Zipp 404 vs Mavic carbones?

KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of the 404
automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>

" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

I think you need to think about reliability unless you have a team car behind
you with a load of wrenches and wheels.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
the 404
automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>

" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!

PH

Philip Holman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
the 404
automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>

" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!

PH

No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
rolls or handlebars snap etc etc

Stan Cox

On 09 Oct 2004 13:25:31 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of the 404
automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>

" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

I think you need to think about reliability unless you have a team car behind
you with a load of wrenches and wheels.

The reliablity issue is a straw man in talking about the two wheels in
question. Both can use perfectly reasonable weight/durability tires
and both are plenty strong enough for racing over any but the most
extremely bad roads. And gluing tires reliably is not rocket
science.

The drawback of the two wheels in question is high price, not lack of
reliablity.

JT

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JFT-<< The reliablity issue is a straw man in talking about the two wheels in
question. Both can use perfectly reasonable weight/durability tires
and both are plenty strong enough for racing over any but the most
extremely bad roads. >><BR><BR>

Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we true,
repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.

I was commenting on the statement, "forgetting about durability issues'. ANY
bicycle component has certain 'durability issues' that MUST be considered
before ya lay $ on them. To not do so means you may be disappointed when you
'break'...

JFT-<< The drawback of the two wheels in question is high price, not lack of
reliablity. >><BR><BR>

High price and low durability when compared to other wheels and low, low
performance gains per dollar.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Philip Holman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
the 404
automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>

" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!

PH

No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
rolls or handlebars snap etc etc

Stan Cox

I find that very hard to believe.

PH

On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we true,
repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.

But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
trued, huh?

JT

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Philip Holman said:

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Philip Holman said:

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight of
>the 404
>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
>
>
>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...

Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!

PH

No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
rolls or handlebars snap etc etc

Stan Cox

I find that very hard to believe.

PH

Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
someone commented on this recently 🙂

Stan Cox

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Philip Holman said:

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Philip Holman wrote:

>"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>
>
>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight
>>of the 404
>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
>>
>>
>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
>
>Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
>
>PH
>

No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
rolls or handlebars snap etc etc

Stan Cox

I find that very hard to believe.

PH

Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
someone commented on this recently 🙂

Let me clarify my position. What I find hard to believe is that more
people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
benefits of that equipment. It's not so much as having an advantage as
being on a par with the other riders. I count being on a par as a
winning benefit of the equipment. Some would like to see a basic
standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. As long
as equipment is available to all I see no unfair advantage. One could
argue that expensive equipment is not available to all simply due to
cost but that's a whole new thread more suitable for discussion in a
different NG.
PH

Philip Holman said:

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Philip Holman said:

"Stan Cox" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>Philip Holman wrote:
>
>
>
>>"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>>news:[email hidden]...
>>
>>
>>
>>>KB-<< Forgetting about durability issues, does the lighter weight
>>>of the 404
>>>automatically make it a better choice for road racing?? >><BR><BR>
>>>
>>>
>>>" More races have been lost due to equipment than won"...
>>
>>Nice one. Isn't that because there is only one winner per race!
>>
>>PH
>>
>
>No, what he means is people who are away and winning when say a tub
>rolls or handlebars snap etc etc
>
>Stan Cox

I find that very hard to believe.

PH

Ok point me at the races that have been won due to superior equipment.
I'll give you Greg Lemond in the TDF for a start. One of the things
that is great about cycling is that its not about the bike. I think
someone commented on this recently 🙂

Let me clarify my position. What I find hard to believe is that more
people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
benefits of that equipment. It's not so much as having an advantage as
being on a par with the other riders. I count being on a par as a
winning benefit of the equipment. Some would like to see a basic
standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. As long
as equipment is available to all I see no unfair advantage. One could
argue that expensive equipment is not available to all simply due to
cost but that's a whole new thread more suitable for discussion in a
different NG.
PH

This is a discussion we should take to the bar to discuss over a few
drinks 🙂

Stan Cox

I asked the original question, but responding from a different account....
First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...
Second, I said 'reliability aside' simply because I believe that both are
reliable enough, and I have used Zipps in harsh road conditions and have
never had a problem. So I am simply looking for comments on the peformance
of each wheelset, and wondering if the weight difference really matters that
much?
Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past Summer,
going to be available any time soon?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming when we

true,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all the time.

