YourBuddy: Anti-Semite?

Fritz Wuehler said:

tell [email hidden] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants on usenet

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
the butt".

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Fritz Wuehler <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

tell [email hidden] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants on usenet

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway? They are NOT good allies. They continue to use too
much force against the Palestinians, exascerbating the conflict. Ariel Sharon has been lobbying
for the release of Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the US for Israel. Good allies dont do that. Not
to mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea......Screw Israel, the
spying [censored]. Its nice that they sell military tech to China,...<

Congressional investigations have showm that Israel has sold primarily its OWN technology to China
and India. In fact, a fair percentage of America's cutting edge technologies inside of many of its
"Smart" weapons come from Israelis own potent R&D labs. Ask Pentagon experts about some of the stuff
we've been dropping in Afghanistan and Iraq, who engineered a lot of it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
the butt".

You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy should
not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country which
has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.

Peter

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East
2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
etc. as you
3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the [censored] you've pulled worldwide
4) We have a large and useful technology sector that could help you
5) We have the know-how to make your weapons more efficient
6) We have the innovativeness to give the world numerous inventions: drip irrigation, magnetic
cards, instant internet communication, etc.

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They are NOT good allies.

We are better allies than you are.

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They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians

Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

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exascerbating the conflict.

What exacerbates the conflict is when the civilised world makes concessions to terrorists.

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Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard

Good thing too. His imprisonment is an embarrassment on the American judicial system.

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who spied on the US for Israel.

Pollard saved countless Israeli and numerous American lives.

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Good allies dont do that.

All countries spy on their allies, especially you.

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Not to mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea.......

What about the US' transfer of military technology to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, and
China as well.

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The thing is, why should a superpower do the bidding of a dinky little useless country
like Israel?

They definitely do not. The US has tried to sell Israel up the river numerous times; beginning in
1956 with the forcing of a withdrawal from Sinai up until today with America calling for "restraint"
and insisting on a "Road Map" that will only prolong the intifadhah.

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They have shown themselves to not be trustworthy allies

You should be showering us with nothing but praise for what we did in 1981 in Usiraq. Can you
imagine how this war or the last war against Iraq would have been had Saddam had the technology that
YOU were ready to let him have?

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They receive more US aid than any other country.

We use it more efficiently than any other country.

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Do they need more aid than, say, a country like Romania?

Again, we use it more efficiently...and we have a better civil rights record and a tradition of
democracy.

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I just want to know what makes Israel so special.

Read the top of my message for a small number of the reasons

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Why do we allow the Israelis to develop the same WMDs we are going to war with Iraq over?

7) We are not developing the same WMDs
8) We would never use the WMDs we do develop unless we needed to, whereas Saddam has shown little
hesitation to GAS HIS OWN POPULACE!

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Is it because the Israeli cause is a noble one?

Yes. The right of a people to live in a safe democracy in their own homeland seems like a pretty
noble cause to me.

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The US doesnt support apartheid

They used to, both in their own country and in South Africa.

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Why is it OK in Israel?

Israel is NOT an apartheid state.
9) In South Africa, Blacks could not vote. In Israel, non-Jews CAN vote.
10) In South Africa, Blacks had less rights than Whites. In Israel, non-Jews have THE SAME
rights as Jews.
11) In South Africa, Blacks only could live in prescribed areas. In Israel, non-Jews are entitled to
live anywhere they wish.
12) In South Africa, Blacks could not get an education with Whites. In Israel, non-Jews can get an
education with Jews if they so choose, and usually do in the case of university.
13) In South Africa, there was segregation of everything from public walkways to drinking fountains.
In Israel, no such thing exists.
14) In South Africa, Blacks could not under any circumstances be treated as Whites. In Israel,
non-Jews can be treated as Jews if they converted...of course that would do nothing except get
their children drafted!

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Of course, this presupposes that being Jewish is a race, not a religion.

"Jewish" is not a race. Jews are an ETHNIC group, within the Semitic race...the same as the Arabs.

"Jewish" is not a religion. Judaism is a religion, to which many Jews do not subscribe.

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Ive heard enough people describe themselves as being "half Jewish" that I > assume its a race.

