting.

For people with diabetes, the target LDL is now 100 or less.
This is a level that is difficult to achieve without a
statin for most people.

Statins, such as Zocor, have demonstrated a 25% reduction
in coronary events even in patients with cholesterols
called "normal".

Take Zocor ? You decide.

William C Biggs, MD

"William C Biggs MD" < wrote in message .com... good post
snipped for brevity

Quoted message said:

Statins, such as Zocor, have demonstrated a 25% reduction
in coronary events even in patients with cholesterols
called "normal".

Take Zocor ? You decide.

9 months ago my Chol levels came in at 5.25.......... trigs
normal, LDL normal, HDL high and normal but total Chol was
.25 over the 5.00 that is recommended (Canadian figures)

i started on Zocor at my Dr's advice...... a lab test for
liver and muscle enzymes was done pre-med taking, then again
at the 6 week mark for comparison and recently for the 9
month follow up........... i'm one of the many people who
can take a statin with no ill side affects (we DO exist)

given my family history of heart disease being the cause of
death (withOUT diabetes as a co-morbid factor) i will keep
my Chol as low as possible

new Chol results...... total Chol is 4.00, trigs have
dropped to .70 (can't get much better) and LDL has dropped
to 2.44 (lab reference 2.0 to 3.4) and the good old HDL is
still nice and high at 1.78 (normal over .90)

i'm thrilled and will continue the med for the rest of my
life (even though i'm not sure what caused my Chol to go
high in the first place!)

--
Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet
/server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More
info: diabetic-talk.orgdiabetic-talk.orgOpen ↗

Good for you!

Most people tolerate statins just fine. My letter published
in the WSJ dealt with the minority of people who didn't
tolerate statins being shut out of Pfizer's new HDL lowering
drug. It didn't mean to give the misimpression that most
people can't take statins.

Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2k8r74F17t862U1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"William C Biggs MD" < wrote in message .com... good post
snipped for brevity

Quoted message said:

Statins, such as Zocor, have demonstrated a 25%
reduction in coronary events even in patients with
cholesterols called "normal".

Take Zocor ? You decide.

9 months ago my Chol levels came in at 5.25..........
trigs normal, LDL normal, HDL high and normal but total
Chol was .25 over the 5.00 that is recommended (Canadian
figures)

i started on Zocor at my Dr's advice...... a lab test for
liver and muscle enzymes was done pre-med taking, then
again at the 6 week mark for comparison and recently for
the 9 month follow up........... i'm one of

the

Quoted message said:

many people who can take a statin with no ill side affects
(we DO exist)

given my family history of heart disease being the cause
of death (withOUT diabetes as a co-morbid factor) i will
keep my Chol as low as possible

new Chol results...... total Chol is 4.00, trigs have
dropped to .70

(can't

Quoted message said:

get much better) and LDL has dropped to 2.44 (lab
reference 2.0 to 3.4)

and

Quoted message said:

the good old HDL is still nice and high at 1.78 (normal
over .90)

i'm thrilled and will continue the med for the rest of my
life (even

though

Quoted message said:

i'm not sure what caused my Chol to go high in the
first place!)

--
Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server
irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: diabetic-diabetic-Open ↗
talk.org/

"William C Biggs MD" > wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Good for you!

Most people tolerate statins just fine. My letter
published in the WSJ

dealt

Quoted message said:

with the minority of people who didn't tolerate statins
being shut out of Pfizer's new HDL lowering drug. It
didn't mean to give the misimpression that most people
can't take statins.

Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

ok..... HDL LOWERING drug?????? my HDL is 1.78 well over the

Quoted message said:

90 that is required

why would/do we want to lower our HDL cholesterol...... my
ratio is 2.6

curious... thanks in advance

kate

Tiger Lily,

I misspoke, or mis-typed.

I meant HDL raising drug, and I was referring to
torcepatrib.

Thanks for catching the error.

William C Biggs, MD

"Tiger Lily" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2ke4fqF1akt5U1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"William C Biggs MD" > wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Good for you!

Most people tolerate statins just fine. My letter
published in the WSJ

dealt

Quoted message said:

with the minority of people who didn't tolerate statins
being shut out

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pfizer's new HDL lowering drug. It didn't mean to
give the

misimpression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that most people can't take statins.

Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

ok..... HDL LOWERING drug?????? my HDL is 1.78 well over
the >90 that is required

why would/do we want to lower our HDL cholesterol...... my
ratio is 2.6

curious... thanks in advance

kate

oh whew!!!!!! i'm not going nuts :-) (that point remains to be determined)

thank you for the clarification

"William C Biggs MD" <> wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Tiger Lily,

I misspoke, or mis-typed.

I meant HDL raising drug, and I was referring to
torcepatrib.

Thanks for catching the error.

William C Biggs, MD

"Tiger Lily" wrote in message...

Quoted message said:

"William C Biggs MD" > wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Good for you!

Most people tolerate statins just fine. My letter
published in the WSJ

dealt

Quoted message said:

with the minority of people who didn't tolerate
statins being shut out

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pfizer's new HDL lowering drug. It didn't mean to
give the

misimpression

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that most people can't take statins.

Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

ok..... HDL LOWERING drug?????? my HDL is 1.78 well over
the >90 that is required

why would/do we want to lower our HDL cholesterol......
my ratio is 2.6

curious... thanks in advance

kate