But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
trued, huh?

JT

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DB said:

I asked the original question, but responding from a different account....
First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...

No one in this group is required to answer questions.

JT

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Philip-<< What I find hard to believe is that more
people have lost due to equipment failure than they did due to the
benefits of that equipment. >><BR><BR>

The gent that broke his chain in the TdF, Tyler breaking his rear wheel, Fignon
breaking a crank arm in a break away, lots of examples...Only one where he won
due to equipment was Greg, and even that is open for discussion since Fignon
was having saddle sore issues....

Philip-<< Some would like to see a basic
standardization of equipment in racing and I'm not one of them. >><BR><BR>

It is, weight limits, double triangle framesets, no trei bars, same size wheels
for a bike, etc.

Way too much importance on equipment, way to much influence from the marketing
and advertising department .

This silly light stuff does not put a person on a bicycle and keep them there.

Like a gent that rode for Molteni and Merckx, " Eddy can win on my bike, I
can't win on his."

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

JFT-<< But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
trued, huh? >><BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. If they are light, light they need more
attention than a heavier wheel...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

DB-<< Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past
Summer,
going to be available any time soon? >><BR><BR>

First of the year or so, $1200 or so. Really just a whizbang carbon-y hub, with
a carbon faring on an aluminum rim. About 1800+ grams.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

On 11 Oct 2004 14:16:45 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

JFT-<< But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to be
trued, huh? >><BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. If they are light, light they need more
attention than a heavier wheel...

So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? That seems
to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
weaker. Period.

Which is way too simplistic.

JT

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JFT-<< So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? >><BR><BR>

Nope, not saying that at all.

JFT-<< That seems
to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
weaker. Period. >><BR><BR>

Nope not my point. My point is that durability needs to be considered in a
light weight 'racing' wheel.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted message said:

Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past

Summer,

Quoted message said:

going to be available any time soon?

Already available in Europe (Holland), 895 euros.

"DB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I asked the original question, but responding from a different

account....

Quoted message said:

First, thanks no one for answering my question!!!!! Geez...
Second, I said 'reliability aside' simply because I believe that

both are

Quoted message said:

reliable enough, and I have used Zipps in harsh road conditions and

have

Quoted message said:

never had a problem. So I am simply looking for comments on the

peformance

Quoted message said:

of each wheelset, and wondering if the weight difference really

matters that

Quoted message said:

much?
Also, are the new all carbon Carbones, as used at the TDF this past

Summer,

Quoted message said:

going to be available any time soon?

"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10 Oct 2004 13:04:12 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Sure they are......'plenty strong enough'...Guess I was dreaming

when we

Quoted message said:

true,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

repair and otherwise take care of these and other wheels....all

the time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But there are plenty of racing wheels that rarely or never need to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trued, huh?

JT

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[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

JFT-<< So are you saying that whenever anyone has a wheel lighter than
someone else's they're using equipment that is too light? >><BR><BR>

Nope, not saying that at all.

JFT-<< That seems
to be your point - heaver is better because lighter is slightly
weaker. Period. >><BR><BR>

Nope not my point. My point is that durability needs to be considered in a
light weight 'racing' wheel.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

The part of the question that has not been focused on is "which is
better for road racing." And that depends on the course and the style
of rider. If it's a hilly course, lightweight will be valuable. If
it's flat, a couple hundred grams won't make any difference. Apart
from weight, the other considerations are aero and stiffness. If
you're a breakaway rider, you'll want some good aero wheels b/c you'll
be out on your own more (even if in a small group you'll be taking way
more pulls than if you're sitting in so you'll want the aero benefit).
If you're a sprinter, aero won't be so important b/c if you're always
glued to someone's wheel, aerodynamics is less important (which is not
to say it's irrelevant - I wouldn't want to ride a 36 hole open pro
even if I planned on sitting in), and you'll want a stiff wheel to get
the most bang out of your sprint. For me, the biggest challenge in
selecting racing wheels is finding something that's stiff enough, but
I'm 210 lbs and do mostly crits, so stiffness is even more important
b/c of all the sprinting out of corners.

All that said, I haven't ridden either set of wheels. I have lots of
toys and about 5 wheelsets, but I have never considered the Zipps or
Carbones to be worth the huge price tag. That's my two cents - Glenn