A person can be "half-Irish", does that make "Irish" a race?

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Therefore, Israel is an apartheid state.

To compare the freedoms that Israeli non-Jews enjoy to the sufferings of the non-Whites in South
Africa is infinitely insulting to the apartheid experience and the struggle against it.

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The only reason for the United States unwavering support for Israel

US support for Israel is unfortunately not unwavering.

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(which only serves to fuel the hatred of the Muslim states)

15. Most Muslim states are allies of the US
16. Many Muslim states are at peace with Israel
17. Doing the right thing is better than trying to make everyone happy.

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of which I can think is the massive amounts of campaign contributions the > pro-Israel lobby makes
to candidates on both sides.

What about the massive amounts of campaign contributions the anti-Israel oil companies make to
candidates on both sides?

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Look at what happened to Congressman Moran when he dared to suggest that pro-Israel Jewish
Americans were exerting influence to push this "war".

The man was not only being idiotically wrong, he was being extremely racist. Imagine if he said
something like "The Hispanics and their lobby control our government,"...wouldn't that be racist
too? How is that any different?

And besides, why would you defend someone who assaulted an unarmed 8 year old?

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He has basically been told his political career is over

Good.

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just for speaking the truth.

Jews are just as split on the war as the general public.

-Yissaskhar

Peter Gardner said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
the butt".

You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy
should not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country which
has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.

All true enough, though I'd argue that Israel is miles ahead of Turkey and Iran in terms of
democratic process.

I would HIGHLY recommend seeing the movie 'Secret Ballot' if you want to see some of the challenges
ahead of fledgling democracies in the region (it's an Iranian movie). Don't rent it if you're in the
mood for car chases and shootouts - it's s... l.... o... w, but the message and glimpse into Iranian
democracy is well worth the time (and rental fee).

It's one of those rare movies that makes you think there just may be hope for the region yet (though
it's hardly a 'Remember the Titans' feel-good style movie).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

"JGB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fritz Wuehler <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tell [email hidden] how you feel about his anti-Semitic rants

on usenet

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway? They are NOT good allies.

They

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

continue to use too much force against the Palestinians, exascerbating

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conflict. Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard, who spied on the
US for Israel. Good allies dont do that. Not

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mention Israels transfer of military technology to China and North Korea......Screw Israel, the
spying [censored]. Its nice that they sell

military tech to China,...<

Quoted message said:

Congressional investigations have showm that Israel has sold primarily its OWN technology to China
and India.

We can expect our congressmen to be honest on this issue after they have been bought and payed for
by special interests that are favorable to Israel. US weapons techonolgy that has been sold by
Israel to China that has found it's way into things like the Silk Worm cruise missile. Cluster bomb
technology was sold to Chile by Israel that eventually found it's way to Iraq. Israel continues to
sell China weapons technology from it's canceled Lavi fighter program. The Lavi fighter program used
US weapons technology and was funded by the US taxpayer. Even though Israel improves upon the
technology does not give them the right to sell it to other countries.

In fact, a fair percentage of

Quoted message said:

America's cutting edge technologies inside of many of its "Smart" weapons come from Israelis own
potent R&D labs. Ask Pentagon experts about some of the stuff we've been dropping in Afghanistan
and Iraq, who engineered a lot of it.

You mean like this piece of [censored]: cbsnews.commain147988.shtmlOpen ↗

--
"Israel is not economically self-sufficient and depends on borrowing to maintain its economy."
-Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, R-Florida pro-Israeli congresswoman

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Mark Hickey wrote:
| Peter Gardner <[email hidden]> wrote:
|
|
|>>>Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?
|>>
|>>Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region? Ya s'pose? Why do we support
|>>Taiwan or South Korea? They can both be pains in the butt - but they're "our kind of pains in
|>>the butt".
|>
|>You have a pretty narrow definition of "the region", which apparently excludes Turkey, which is
|>fairly democratic, and Iran, which is a _lot_ more democratic than most people think. While
|>certainly both of those countries (and Israel as well) have serious problems, their democracy
|>should not be ignored. Iran, interestingly, is the middle eastern country which has had the least
|>involvement from the US in the last couple of decades, and also is the middle eastern country
|>which has made the most progress towards democracy in that time.
|
|
| All true enough, though I'd argue that Israel is miles ahead of Turkey and Iran in terms of
| democratic process.

That's open for debate...

This is from what I've heard speaking to someone who was born and raised in the middle east (Egypt).

START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
those... then you're out of luck...

The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
privileges.

END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

The US News Media is often not a very reliable source of information (I hope you all knew that 😉 ).
Therefore, how things actually are don't get accurately represented on the 6pm news. I'm not saying
that the above opinion is completely accurate. Rather, the middle ground is most likely where the
truth lies.

IMHO, we should give up the unilateral support of Israel and hold them more accountable for their
transgressions. We should still support them against people who would destroy them, but we shouldn't
turn a blind eye to their actions.

george
- --
[email hidden]
- --
privon.comprivon.comOpen ↗
- --
"A society without religion is like a vessel without compass."
- Napoleon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.0 (MingW32) Comment:
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"George Privon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
those... then you're out of luck...

The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
privileges.

END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

Eh? Its pretty much fact isn't it?

"Yissaskhar Ben-Tzion" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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They are NOT good allies.

We are better allies than you are.

Wow, theres a statement.

Quiz: Who was it this week that described an american pilot as - a cowboy, out having fun, with no
regard to human life?

Quoted message said:

Ummm, could it be because they're the one democracy in the region?

Probably there are other reasons that have to do with politics inside the USA.

"Democracies" that only treat some people democratically and treat outsiders and neighbors without
democratic guarantees, I have a difficult time considering them democracies.

I have a hard time believing that we are a "free" nation when we imprison thousands of people off
shore and give them no access to legal support.

Democracy and freedom cannot just be for citizens and/or the chosen. It is a concept that must be
extended to everyone everywhere.

Jon Isaacs

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Quoted message said:

They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians

Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

The old saying is that "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Yes the US has been guilty over the years of abuses, many abuses. And many citizens of the US are
disgusted with our history of self-centered manipulative foriegn policy and intervention. If the US
is indeed the great bastion of freedom and democracy that it claims to be, then behavior like the
support for the murder of Allende in Chile would just not happen.

The current issues with Saddam Hussian are just problems with another one of our operatives whom
went astray.

But we are a big country so our sphere of influence is large and our abuses large.

But this does not justify abuses by smaller countries, both are bad.

Peace does not come from fighting. Peace comes from understanding and forgiveness.

The middle east is the "cradle of civilization" and has the oldest problems of bickering neighbors.
This has been going on for thousands of years and will continue until some of the neighbors realize
that they need to forgive past aggressions and move into the future. Recollecting past aggressions
and reacting to new ones is an endless chain.

Compassion, forgiveness and understanding.

Jon Isaacs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East
2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
etc. as you
3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the [censored] you've pulled worldwide
4) We have a large and useful technology sector that could help you
5) We have the know-how to make your weapons more efficient
6) We have the innovativeness to give the world numerous inventions: drip irrigation, magnetic
cards, instant internet communication, etc.

As an atheist Australian, allow me to add:

7) The Jews have contributed profoundly to the betterment of the human race, in science, music,
philosophy, entertainment and many other fields; the world quite clearly "owes them a living".
They have given us much; lets at least give them a pissy litle patch of desert to call their own.

8) The Israelis are not the agressors. The Arabs have tried to wipe them off the map from the day
Israel was proclaimed. If they do some pretty unflamatory things, they have the reality of
suicide bombers killing their families every day. How would American's feel if Sept 11th happened
every year, or how would Australia feel about Indonesia if it let a Bali happen every year and
made no attempt to bring the perpetrators to justice. Israel deserves our support because they
deserve the right to live in peace.

9) They took a patch of desert and turned it into a high tech, irrigated, developed and highly
productive country. They deserve our support because they are good managers and custodians.

Peter Webb

In article <[email hidden]>, "Peter Webb"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East

Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) We share the same values of rule of law, minority rights, due process, independent judiciary,
etc. as you

Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

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3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the [censored] you've pulled worldwide

Because Israel has often been an accomplice. Not to mention that it is an apartheid state, in many
aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

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of the human race, in science, music, philosophy, entertainment

You mean Karl Marx?

"lysis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1049381742.813091@athprx02...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Peter Webb"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East

Wrong: Israel is an apartheid state, in many aspects worse than what South Africa used to be.

1) Wrong, as usual.

2) Apartheid would still exist in SA if it were not for the US sanctions.

"lysis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1049381742.813091@athprx02...

Quoted message said:

You mean Karl Marx?

No, the people mentioned here:

greece's atrocities revealed

observer.co.uk0,6903,868843,00.htmlOpen ↗

In rec.bicycles.misc W K <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Quiz: Who was it this week that described an american pilot as - a cowboy, out having fun, with no
: regard to human life?

an english tank commander after an A-10 pilot shot at him .. twice. with a few 12 year old kids
around, iirc. that was on either the bbc or the economist.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

"W K" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"George Privon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

START_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

The state of Israel is very democratic... if you're Jewish and an Israeli citizen. If you're not
those... then you're out of luck...

The "arabs" who live in Israel are second class citizens. They don't have the same rights and
privileges.

END_OTHER_GUYS_OPINION

Eh? Its pretty much fact isn't it?

Well, I don't have first hand experience. So I didn't want to make an absolute statement.

george

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Why should we have ties with Israel anyway?

As an Israeli, allow me to answer.
1) We are the only democracy in the Middle East

Although it appears Israeli Arabs are still second-class citizens. In a recent election Sharon's
government tried to have two Arab Knesset candidates removed from the ballot. That this was
unsuccessful is to Israel's credit, however.

Quoted message said:

3) We have not vocally criticised you for all the [censored] you've pulled worldwide

Of course. To do so would instantly cut off the billions of dollars of aid Israel receives from the
US each year.

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They continue to use too much force against the Palestinians

Too much force? Compared to your suppression of conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Sudan,
Vietnam, and virtually all of Latin America...we barely have used any force.

And I suspect that our present adventure in Iraq will eventually turn into the kind of violent
stand-off Israel has with the occupied terrirtoies.

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Ariel Sharon has been lobbying for the release of Jonathan Pollard

Good thing too. His imprisonment is an embarrassment on the American judicial system.

Tell ya what... Maybe we can trade. You can have Pollard and we'll put Sharon in jail in his place.
Sabbra and Shatila ring a bell?

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Why do we allow the Israelis to develop the same WMDs we are going to war with Iraq over?

1) We are not developing the same WMDs

No. Israel has a known, established nuclear program while Iraq does not.

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2) We would never use the WMDs we do develop unless we needed to, whereas Saddam has shown little
hesitation to GAS HIS OWN POPULACE!

Using our money abd weapons, no less! I wonder where all these self-righteous war-mongers were in
the early 1980's when the US left was protesting President Reagan's decision to fund Saddam?

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Is it because the Israeli cause is a noble one?

Yes. The right of a people to live in a safe democracy in their own homeland seems like a pretty
noble cause to me.

Agreed, and I'm sure the Palestinians feel the same way!

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Israel is NOT an apartheid state.
1) In South Africa, Blacks could not vote. In Israel, non-Jews CAN vote.
2) In South Africa, Blacks had less rights than Whites. In Israel, non-Jews have THE SAME rights
as Jews.

Except in the occupied territiories, where you can be randomly shot and/or have your
home/farm/business bombed or bulldozed out of existence.

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3) In South Africa, Blacks only could live in prescribed areas. In Israel, non-Jews are entitled
to live anywhere they wish.

Except in the occupied territories, where curfews and travel restrictions last for months.

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4) In South Africa, Blacks could not get an education with Whites. In Israel, non-Jews can get an
education with Jews if they so choose, and usually do in the case of university.

Except in the occupied territories, where you're lucky to get a few weeks of school any given year
before they are closed and/or destroyed again.

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And besides, why would you defend someone who assaulted an unarmed 8 year old?

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He has basically been told his political career is over

Good.

So was Sharon after Sabbra/Shatila but look where he is now...

--

-John ([email hidden])

In article said:

an english tank commander after an A-10 pilot shot at him .. twice. with a few 12 year old kids
around, iirc. that was on either the bbc or the economist.

He must have been on drugs: either amphetamine or nandrolone (or both).